ADF.LY - A poor modding practice - PLEASE READ

[Andrew]

No doubt there are some people modding pirated games and using other pirated software while saying they should be compensated for their time and effort, without being aware of (or at least, not caring about) the irony and hypocrisy. Just the way it goes, I guess.

I've written about these issues in this week's Monday Tip-Off: https://www.nba-live.com/mto-crossroads ... community/

As I said, it's felt like a turbulent time as of late, with a lot of unnecessary drama. That's something we don't need, and another reason why we may have to tighten up some rules or at least make sure that unwritten policies are clearly written.

[bigh0rt]

Man, to think about the dozens and dozens of potential revenue dollars I've missed out on over the last 15 years by just releasing the mods that I willingly put my time into for free, for the good of the community and modding landscape as a whole, while also remaining on the right side of legality... man, it really makes you think...

[Bassman58]

I have a question for adf.ly users or anybody else. I just downloaded some files for GTR2 (a racing game) and adf.ly was used. There was the 5 second wait, I clicked "skip ad" and ignored the allow notifications, there was a re-direct and then on to mediafire. This seems to happen for most GTR2 and NASCAR Racing 2003 mods. There are no issues with all of the problems addressed above. Why do NBA 2K users that use adlinks have all of the garbage associated with it? Is there a setup by the modder that does this? What's up with this? Is adf.ly or the modders at fault?

Here's the link. I'll contact the modder and ask him about this issue.
mediafire.com file/4sdulcpjz1uqgaa/Rowe_GT4_Masters_carset_2.rar/file

[Pep]

Kudos for this thread.

Last year when my nike unis reached over 10k downloads, after a long battle with myself (ethic and morals reasons) I created paypal account. I consider also an option with adfly, but I hate by myself to clicks through one adfly to another through another, so if I hate it, it wouldn't be fair to all of yours if I set that, so I ditched the idea very quickly. Instead I go with donation to check if I could get something and you know what? I didn't earn a Penny or even Lil' Penny ( ). I earned $20 for personal request and to this day I don't know if I didn't take too much for this, but maybe my objection is, because I convert $ to PLN ($20 = ~75zł).
I'm not mad that my tipjar is empty, because I'm not doing this for money. If someone donate me I'd be happy and thankful, if not I'm still would be happy and do what I do. This is how it should work at least in my pov.

Patreon for ealry access? Why not, if you gonna release it for free later I think is a fair deal.

Things that facebook modders (very toxic community) do are not good. Putting mods behind paywall or thousand of adfly might cost community more than modder would get from links. Viruses, malwares, crypted discs, stolen bank accounts etc, etc. Is not worth. Of course if you don't have conscience you might fuck it, but if you've got a lil bit of that, think about it.

Also some of FB modders aren't fair, because they using other people stuff without a permission and try to get money on that, but this is another topic.

Btw, adfly on youtube video? Seriously? I know yt got private links, but c'mon, how silly is that?! Yt got their own monetization system, use that instead of adfly.

Anyway my conclusion of this chatoic post is: donations - yes, patreon (but in a way that I mentioned above) - yes, adfly and paywall a big no no no!

P.S: SHDX3, is that you on an avatar?
P.S 2: I would love to have Lil' Penny figure.

[Andrew]

Thanks for the input, Pep.

If there are any ad links services that are safer and less of a hassle, then we could feasibly have an approved list for people to use. However, those are getting scarce and encouraging tip jars and Patreon instead would be preferable, especially if it gets to the point where we have to say no more ad links because they can't be trusted and are causing too many problems. For Patreon releases, we'd have to have rules regarding reasonable time frames for early access. I mean, if a couple of months go by, it's fair to say someone has basically released a paid mod while pretending it'll be available to everyone "soon", and has broken our trust.

Of course, it goes back to what we've said many times before, and what bigh0rt has just reiterated with his post in this topic. If you're modding to make money, you're modding for the wrong reasons; especially if you're also happily using free resources and platforms to create, promote, and distribute the work you're wanting to be compensated for.

[TGsoGood]

Does anyone know if paypal allows donations of less than $1?

[Pep]

Andrew, I think two weeks between early access and free release should be a maximum time. It would be optimal amount of time for buyers to enjoy a mod before others and short time to wait for rest of players.

[bluejaybrandon]

Does anyone know if paypal allows donations of less than $1?

They do. I’ve sent donations as low as 5 cents just to test that an account is working.

