The defense is broken - VIDEO #3 WITH SLIDER TWEAKS!

bongo88

consumer feedback is the ultimate feeback, it should be everything for a company.

Consumer feedback isn't the ultimate feedback. It should, but ultimate feedback are stock prices.
So you and me buy the game, we support de facto the direction of 2K.

By the way, don't act like you know me. You have no idea the hell I have been through in my life, don't "welcome to the real world" me, I am very aware of my surroundings and how horrible and unjust people and corporations can be.

I never pretend to know you or your life.
When i take your arguments, in a "bigger picture", you overreact that way
it's pretty hard to debate with someone whose reasoning is limited to "black or white", with no open mind.
So I will limit my interactions with you.

I probably shouldn't jump in on this thread, but I just couldn't resist sharing my thoughts lmao.

Anyway, seriously, 2K18 feels to me in most ways except that the CPU defenders do not understand how to GIVE ROOM FOR THE DRIVE AND BACK OFF. Ever single CPU defender almost always plays up on you, denying the jumpshot or forcing a dribble pick-up. As a consequence of this, we end up EASILY DRIVING PAST CPU DEFENDERS because they REFUSE TO BACK OFF.

I honestly think 2K should retune their defensive logic so that it becomes GIVE THE MID-RANGE JUMPSHOT OVER AN EASY LAYUP/PAINT BASKET. Right now, 2K CPU's defensive logic is PLAY UP ON THE DEFENDER AND TIGHTLY CONTEST EVERY JUMPER, AND PRAY THAT YOU DON'T GET BLOWN BY.

Either way, when the CPU drives on me, attacking the basket, I ALWAYS BACK OFF AND TRY TO CUT THEM OFF OR MEET THEM AT THE BASKET FOR A CONTEST.

But when I drive on the CPU, the CPU REFUSES TO GIVE ME SPACE SO I END UP DRIVING RIGHT PAST HIM USING ANIMATIONS. The CPU should GIVE ME SPACE FOR A PULL-UP JUMPER so that they can CONTEST AT THE RIM WITHOUT RELYING ON 2K'S BOTCHED ROTATIONS.

This is a core issue in 2K's defensive philosophy. 2K has always prioritized making CPU defense SUFFOCATING AT FACE VALUE by playing tight man-to-man defense instead of PLAYING BENEFICIAL TEAM DEFENSE BY PREVENTING A BLOW-BY (because a blow-by essentially means 4v5 unless you recover).

Have y'all ever wondered why, in 2K, the way to beat high-level CPU is always ATTACK THE PAINT, SHOOT FREE THROWS OR GET LAYUPS/DUNKS, BEING EFFICIENT? 2K, as a game, does not promote jumpshooting.

2K'S CPU INHERENTLY GIVES UP THE BLOW-BY IN FAVOR OF PREVENTING A MID-RANGE JUMPSHOT, which is so damn FLAWED.

Combine the blow-by and dribble penetration with bad CPU defensive rotations, you end up easy offense against a self-destructive and trash CPU defense.

ALL I WANT FROM 2K IS TO CODE THEIR CPU DEFENSE SO THAT THEY LEARN TO BACK OFF AND TEMPT US INTO SHOOTING JUMPERS, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY GIVING THE CPU A CHANCE TO CONTEST/DEFEND AT THE RIM WITHOUT BEING BLOWN-BY. ROTATIONS WOULD BE SO MUCH BETTER BECAUSE THE CPU WOULDN'T BE PLAYING 4V5 IF NONE OF THE CPU DEFENDERS GET BLOWN BY.

LeGod, That's some good post. Is there anyone tried to change the defensive settings for the CPU, maybe to sag off a little bit instead of playing close and tight. I'm not expert on the sliders and all but there must be someway to at least fix this issue even by a little.

right on, legod. I get played tight by the cpu 80% of the time, it's just ridic. ive stress tested ace by driving baseline and dunk cheesing the cpu play afyeter play and they refuse to adjust and gap me.

