New shooting mechanics... I don't get the problem

[tinpanalley]

I'm watching lots of videos on Youtube, the official one by 2K to get the shooting and how it works. Aside from it being really confusing (because I don't think that visually the meter is a good choice of UI for what the new mechanism is), I'm not sure I get what people's problem is with it? Can someone maybe explain to me physically and from a UI/controls perspective what's not well designed about it?

My issue for example is that when I see a meter, I think 'left means too far left, right means too far right, on the line is perfect'. But left is too fast and right is too slow... how does that make sense? So is that what people don't like?
And even if that is the case, I'm sure I've hit the center perfectly and still gotten it to be that greyish yellow. So, did I do something wrong?

[dante24]

I've actually turned the shot aiming off on all fronts as aiming may work for jump shots but definitely not for layups. after you've crossed a defender evaded the help and then i've got to aim and time my layup?

I get that 2k want to make the game more competitive and create a skills gap which I definitely enjoy but basketball is a fast paced sport so you have to be delicate where you implement timing and aiming in the gameplay. But with the aiming off I like the change of having the shot stick pressed only down to take a jumper. Only thing is we lose the ability to do banked shots and other variations easily but i like the change

[Patr1ck]

It can be incredibly difficult when your timing is off, because it seems to throw your aiming off as well. When you release the stick for timing too early it will still think you are aiming. I have gotten better results pushing up on the stick to shoot after pulling down rather than aiming and releasing, but it could be a placebo effect.

[tinpanalley]

It can be incredibly difficult when your timing is off, because it seems to throw your aiming off as well. When you release the stick for timing too early it will still think you are aiming. I have gotten better results pushing up on the stick to shoot after pulling down rather than aiming and releasing, but it could be a placebo effect.

I loaded up Lakers Vs Celtics, the PC version, a couple of nights ago. Every now and then I like to load up an old sports game that I spent hours on when I was younger. Because you can get stuck in the trajectory of how games develop and forget that there is something in the past you liked a lot. But the next game changes and then the next game and the next game. Anyway.. I was playing and had moments of absolute bliss stopping, setting, and holding down a button and letting go at the height of my jump. I know a stick is more like real movement (except, well, it's not at all because we don't have spring action in our elbow joints) but I've realised that the games I like most are not the ones whose controls best mirror real life (after all does anyone play The Show with analog pitching anymore?) but rather the ones that have logically placed controls such that they're the last thing on my mind when I'm playing. There's a relaxation, a total calm when playing NBA2K using just the buttons for shooting. The same calm you get from playing Lakers Vs Celtics except everything else about the 2K game is better because it's been 30 years. I don't know, for the last day I've just been playing NBA2K with button shooting and I've started actually playing the game.

[tinpanalley]

Ok, I'm trying to wrap my head around this new mechanic but also how it relates to timing being real % or user.
I was not understanding what people were saying happens with real % timing. But, I think I know what the problem is. People not expressing themselves clearly.

It would appear that, NO, Real% doesn't care when you let go. But proximity of defenders, shot percentage, openness, distance, movement, etc and then sliders determine your success rate.

And then user timing means you need to know when to let go at the height of a jump, understanding that the animation of each player varies (I suppose this however only works if the players shoot EXACTLY like they do in real life, because otherwise if their release is different then it impacts their ability to shoot like their real life counterpart... I mean, if we're going for realism, then...). But this isn't exactly going to guarantee you realism because it also means that if your timing is off or you're not good at hitting accuracy meters, then you could make Curry or Lowry shoot like a bench warmer.

Then the final thing to add is, if people think real% isn't realistic, then why would they be so violently opposed to the green meter? I mean at the very least you would just turn it off if you found it so offensive wouldn't you? The game doesn't punish you for not using it, does it? I don't understand the anger and nobody is able to explain it to me. Now I only play offline. Is this something that becomes contentious online? Is that what it is? And let's ignore that for a second.. how is this new meter any different from the green splashes we've had the past few years?

[Andrew]

My main issue with the shot mechanics this year - and I think it's a complaint a lot of people share - is that they're inconsistent. I've missed shot after shot in the good release (but not Green) zone, which should still be high percentage, while making free throws and threes alike more consistently with releases outside the zone (which shouldn't be the case). It feels like the tuning is off in that regard.

