Take Two CEO on Microtransactions

[Andrew]

Deeper matchmaking could help there without eating into recurrent revenue profits too much. As I said in my Monday Tip-Off article, something similar to Rocket League would really help.

[Andrew]

So, this is an interesting video, discussing a now-deleted Reddit post by an alleged ex-2K employee, spilling the beans on various practices regarding VC and the like.

phpBB [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH96UQMc7PA

It should be noted that it's unconfirmed, and even lacks any screenshots of the person making the allegations, so it's not exactly the best expose/recap of the situation. However, a lot of things do make sense. The Prelude does feel different; indeed, even starting a new MyCAREER, your 60 Overall player feels a lot better during the early stages of the story, until you hit the NBA. The haircuts were a blatant gouge, and the inability to preview them was a way of getting you to spend more VC if you didn't like your choice. Many of the other assertions make sense, too.

The thing is that even if the Reddit post was a hoax and purely speculation by a disgruntled gamer, it does highlight some of the problems with the approach to VC, microtransactions, grinding, and accessibility in NBA 2K as of last year's game. If it's not actually a leak from an ex-2K employee then it is disingenuous to present it as such, but again, what's being suggested is very plausible regardless. These are matters of goodwill that 2K needs to address.

[PeacemanNOT]

God I wish that info was 100% confirmed... the outrage that the community would have. But even then a lot of the information does sound plausible especially considering Take-Two's biggest goal right now is to maximise the selling of microtransactions in their games.

[Dee4Three]

God I wish that info was 100% confirmed... the outrage that the community would have. But even then a lot of the information does sound plausible especially considering Take-Two's biggest goal right now is to maximise the selling of microtransactions in their games.

Totally disagree about the outrage being that bad. I think it would piss off a few people, a few people would make youtube videos about it, but I feel like it would mostly fall silent and just be looked over. People are used to being taken, and the excuse would be "its your fault for spending the money, if you don't like the game don't play it or buy it". That's the harsh reality of the consumer world we live in today.

I already feel like that's what they have been doing, I don't need confirmation from an insider. It's obvious that many of the practices are devious, and that overall it's a huge money grab. Some of us here, including me, would just say "I'm not surprised".

[Andrew]

Fair point. I think the folks who are outraged are already as steamed as they're going to get, and if the alleged leaks are accurate, they really only confirm what many of us already suspected.

As I said before, there's also merit in noting that we don't have to spend money on VC, or even buy the game if we don't want to. At the end of the day, you let your wallet speak for itself. At the same time, it's a product that people are interested in, and the most popular modes are clearly designed to encourage microtransactions if you want to avoid the frustration of heavy grinding, or the competitive balance being set by people who are willing to pay to win. It's something that's become increasingly intrusive and problematic resulting in an experience that isn't as fun as it used to be, hence the backlash. Yes, we should all be savvy consumers, but that doesn't make shady business practices any less contemptible.

[PeacemanNOT]

The community would be outraged, but it wouldn't seem large enough since we're so divided. We're all separated apart eachother from the less popular NLSC forum... the ignored NBA2K subreddit... the heavily moderated Operation Sports and the twitter community who only care about pink diamond cards and belittling the devs.

I feel like we could have a much bigger impact as a community if the outrage was more centralised. A good example would be the Star Wars Battlefront II community being mainly centered on their subreddit. They made a huge impact on the game and got the entire internet to criticise EA's bad practices, eventually forcing the devs to remove the pay-to-win aspect from their game. They made a comment by an EA community account to have the most downvoted comment in Reddit history (which is what grabbed everyone's attention). This was only possible because a large amount of community was apart of that subreddit to downvote the comment in the first place.

Right now all of our criticisms are basically invalid since we're so separated. I mean just look at Operation Sports (arguably 2K's biggest community) around launch... it's heavily moderated and any criticism on the upcoming game is shot down immediately. This is why I think the "outrage" would be looked over and would seem so small.

[Andrew]

We're also a niche gaming community with smaller numbers than other genres that have wider appeal, so issues gain less traction in the gaming media.