Consumer feedback isn't the ultimate feedback. It should, but ultimate feedback are stock prices..

Consumer feedback is still the ultimate feedback. For example, if everybody stopped buying Brawny Paper Towels, Brawny Paper Towels wouldn't exist. It's why companies need to reinvest themselves and products constantly to keep up with consumer demand.

I never pretend to know you or your life. When i take your arguments, in a "bigger picture", you overreact that way it's pretty hard to debate with someone whose reasoning is limited to "black or white", with no open mind. So I will limit my interactions with you.

Well don't "Real World" me.

In regards to big picture, I am looking at the big picture. I havn't been overreacting, I've been talking about the issues with the game, and the glaring issue of the VC approach. I consider issues like the VC one black and white, as well as the driving issue. absolutely. That driving issue exists 100% (Even you have said it numerous times in here). So I have not missed the big picture. Big picture is reviews dominated by favoritism that gives well over double the score of user reviews, showing a complete disconnect from the consumer base. Unfortunately, with no title competing at the moment (Live has improved, but not enough), they can get away with having ballooned sales because its really the only serious basketball title.

That's up to you about limiting interactions, I understand. Just know that this thread and other threads outside of modding exist for a reason. I think the discussion of gameplay in general on the NLSC needs to be amped up, as we seem to be mostly about modding, when gameplay issues and gameplay in general needs to be discussed more often.

To the people posting above me, I agree that the CPU plays tight often. And it shouldn't happen as often, however... even with the defender plays off (Like 3 to 5 feet off) you can still run forward and the defender will get on your side and you still get to the hoop.

sticky-fingers, you are just wrong dude and to be honest, whenever i read your post it sounds like trolling.

When I suggest to activate CPU ACE and help defense, is it trolling ? Have you tried ?

BTW skoadam, your great work for this community doesnt allow you to come here to bash me, even more without any argument.

Man you posted Joe Ingles movies with one drive against 42 years old Carter and one drive against Leonard and you want to say its some kind of norm in NBA for players like joe. You tryin to prove that driving to the basket all day long by any player is better than using dribble moves, speed, quickness to get to the rim in 2k17. Man its trolling.

It's not even about comparing, if the game was stand alone and 2K17 didn't exist, it would still be equally as ridiculous. Literally no skill involved to get to the hoop or really anywhere on the floor offensively.

The new system was very poorly executed.

Man you posted Joe Ingles movies with one drive against 42 years old Carter and one drive against Leonard and you want to say its some kind of norm in NBA for players like joe. You tryin to prove that driving to the basket all day long by any player is better than using dribble moves, speed, quickness to get to the rim in 2k17. Man its trolling.

No, i just say drive happens, just before Joe Ingles videos :

I write mostly because easy drives happen in NBA (but never in 2K16/17 vs HoF CPU)

Learn to read, don't take shortcuts.

Who's trolling so...

Not one person in here said that drives don't happen. Not one.

Bottom line: Lets squash the arguing. Sticky, I appreciate the support through 2K17, and I appreciate your effort trying to come up with a solution to the defense. I applaud that. It's been admitted that it's a big gameplay flaw by most everybody in here (Some thought it was, but not AS BIG as I did). The bottom line is, we all agree that the system needs some serious tweaking in a patch or 2K19.

Man you posted Joe Ingles movies with one drive against 42 years old Carter and one drive against Leonard and you want to say its some kind of norm in NBA for players like joe. You tryin to prove that driving to the basket all day long by any player is better than using dribble moves, speed, quickness to get to the rim in 2k17. Man its trolling.

i'll come defend sticky-fingers. i originally wrote this on page 1 of this thread, but i guess it wasn't a sound analysis because nobody replied to it. Take any quarter of any game and analyse the drives, most are either untouched or hipridden until help comes. For reference, the game below is 72-10 bulls. With the most athletic player to play the game: michael jordan defending stockton's dribble drives. (and a few other folks drives/defense).

tldr: there are 3 good defended drives out of 17 for the quarter. even chris morris (the possible equivalancy of joe ingles) could get to the basket untouched.