[Andrew]

Andrew, I think two weeks between early access and free release should be a maximum time. It would be optimal amount of time for buyers to enjoy a mod before others and short time to wait for rest of players.

Definitely a good suggestion, I'd tend to agree.

[sticky-fingers]

IMO, patreon early access means excesses.

[Bassman58]

I received a reply from the GTR2 guy about adfly issues. He says that he uploads to mediafire and that he "has no control" over how adfly handles the linking.

[TGsoGood]

Does anyone know if paypal allows donations of less than $1?

They do. I’ve sent donations as low as 5 cents just to test that an account is working.

This is good news. Maybe people would be more willing to donate if they knew that they could send just a small donation to their favorite modders.
Anything is better than dealing with ad fly.

[bigh0rt]

I have concerns about the early access possibilities with respect to people wanting us to potentially police people who pay for early access and then share the mod with whomever they wish. I see scenarios with replies of "PM me", when a user replies saying they can't afford the early access but want the mod (which we see with regularity regarding the purchase of the game itself, so I don't see it as a big stretch); and those posts being reported, and becoming a tremendous headache.

I also wonder if modders getting the short end of the stick in the above scenario would want the Team Members to turn a blind eye to that rule violation as they do with others... Cherry picking is always a good time.

[bluejaybrandon]

I have concerns about the early access possibilities with respect to people wanting us to potentially police people who pay for early access and then share the mod with whomever they wish. I see scenarios with replies of "PM me", when a user replies saying they can't afford the early access but want the mod (which we see with regularity regarding the purchase of the game itself, so I don't see it as a big stretch); and those posts being reported, and becoming a tremendous headache.

I also wonder if modders getting the short end of the stick in the above scenario would want the Team Members to turn a blind eye to that rule violation as they do with others... Cherry picking is always a good time.

I think I tend to agree with this sentiment. The whole “early access” scenario just opens up so many problems for moderators. I mean, ultimately, it’s your guys burden to bear but it just seems like it’ll turn into paid mods under a different name. It will fall on the moderators when people report that a release hasn’t occurred in whatever time frame you set up, or someone paid for early access but never received all they were promised.

I guess I think this is more looking for a solution without a problem. Modding has been and always should be for the sake of enjoying the game. People mod for all kinds of reasons but just because certain people mod for profit, doesn’t mean that it’s the NLSC’s job to provide a platform for their monetization. Like it’s been said, they’re often monetizing mods here when they’ve done nothing directly to give back to the platform hosting them. It’s one major reason I’ve always had a deep admiration for this place, it lives by two solid pillars, buy the game, and mod for fun. To me, that speaks volumes about the kind of culture you’ve been able to cultivate here and I’d love to see that continue into the future. I fear “early access” jeopardizes that and opens up a Pandora’s box of problems for the moderators. Either way thanks for all you guys do.

[bigh0rt]

The easiest solution is just to mod as a member of the community, and produce things for the greater good of everybody. It's how I've always done things, and other longtime members like JaoSming and a laundry list of others have, as well. Open access, use what you want, because collectively we are far greater than the sum of our parts. It's how we modded 15 years ago, with few issues, and over the last 5, 6, or so years, it's really fallen by the wayside. It has been replaced with the desire for whatever small sliver of notoriety that can be garnered in this niche corner of the internet, or a desire to be financially compensated. I know this is a tad off-topic from the adf.ly original content, but it's somewhat related, because it's what results in these adf.ly links. I think if users are desperate for money, and that is their primary concern, they would be suited to go get a part of full-time job. They are mandated to pay you. It's wild stuff. If they are financially stable and wish to spend their free time modding, then that is a fantastic hobby; one I've enjoyed myself off and on for the last decade and a half. I think an issue arises when people feel that they should be compensated for something that they willingly spend their free time doing, and try to paint a woe is me picture, citing the number of hours they put into something. There is nobody forcing them to do so. If it isn't worth the hours put in, then by all means, stop. Nobody has a gun to your head. But the reality is that they don't want to stop; modding is a labor of love, and we do it because we enjoy it. When the joy wanes, then fill that time with other, more enjoyable or preferable activities. But I don't, and will never understand the mentality that "I spent X hours doing this, so I deserve some God damn respect/leniency/money!" We spend these hours completely willingly, in the same way that others spend their free time collecting cards, exercising, or doing any other number of activities that are time intensive, yet nobody would ever feel they deserved compensation for. To me, there's a very big disconnect there. If you want to be compensated, go get a job, and be compensated. If you want to modify NBA 2K, then join us, and let's make it the best game it can be, together. The way we have for two decades.