[PeacemanNOT]

The community of NBA2K is obviously much larger than Battlefront II, although it is definitely true that there are a lot more casual players playing 2K compared to passionate Star Wars fans who are known for criticising a lot.

I guess that comparison isn't the best but it definitely shows what people can do to change a game, especially when criticism is more centralised.

[Dee4Three]

We're also a niche gaming community with smaller numbers than other genres that have wider appeal, so issues gain less traction in the gaming media.

You keep saying that its a "niche" gaming community, or audience. This isn't Tennis (Which I like a lot), or Cricket, or even Racing. This is basketball, and the game attracts millions upon millions of gamers, casual and hardcore. A lot of those who have Battlefront, may also be owning 2K, I can't say the same in vice versa. Same with a lot of the other games that are super popular. I know more people that own 2K as part of a gaming collection than Call of Duty. What makes 2K or basketball gaming more of a niche market? When you say Niche, I think small, or not commonly owned. 2K is owned by... Christ.... most people I know. And, if they don't own the current game, they own past games, or are still sometimes talking about it.

I'd almost wish to leave out "Niche" when describing basketball gaming, it's huge.

According to one analyst, the most recent entries in the series average at least four million copies sold. The best-selling game in the series is NBA 2K14, which sold over seven million copies; it is also Take-Two Interactive's best-selling sports game.

Call of Duty 4 sales

The Xbox 360 version was the third best-selling video game of 2007 in the U.S. with 3.04 million units sold, behind Halo 3, which sold 4.82 million units, according to the NPD Group. By January 2008, Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare had sold more than 7 million copies worldwide, and was the best-selling game of 2007.

The Call of Duty games/Halo etc, could be said as the same, as it seems that there as many people not interested in that as they are basketball. I think calling it a Niche, or making it seem smaller, isn't accurate in the least. The NLSC is known for modding, and it's title insinuates a focus on NBA Live (NBA Live Series Center). We just don't get looked at the same or taken as seriously, which is disappointing because some of the best feedback I have ever seen in regards to these games are on here, where it's less controlled and we are free to speak our minds. The only reason I am on Operation Sports at all is because I am active in the Tennis section. I've read through the Operation Sports threads in regards to 2K, it seems so.... fake.... I don't know how else to word it.

[Andrew]

Sports gaming in general is a specific interest, which is why I use the word "niche". For example, people who play basketball games may also be inclined to play GTA, Fallout, etc, but a lot of people who play GTA and Fallout aren't necessarily inclined to play basketball games. Basketball isn't as niche as some other sports when it comes to video games (or real life for that matter), but it isn't as popular as other genres.

Some of those sales figures you quoted are from over a decade ago. To put it in perspective, NBA 2K19 has sold somewhere between 8.5 and 9 million copies, which is admittedly huge. However, GTA sold 11 million copies within the first 24 hours, and around 95 million overall. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has sold over 27 million copies. Call of Duty: Black Ops has sold over 26 million copies; its sequel sold 7.5 million in the first 24 hours and set a revenue record that stood until GTA V came out. Fallout 4 sold 12 million copies on its first day, and has reportedly surpassed Skyrim's sales, which were supposed to be around 30 million in 2016. Fallout: New Vegas had sold 11.5 million copies by 2015, while Fallout 3 sold 12.4 million copies. By May 2014, Assassin's Creed IV (released October 2013) had sold 11 million copies. PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds has sold 50 million copies since last December.

Indeed, if you look at the Top 50 best-selling video games of all-time, there are no basketball games on the list, though NBA 2K's sales are inching towards it. Even if you combine NBA Live and NBA 2K's sales in any given year, though, they don't crack the Top 50. Note that that list also omits a few games such as Fallout 4, which apparently ranks ahead of 12th place Skyrim with an unreported number in excess of 30 million. Also, while the annual releases ensure that 2K continues to sell a lot of copies each year - to a dedicated fanbase that wants a new game every year - no single title has ranked in the all-time Top 50 (yet, anyway), and they don't have the same continuing appeal and increasing sales numbers after 12 months compared to other genres, because people generally don't buy a sports game that's two or three years old the way they might a shooter, RPG, or other type of game.