It is my opinion that 2k makes drives artifically difficult. I watched the video and was wondering what you expected the cpu to happen, because my memory itched that most dribble drives in the nba are hipriding or fairly untouched. I started looking around youtube for dribble drive highlights and found a few then got distracted by a 1995 bulls/jazz game. I watched the whole game last night, and saw so many dribble drives that i was gonna come back today and notate them.

full disclosure, i watched nba religously from 89-2001 or so. then life got busy and have watched much. caught a couple of finals games last year. lebron gave his best, that's for sure. oh, and was a jazz fan. born in 84. all us kids idoloized stockton (we new we'd never have malone stature, but we could play like stockton). never played basketball seriously, but plenty of pickup for fun. just wasn't athletic enough to pursue. that's how i got distracted by this jazz/bull game, but noticed so many drives through the 4 quarters to look at. i remember watching this game because i remember the jordan dunk in the second half. whole stadium cheering for jordan, lol. me too on the couch. couldn't help myself, that jordan for you.

sadly, only got through the first quarter due to time restraints, but you should watch the whole game. Its is just beautiful. anyways, the bulls went 72-10 that year, the jazz went 55-27.

examples of blow by drives:
link stockton blows by jordan. untouched. even worse than your 2k18 video.
link jordan with the drive untouched, little bit of hip riding, but so little i decided to put it in this category.

dribble drives untouched/hipriding

link stockton untouched help defense over
link stockton untouched through the lane
link not really a dribble drive, but longley to the basket untouched
link malone dribble drive untouched, help comes
link lol chris morris untouched with 4 bulls around him, lol
link morris untouched, help doubled
link stockton with a drive, morris with drive on kucos(mismatch)(possible morris charge), then kucos trying to hedge benoit liek players do in 2k(kukoc gets the foul) (this is an amazing camera angle of spacing on drives)
link bulls big man drive (cant tell who) it is kucos\
link malone drives untouched. jordan all over on defense-- where'd he learn to play defense, 2k? left his guy hornacek wide open, team rating going to go down haha
link bull big man caffey untouched with malone defending. runs into helps. good replay footage.
https://youtu.be/S850XEVcF58?t=1592 stockton dribble drive. not much pressure on carr drive. then too bad jordan missed end of quater shot. woulda been a good one.

good drive defense
link - very good dribble drive defense by jordan, but still not much touching, no hard hedge
link - stockton testing jordans dribble drive defense, still not much touching
link - stockton testing jordan again a simple twitch sends jordon into high alert (this one probably doesn't belong here. no drive occured)
link - hornacek playing point. jordan cuts him off. very different respect from jordan towards hornacek than jordan/stockton due to hornacek not athletic.

Transition defense
link pippen transition blows by malone
link jordan on semi trasition open jumper
link 2 plays stockton transition then jordan transition on next play
link malone trying to slam the ball against longley, (longle dodged) haha. then stockton playing dirty with dangerous defensive play in trasition (could be an injury on pippen if things went bad)
link horrible tranistion decision by bulls (cant tell who) felt like 2k

capitilizing on mistakes
link malone mistake jordan with defensive rebound capitilizing on malone mistake (perfect malone positioning)
link pippen mistake
link hornacek under the screen. jordan capitalizes.


random haha (mostly commentary lol )
link haha story about jordan going to local movie theater (random, lol)
link jordan attemptin 4 threes a game, so many!
link haha rookie ostertag... we jazz fans loved/hated that guy
link LOL LOL pippen with an airball freethrow we shoulda had reddit back then he woulda been roasted lol fans and commentators acknowledge it loool
link hornacek could shoot... 59% from 3 course it was early in the season... commentary
link haha, another pippen airball freethrow. bad night for pippen love them 90s utah fans haha, commentary about bleeding uniforms when washed, funny guys
link jordan all over on defense. where'd he learn to play defense, 2k? left his guy hornacek wide open, team rating going to go down haha

again, that was all in the first quarter. i watched the whole game last night. more examples in the next 3 quarters. no time this morning. outta the whole game dribble drives, most went untouched/hipriding. few were well gaurded. most relied on help defense to rotate.