Hopefully this doesn't drag things off-topic, since I think there's some really great conversation going on in this thread. So please don't let it, for people who are dying to reply and engage in an argument. Feel free to PM me. I probably won't read it or respond, but you'll have the satisfaction of knowing you typed your words.

[Andrew]

Excellent points about the "early access" approach. It could indeed quickly become very difficult to police/moderate/regulate, and it's something that people could take advantage of by making everything they release "early access". One of the factors we have to consider of course is that a precedent has been set with it previously (and currently) being allowed for the Ultimate Base Roster and U R Basketball. Like ad links, once something's been allowed, it's difficult to revoke permission without backlash. Donations and Patreon patronage pays for hosting for those bigger projects too, and having donation/fundraising facilities for our own dedicated hosting, I can appreciate the desire to cover those costs as much as anything else.

It's a delicate situation, but we'll figure something out. It's important we keep the discussion going so we can work out a fair solution. I don't imagine we'll be able to satisfy everyone and if some people leave then that's unfortunate, but we have to do what's best for the community in the long run.

I completely agree with what bigh0rt has said regarding the changing attitudes to modding. Maybe it's because we had a lot of the old guard retire from modding very abruptly and they weren't around to set an example, but the hobby has become very money-driven. The fame/recognition/ego issues have been there for a long time, though again, a lot of the old guard outgrew it and were able to set a more positive example. I'd like us to get back to our roots of creating mods for personal enjoyment and satisfaction, and community enrichment, but minds and attitudes don't change overnight. As has been noted, it's probably going to come down to being a bit stricter with the rules to begin with, and considering some of the issues that have arisen, I don't think that would be unfair or inappropriate.

[johnwest1985]

DEIBYS using these annoying links also in his new topic. I had to press allow and it never feels good..

[maumau78]

viewtopic.php?f=153&t=94047&start=12125#p1990231

Just an info: has this been approved by someone?

I personally approve HAWK23 work and I'm not against Patreon...just wondering If It's backed by admins or not....

[sticky-fingers]

I'm glad this has been brought up. Ad links are becoming an issue, and it's getting to the point where we're going to have to seriously re-evaluate our policies and rules. Obviously that's a drastic measure and it's something that has to be approached fairly - we wouldn't retroactively make it a violation and there'd be a grace period, for example - but it is getting to that point.

There are two main issues at hand here: the dangers presented by specific ad link services themselves, and the overall culture and mentality. I'll address the former first, because it's arguably the more pressing issue, and the easier fix.

Some ad links services, like adf.ly, aren't as safe as they once were. They want to install malware, or otherwise compromise the security and performance of your browser and PC. We shouldn't be putting each other at risk like that. Similarly, a lot of the ads are for adult content. It's not appropriate for us to be linking to that kind of content, even in unintended ad form. We have minors in the community, we're trying to keep things PG, and frankly we don't want to put our hosting and advertising at risk through any kind of links or connections to adult content. When it comes to the viruses/malware and adult content, I don't want links involving those things in our Downloads section, or even just posted in topics in the Forum.

Now, one solution here is to identify problematic ad link providers, prohibit their use, and allow the use of specific approved services that are safe. The problem is that they don't necessarily stay safe for long, and there's also the second problem of the culture and mentality in the modding community these days.

If money is your main motivation for modding, you're modding for the wrong reasons. It's not what our community was built upon, and it's led to a lot of greedy and unfair practices. It's not right to make people have to click through multiple ad links to get to the download, even if they're safe. You should be modding because you enjoy the hobby and enhancing your own gaming experience, and want to share that work with others. Given that there are means of making some spare change (which can add up in some cases), a tip jar/donation link is fine and understandable, and you'll find that if you're doing great work and treating people well, your audience will be appreciate and generous. Also, while there are cases of people making a decent amount of money through ad links, for most people they aren't profitable. It's like YouTube: some people will blow up and make a lot of money, for others it'll always be a hobby that makes them some spare change on the side at best.

There are some disturbing trends in the modding community right now. The overuse of ad links and push to make the hobby all about making money. Holding back releases until you get a certain number of Likes, video views, or comments. Petty sniping back and forth, and unnecessary drama. It's an insult to all the modders who helped establish this community and make it what it is today, as well as the people who are currently trying to maintain the site.