"Niche" may have unintended implications, and I certainly don't mean to compare basketball games to obscure indie titles or anything like that. It is a very specific interest though, as are sports games in general. Sports games, particularly annual releases, also have a certain reputation for being mere roster and cosmetic updates (not entirely true, not entirely false sometimes) or doing other things that have come to be accepted as part and parcel of the genre. They aren't covered and reported on in the same way as other genres of video games, and the outrage isn't the same. People are more likely to say "Well, that's how it is with sports games." The backlash over Battlefront II happened before release and severely affected its sales, to the point where it hasn't really recovered. The backlash with NBA 2K18 happened after the game came out, and the same people who were always going to buy it anyway discovered what was up. Basketball gamers have also demonstrated a willingness to put up with the BS, as is evident from NBA 2K18's record setting "recurrent revenue".

So yeah, "niche" may not be the perfect word, but there are games with bigger audiences and wider appeal in general. Certain downfalls and drawbacks are also expected of annual sports games in 2018, so they tend not to get roasted for things that other genres might (and are). Those preconceived notions play a role, and there just isn't the same outrage when it comes to sports games.

Anyway, that's why I use the word "niche", and what I mean when I say that issues with basketball games don't get the same traction with the gaming media, even though 2K's sales figures in particular are far from paltry. When a game like Fallout 4 or Grand Theft Auto V does something controversial or disappoints in some way, it becomes news. When it's a sports game, the general reaction is "Well, what did you expect? It's an annual sports game, that's what they're like." By and large, we continue to buy the games anyway, and even pump more money into them via microtransactions, so the status quo remains unchanged. Issues with a divided community and whatnot are a factor - as is a willingness to tolerate the problems, or an unwillingness to boycott the games - but it isn't the only factor when it comes to mobilising and channelling outrage, or the perception of basketball games as a whole.

On a side note, we probably do have a reputation as a PC basketball gaming community (if nothing else), and by the numbers compared to the rest of the userbase, that does make us seem quite niche.

[Dee4Three]

Sports gaming in general is a specific interest, which is why I use the word "niche". For example, people who play basketball games may also be inclined to play GTA, Fallout, etc, but a lot of people who play GTA and Fallout aren't necessarily inclined to play basketball games. Basketball isn't as niche as some other sports when it comes to video games (or real life for that matter), but it isn't as popular as other genres.

Some of those sales figures you quoted are from over a decade ago. To put it in perspective, NBA 2K19 has sold somewhere between 8.5 and 9 million copies, which is admittedly huge. However, GTA sold 11 million copies within the first 24 hours, and around 95 million overall. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has sold over 27 million copies. Call of Duty: Black Ops has sold over 26 million copies; its sequel sold 7.5 million in the first 24 hours and set a revenue record that stood until GTA V came out. Fallout 4 sold 12 million copies on its first day, and has reportedly surpassed Skyrim's sales, which were supposed to be around 30 million in 2016. Fallout: New Vegas had sold 11.5 million copies by 2015, while Fallout 3 sold 12.4 million copies. By May 2014, Assassin's Creed IV (released October 2013) had sold 11 million copies. PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds has sold 50 million copies since last December.

Indeed, if you look at the Top 50 best-selling video games of all-time, there are no basketball games on the list, though NBA 2K's sales are inching towards it. Even if you combine NBA Live and NBA 2K's sales in any given year, though, they don't crack the Top 50. Note that that list also omits a few games such as Fallout 4, which apparently ranks ahead of 12th place Skyrim with an unreported number in excess of 30 million. Also, while the annual releases ensure that 2K continues to sell a lot of copies each year - to a dedicated fanbase that wants a new game every year - no single title has ranked in the all-time Top 50 (yet, anyway), and they don't have the same continuing appeal and increasing sales numbers after 12 months compared to other genres, because people generally don't buy a sports game that's two or three years old the way they might a shooter, RPG, or other type of game.