Online is definitely another beast entirely. The "Skill Gap", such as it is, tends to the extreme as far as the results gamers have been getting. People are either exploiting the mechanics to knock down over 20 three-pointers in a 20 minute game, or they can't buy a bucket. It's not a proper learning curve. I think a lot of people are also finding the aiming a bit clunky, with slight movements causing the aim to veer wildly left and right. The size of the meter is also rather small, and I don't think it works well for layups at all. You can just use the button of course, but then you're really at the mercy of the game as far as animation selection.

People have also found out how to script Green Releases with modded controllers, and it seems to be a bigger problem than ever. That's an issue that's come to light over the past few days, though it's most likely been happening since the game's release. The online scene has become even more toxic as a result.

An issue I've noticed offline is that the CPU is very generous to itself when it comes to good releases - especially on layups - or achieving Green Releases. This was also an issue in NBA 2K20, as the CPU's shooting success was changed from using Real FG% to release timing, and a computer is much better at precise input than a human (on top of being able to rig the RNG in its favour). On one hand it's more of a challenge, but at the same time it's not quite balanced, either.

The issues people are having are a learning curve that's more like a cliff, with wildly extreme results; clunkiness with the stick aiming mechanics; cheaters that have been able to game the system to get Greens every time with the tap of a button; a meter that isn't big enough; layups feeling too difficult and contrived, which can be overcome by use of the button, but then you lose advanced control over the shot; and unbalanced tuning in online and offline alike, with much less that can be done online (where the cheaters are also taking over). It's not that people don't get the concepts, or need to "get good". There are some underlying issues with the mechanics, and the exploit of modded controllers has only made the situation worse online.

[tinpanalley]

An issue I've noticed offline is that the CPU is very generous to itself when it comes to good releases - especially on layups - or achieving Green Releases. This was also an issue in NBA 2K20, as the CPU's shooting success was changed from using Real FG% to release timing

Really?! The CPU AI is given timed shooting? How do they expect it to have any margin of error? Was this openly shared by 2K that they do this? I mean, am I blowing this out of proportion? I suppose it's controllable via sliders as well. But if that's the case, when is the last 2K game known to not use the release timing and just use stats and ratings?

[Andrew]

The developer blogs for NBA 2K20 confirmed the change, and it's still the approach in NBA 2K21. As of NBA 2K19, the CPU was still using Real FG% rather than release timing.

[tinpanalley]

The developer blogs for NBA 2K20 confirmed the change, and it's still the approach in NBA 2K21. As of NBA 2K19, the CPU was still using Real FG% rather than release timing.

Hmm.. ok. Starting to understand more and more why people play 2K14...

[Andrew]

There's a method to the madness, the idea being that if you leave the CPU open then it can punish you with a good or perfect release, just like you can do to it (or another user). The problem of course, as noted above, is that the CPU is far more adept at precise inputs than any user humanly can be without a cheat device. In those situations, it can give itself a Green whenever it likes. This is evident by the amount of times a poor free throw shooter will step up to the line and Green all of their shots in the hands of the CPU.

There's a reason for it, and it's an attempt at balancing the game by making the CPU more adept at challenging the user by giving it the same tools. Once again though, the problem is that it can use those tools far more effectively than users can, unless we cheat and script the outcome as it's capable of doing.

[tinpanalley]

There's a method to the madness, the idea being that if you leave the CPU open then it can punish you with a good or perfect release, just like you can do to it (or another user). The problem of course, as noted above, is that the CPU is far more adept at precise inputs than any user humanly can be without a cheat device. In those situations, it can give itself a Green whenever it likes. This is evident by the amount of times a poor free throw shooter will step up to the line and Green all of their shots in the hands of the CPU.

There's a reason for it, and it's an attempt at balancing the game by making the CPU more adept at challenging the user by giving it the same tools. Once again though, the problem is that it can use those tools far more effectively than users can, unless we cheat and script the outcome as it's capable of doing.

The problem is that the "same tools" in the hands of a far superior entity (i.e. AI controlled by software) aren't the "same". Can one use sliders to reduce CPU shot accuracy or completion percentage?