To that end, sticky-fingers has raised a couple of rather pertinent issues.

I'm curious to know if modders using donations and adfly also used to support NLSC with donation/tip

Some people have indeed paid it forward with some generous donations and support here and there when they can afford it, and I'm very grateful for that. However, by and large, the people using ad links aren't donating anything to our hosting fund. All of the services provided here on the NLSC are free, but our hosting is not. It's a tad hypocritical to happily use a free service and platform, while also claiming that you should be compensated for your work, as though you're the only person putting in the hard yards in our community (then or now).

Yes, mods can take a lot of time and effort to create - even if I'm not as involved in that side of things these days, I've been making updates since 1997 so I'm well aware and appreciative of that - and it's nice to receive some appreciation for that in the form of monetary compensation. You know what else requires a lot of time and effort though, as well as money to maintain? The NLSC itself. And even if you want to say "well, I'll just use Facebook instead", you'd still be insisting on using a platform that's completely free, while demanding money of other people. Facebook also has a lot more money than I do, I can assure you. If you're benefiting from the use of a platform that comes with an audience, resources, and a knowledge base that are freely available, while also saying that you should be compensated for your time without having any interest in paying it forward to that platform or even other modders, that's disingenuous and hypocritical.

I'm not saying that everyone must donate, because that would be unfair given everyone's individual financial situations, and my goal is to provide the NLSC's facilities free of charge as long as it's financially viable for me to keep the site up and running. However, it does take a lot of time and effort on my part, just as modding does, and I'm doing it for free. Just keep that in mind when we're talking about what's fair as far as being compensated on a free platform. For that matter, simply supporting the NLSC by sharing our articles and original content on social media, talking about them in the Forum and having a conversation about the topic in the comments section, and simply being involved in more than just releasing your own mods, goes a long way in supporting the site.

Speaking of efforts to maintain things around here...

another issue is the availability of the mods.
after few months, they disappear for ever for mediafire and co...
So you want recognition of your work, but you dont care about that.

This is becoming more of a problem. One of the reasons that we're hosted on a dedicated server is so that we can help out with permanent (and again, free) file hosting, though I understand why people may prefer to use other services and add external links. That's fine, we're set up for that as well. Since the use of adf.ly took off however, we've had more and more broken links in the Downloads section, which isn't a good look. Frankly I'm fed up trying to track them down or bug people to fix their links, so if I get a report about a broken link and it's not easily fixed, I've decided I'm just going to remove it. I've already got enough on my plate without having to chase that up as well, and so often ad links are involved when links go down.

I could go on and on about the culture and mentality, but I'd be repeating what I've already laid out in a couple of articles I wrote for Monday Tip-Off:

Why We Don’t Charge For Mods
Are You Modding For The Right Reasons?

So, where does that all leave us?

We're going to have to work out a few things as a community, but as far as the problematic practices are concerned, it is getting to the point where rules are going to have to be changed. If we don't outright ban ad links, the rules are at least going to have to change as far as a safe service that can be used. Things like running people through multiple ad links, or holding back releases until a set goal of donations, Likes, views, or replies, are going to be outlawed if they continue because that's just plain toxic. With Patreon being a thing, we have to decide what's fair as far as early access releases and so forth, because otherwise it just becomes creatively charging for mods and we're not going to allow that here (or for that matter, Patreon exclusive releases to be promoted here).

As this important conversation continues, I would urge people to consider using donation links/tip jars instead of ad links. You'll find that people are quite generous, and for most people, it'll be a higher earning than they'll make with all the ad link clicks, without putting the community through the hassle. As others have noted, the use of ad links has also actively discouraged people from downloading mods, which means you don't get the traffic and the revenue anyway. And of course, it's a shame when downloads go missing because the focus has been on an ad link rather than making sure they're permanently available.

Anyway, this is something we need to continue discussing because it is a problem, and it's forcing us to consider far more serious rules regarding modding practices. I'll probably end up making this a global topic at some point so that it continues to get attention as we work this out, and the whole modding community can see it.

[Andrew]

https://forums.nba-live.com/viewtopic.php?f=153&t=94047&start=12125#p1990231

Just an info: has this been approved by someone?

I personally approve HAWK23 work and I'm not against Patreon...just wondering If It's backed by admins or not....

At present we're allowing it due to past precedent, but it's something else to work out moving forward as far as what we allow in terms of promotion if nothing else.