"Niche" may have unintended implications, and I certainly don't mean to compare basketball games to obscure indie titles or anything like that. It is a very specific interest though, as are sports games in general. Sports games, particularly annual releases, also have a certain reputation for being mere roster and cosmetic updates (not entirely true, not entirely false sometimes) or doing other things that have come to be accepted as part and parcel of the genre. They aren't covered and reported on in the same way as other genres of video games, and the outrage isn't the same. People are more likely to say "Well, that's how it is with sports games." The backlash over Battlefront II happened before release and severely affected its sales, to the point where it hasn't really recovered. The backlash with NBA 2K18 happened after the game came out, and the same people who were always going to buy it anyway discovered what was up. Basketball gamers have also demonstrated a willingness to put up with the BS, as is evident from NBA 2K18's record setting "recurrent revenue".

So yeah, "niche" may not be the perfect word, but there are games with bigger audiences and wider appeal in general. Certain downfalls and drawbacks are also expected of annual sports games in 2018, so they tend not to get roasted for things that other genres might (and are). Those preconceived notions play a role, and there just isn't the same outrage when it comes to sports games.

Anyway, that's why I use the word "niche", and what I mean when I say that issues with basketball games don't get the same traction with the gaming media, even though 2K's sales figures in particular are far from paltry. When a game like Fallout 4 or Grand Theft Auto V does something controversial or disappoints in some way, it becomes news. When it's a sports game, the general reaction is "Well, what did you expect? It's an annual sports game, that's what they're like." By and large, we continue to buy the games anyway, and even pump more money into them via microtransactions, so the status quo remains unchanged. Issues with a divided community and whatnot are a factor - as is a willingness to tolerate the problems, or an unwillingness to boycott the games - but it isn't the only factor when it comes to mobilising and channelling outrage, or the perception of basketball games as a whole.

On a side note, we probably do have a reputation as a PC basketball gaming community (if nothing else), and by the numbers compared to the rest of the userbase, that does make us seem quite niche.

Well, I mean... could my figures be any more off? I didn't realize they were from that long ago.

I see what you are saying, makes sense. Now PC modding on the other hand, is certainly niche with basketball games. Christ, playing on PC in general is Niche when it comes to 2K.

Either way, thanks for the more accurate numbers and breakdown. That's what I get for not doing further research, ha.

[StyxTx]

So, this is an interesting video, discussing a now-deleted Reddit post by an alleged ex-2K employee, spilling the beans on various practices regarding VC and the like.

It should be noted that it's unconfirmed, and even lacks any screenshots of the person making the allegations, so it's not exactly the best expose/recap of the situation. However, a lot of things do make sense. The Prelude does feel different; indeed, even starting a new MyCAREER, your 60 Overall player feels a lot better during the early stages of the story, until you hit the NBA. The haircuts were a blatant gouge, and the inability to preview them was a way of getting you to spend more VC if you didn't like your choice. Many of the other assertions make sense, too.

The thing is that even if the Reddit post was a hoax and purely speculation by a disgruntled gamer, it does highlight some of the problems with the approach to VC, microtransactions, grinding, and accessibility in NBA 2K as of last year's game. If it's not actually a leak from an ex-2K employee then it is disingenuous to present it as such, but again, what's being suggested is very plausible regardless. These are matters of goodwill that 2K needs to address.

You know, it doesn't matter to me if it's an ex-employee or not. It's all true. Anyone who has played the game knows it's true. The part about the Prelude is true. It's the same upon release day. Game plays fine. Then comes the never-ending patches and updates which they use to gut the parts of the game they used as selling points. Doesn't matter now since they already got the purchase money and have people sucked into the game. I found it hard to play because just when I learned how to play, they changed things up so I had to re-learn how to play well. Had to do it over and over and over.

I see 2k as an underhanded, unethical company and I will never again buy ANY game with the 2k name attached to it.

[StyxTx]

The community would be outraged, but it wouldn't seem large enough since we're so divided. We're all separated apart eachother from the less popular NLSC forum... the ignored NBA2K subreddit... the heavily moderated Operation Sports and the twitter community who only care about pink diamond cards and belittling the devs.