[Andrew]

That was the point I was making, yes. It's like in the old Mortal Kombat games, where performing Liu Kang's bicycle kick required holding down Low Kick for five seconds, but the CPU could just trigger it immediately and even spam it without a cool down. On one hand, the CPU needs some tools to compete with a human user that can learn, adapt, and think laterally. On the other hand, it's very easy to make the challenge unfair and artificial, and we are seeing that.

Slider tweaks might help, but like the needlessly aggressive double teams, it could be one of those things that's hard-coded. It obviously wouldn't be a viable solution in MyCAREER and MyTEAM either, so I'd say it'll come down to appropriate tuning on the developers' part. It's worth playing around with the sliders of course, but some things are difficult/impossible to overcome because we don't have access to the mechanics.

[tinpanalley]

It's worth playing around with the sliders of course, but some things are difficult/impossible to overcome because we don't have access to the mechanics.

So you'd say -- not pinning you legally to this of course -- that in your opinion this isn't controllable via sliders or global edits to players?

[Andrew]

I think it's worth trying if you're a Play Now or MyLEAGUE gamer, but to keep expectations low so as to either be pleasantly surprised by a viable solution, or not too disappointed if nothing can be done. In short, don't rule it out yet, but don't expect too much either.

[tinpanalley]

I think it's worth trying if you're a Play Now or MyLEAGUE gamer, but to keep expectations low so as to either be pleasantly surprised by a viable solution, or not too disappointed if nothing can be done. In short, don't rule it out yet, but don't expect too much either.

Yeah, I hear you.
Its just one of the few things you dont expect to come across when playing a sports game, that your CPU opponents are essentially programmed not to fail. I mean that's what NES and arcade games were like, the last boxer, the last team you played after hours of playing was always impossible to beat unless you knew the one move. Who wants THAT in a more sim game?

[Andrew]

Sim games have always had that to a certain extent, because AI has its limits. After all, it's not like the cutting edge of AI is being used in basketball games, or video games in general for that matter. The trick is to balance it so that it feels fair and organic, and that's where 2K has been coming up short, especially with this approach. It's also a by-product of focusing on the online competitive scene and user vs. user. When that's the clear priority, it's no surprise that the single player experience isn't as polished as it used to be.

Of course, it is intended to be an improvement to the NBA side of MyCAREER, which is single player gameplay. In theory, the change to release timing makes your AI teammates in NBA MyCAREER games more effective, because they have a chance of knocking down open shots with good and perfect releases just like a user-controlled teammate would. In practice, it doesn't always work out, but you can see the thinking behind it. The problem is that while it's geared towards MyCAREER and its connected modes, there are issues when it comes to the Play Now/MyLEAGUE style of single player/offline gameplay.

[tinpanalley]

The problem is that while it's geared towards MyCAREER and its connected modes, there are issues when it comes to the Play Now/MyLEAGUE style of single player/offline gameplay.

yeah, i only play individual seasons offline against the cpu. So, not great for me.

[Andrew]

Exactly. On the other hand, if sliders can be beneficial, they're at least an option in that mode. A small comfort...if and when they work properly, of course.

[tinpanalley]

Exactly. On the other hand, if sliders can be beneficial, they're at least an option in that mode. A small comfort...if and when they work properly, of course.

It's funny because I didn't know this existed until recently so I just accepted that, ok, I suck because no matter how closely I mark them, they score so I had basically learned to just accept that, ok, when they get the ball they're gonna score. I have to make each basket count. But long droughts where neither of us score, as happens in real life, never happen.

[Andrew]

Dee4Three and I talked about that on the NLSC Podcast earlier this year. It feels like sliders have somehow fallen out of vogue, which may be because a lot more people are playing MyCAREER and its connected modes.

[tinpanalley]

A guy called ThaLiveKing on YouTube has great sliders for the flow of the game. Makes the game feel great but he admits it can't fix the AI issues. Can't wait to see what you did with 2k11.

[Andrew]

TLK's posted his work here before as well. He always does great stuff whether it's videos or sliders, but yeah, there's only so much we can fix ourselves.