I feel like we could have a much bigger impact as a community if the outrage was more centralised. A good example would be the Star Wars Battlefront II community being mainly centered on their subreddit. They made a huge impact on the game and got the entire internet to criticise EA's bad practices, eventually forcing the devs to remove the pay-to-win aspect from their game. They made a comment by an EA community account to have the most downvoted comment in Reddit history (which is what grabbed everyone's attention). This was only possible because a large amount of community was apart of that subreddit to downvote the comment in the first place.

Right now all of our criticisms are basically invalid since we're so separated. I mean just look at Operation Sports (arguably 2K's biggest community) around launch... it's heavily moderated and any criticism on the upcoming game is shot down immediately. This is why I think the "outrage" would be looked over and would seem so small.

Don't get me started on Operation Sports.

[TheRocket]

The community would be outraged, but it wouldn't seem large enough since we're so divided. We're all separated apart eachother from the less popular NLSC forum... the ignored NBA2K subreddit... the heavily moderated Operation Sports and the twitter community who only care about pink diamond cards and belittling the devs.

I feel like we could have a much bigger impact as a community if the outrage was more centralised. A good example would be the Star Wars Battlefront II community being mainly centered on their subreddit. They made a huge impact on the game and got the entire internet to criticise EA's bad practices, eventually forcing the devs to remove the pay-to-win aspect from their game. They made a comment by an EA community account to have the most downvoted comment in Reddit history (which is what grabbed everyone's attention). This was only possible because a large amount of community was apart of that subreddit to downvote the comment in the first place.

Right now all of our criticisms are basically invalid since we're so separated. I mean just look at Operation Sports (arguably 2K's biggest community) around launch... it's heavily moderated and any criticism on the upcoming game is shot down immediately. This is why I think the "outrage" would be looked over and would seem so small.

Don't get me started on Operation Sports.

Operation Sports is a 2k circle jerk

[Dee4Three]

Operation Sports is a 2k circle jerk

Imagine my defense thread on OS, it would have been taken down/locked almost immediately and I would have been banned if I kept talking about it. Which is a shame, it's not fair.

[Andrew]

Looking into it a little deeper, it's worth noting that the moderators over on the NBA 2K Reddit apparently know nothing of the allegedly deleted thread the video refers to:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA2k/comments/8w7t6s/2k_info/
https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA2k/comments ... _2k_leaks/

As such, the conclusion being drawn is that it's a clickbait hoax, and the absence of screenshots does support that suggestion. You'd usually expect someone to show their work and research in that regard. Even so, the assertions being made in the video are extremely plausible at the very least. They fit with what we've experienced, and the obvious MO of maximising recurrent revenue, while offering some straightforward and plausible explanations for certain design choices. Like I said, it's disingenuous to present it as something it's quite possibly not (i.e. a leak), but taken as a suggestion of what might be going on, it could be a guess that just happens to be accurate.

The Neighborhood is obviously a gimmick that encourages VC spending, while trying to make it more palatable by being an immersive world (in theory). Not giving gamers the ability to preview haircuts (and charging ridiculous amounts for them in the first place) can't be an accident or oversight in design. The same goes for the removal of Rookie difficulty and the difficulty multiplier in MyCAREER, which makes it tougher to earn VC. That much we can definitely ascertain ourselves; there are reasons for those choices, and they don't benefit the consumer. Again, I don't condone clickbait and pretending something is insider information when it's not (as may be the case here), but if we consider it to be a theory he's trying to dress up in a way that gets attention, it's quite feasible that he's correct.

For my part, I'm inclined to believe it's a theory that's probably mostly correct.

[[Q]]

I don't understand the point of using patches to remove good things from the game. How does that benefit 2k at all?

Shouldn't it be a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

Live did that this year as they broke under the pressure of people complaining about layups being too easy. Sure, that fixed live run and online vs play, but made playing the CPU a chore.

[Andrew]

Definitely. They needed to nerf the CPU's layups as well, but they left it too unbalanced. The perils of trying to appease online and offline gamers, though that is the challenge both EA and 2K need to tackle.

[StyxTx]

Did someone say 2k had at least 8 million sales this year? That comes up to what in earnings just off the sale of the game? Let's go with just $50 per sale. What does 50 X 8 million come up to? $400 million? You mean to tell me they can't survive off that without forcing microtransactions too? I call BS. They do not have to be that heavily dependant on VC. There is no way in hell that with the few changes they make in the game from year to year that they spend $400 million.

[[Q]]

Yeah but it's a business and they aren't a non-profit organization. They're not doing this out of the goodness of their heart just to "survive"

The idea is to make as money as they can while spending the least amount they can get away with. It's already proven they make a ton of money off VC so it would be silly not to encourage people to buy it

[bowdown]

I don’t mind microtransactions as long as they don’t design the base game to be a grind fest so people are frustrated into buying VC.

[Andrew]

Unfortunately, that's the current approach. Dial it back, add some proper matchmaking, and the situation will be a lot more consumer-friendly.

[StyxTx]

I don’t mind microtransactions as long as they don’t design the base game to be a grind fest so people are frustrated into buying VC.

And that is the issue. You are more or less forced to pay to compete. They give you a starting player that would be lucky to be a starter in college and expect you to grind just to get up to a level that you can actually perform on the court.

As long as it takes to do it by grinding, hell, the next version of the game will be out before you can reach a competitive level without buying your way up. Also, the grinding gets REALLY boring, REALLY fast.

The amount of credit you are given for performing each "practice" to get to the next upgrade level is pathetic but purposely designed that way. The amount of VC rewarded for playing a game, even with an A+ score for the game is also pathetic, but also designed that way.

Some people actually have lives outside of the game and don't have 10 hours or more per day to spend on grinding, so what choice do they have if they want to compete?

What ever happened to the days when you could turn on a sports game and actually play the sport? All this extra shit, oh yeah, the immersion aspect people always want, just makes the game boring. I don't want a gym simulator. I don't want a relationship simulator. I have fine relationships in my every day real life. I also don't want a life simulator. I have a real life. I just want a GAME, period. I only have a couple hours per day, on good days, to spend time playing games. After I spend the purchase price, I am not going to keep shelling out more to play, no matter what game it is.

One major thing I can say about NBA Live, you can improve your player pretty quick without buying your way up.

[StyxTx]

Yeah but it's a business and they aren't a non-profit organization. They're not doing this out of the goodness of their heart just to "survive"

The idea is to make as money as they can while spending the least amount they can get away with. It's already proven they make a ton of money off VC so it would be silly not to encourage people to buy it

Encouraging and forcing are two different things. You either pay for VC or you will never be able to compete by the time the next money grab is released.

[Dee4Three]

I don’t mind microtransactions as long as they don’t design the base game to be a grind fest so people are frustrated into buying VC.

And that is the issue. You are more or less forced to pay to compete. They give you a starting player that would be lucky to be a starter in college and expect you to grind just to get up to a level that you can actually perform on the court.

As long as it takes to do it by grinding, hell, the next version of the game will be out before you can reach a competitive level without buying your way up. Also, the grinding gets REALLY boring, REALLY fast.

The amount of credit you are given for performing each "practice" to get to the next upgrade level is pathetic but purposely designed that way. The amount of VC rewarded for playing a game, even with an A+ score for the game is also pathetic, but also designed that way.

Some people actually have lives outside of the game and don't have 10 hours or more per day to spend on grinding, so what choice do they have if they want to compete?

What ever happened to the days when you could turn on a sports game and actually play the sport? All this extra shit, oh yeah, the immersion aspect people always want, just makes the game boring. I don't want a gym simulator. I don't want a relationship simulator. I have fine relationships in my every day real life. I also don't want a life simulator. I have a real life. I just want a GAME, period. I only have a couple hours per day, on good days, to spend time playing games. After I spend the purchase price, I am not going to keep shelling out more to play, no matter what game it is.

One major thing I can say about NBA Live, you can improve your player pretty quick without buying your way up.

Well said!