now, this isn't the greatest sample size. I included the big men plays for variety. I'd need to watch a variety of games with a variety of players. But these bulls/jazz were no slouch on defense. i'd need a few more games to watch with different players... was gonna watch bulls/san antonion game on the sidebar, but this took too much time.

I say 2k makes dribble drives artifically difficult because according to my memory most drives are rather untouched. link 2k does stuff like this. i tried to find the equivallency in the nba and came up with this play. link not really a great example. doesnt seem to happen that often.

link possibly this play jordan/hornacek is equivalancy. but jordan knows he very much more athletic than hornacek and to jump that drive is quite a bit of quickness and defensive awareness from jordan. would another less equal player jumped that drive in that manner? dunno.

these are the other examples i found before getting distracted by the jazz/bull game
harden untouched on iso plays: link

link nice dribble drive breakdown. 2 drives on this play, 1st drive the pg recovers, but the 2nd drive follows the same hip riding motion almost untouched, the drive is ended by help defense in the paint, which led to the kick out

anyways, it's my opinion that this 2k, while not perfect, and while can be exploited if user want to, is moving in the right direction with the movement scheme. I am super impressed in the customability of this 2k. they added more movement sliders. the difference between tomba sliders here and shady sliders hereis amazing that you can get the game to feel so different.

with your video, the help defense should rotate more. i havent looked much into iso drive by plays to see how help defense rotates in real nba, but to say that this doesn't mimick nba drives just itches my memory wrong.

oh, transition defense... long passes can also be exploited. but i think its better than cpu ai deflecting passes that they not even looking at (happened lots on transittion in old 2k games). i got no problem with the transition defense clips you posted. in full transition defense (and transition defense that is just sets) all sorta things happen on defense/offense. its part of the game.

anyways, perhaps help should slide over more and movement can be slowed/sped up (both helped with nba2k sliders), but to say that nba players are always stonewalled on a dribble drive is just wrong according to my memory of the games i've watched.

the real question: is this game artificial, or are older 2k dribble drives artificial and this game more true to player movement.

in my opinion, the hip riding animation is a nice break from the stonewalling, but 2k needs to put even more seperation on drives.

ps. make sure you watch the 2 pippen airball freethrows my favorite clips of first quarter haha hate them bulls... boohoohooohooo gonna need tissues as i cry and cry on my way to work, haha

simply put: most dribble drives in the nba are either hip ridden or untouched.

wrote:
Ironically, I came here just to post the video of Semi vs Giannis Lol. It's the exact possession that you are talking about

https://streamable.com/tppzq

show me a quarter of basketball where this happens on "most" dribble drives. this is a perfectly defended basketball.... but how often does it happen in the nba? how often should it happen in a 2k bsketball game?

Now, should ostertag be driving by david robinson? no, never. Ostertag never once drove past anyone because he doesn't have the talent or handles. Now david robinson, he had both talent and excellent handles. He routinely drove to the basket.
Is there a problem with dribble drives? yes.
But nba players get to the basket untouched. The real question is, can they finish at the basket.... does help defense come... do they bumble the ball while driving... etc.
Can ostertag make a good dribble drive and finish in 2k18. yes he can. should he be able to exceute a perfect drive, most definitly not.
i have found that roster edits have provided very useful in mimicing real life. with my custom edits on ostertag, if i chose to drive anywhere he bumbles the ball, just as he should. Ostertag was no david robinson or prime shaq. those guys had handles.
should 2k have done proper roster edits? of course they should have, but i'm sure lots of priorites occure in a 1 year development cycle.

i dont buy 2k every year (most i get on steam sales), i passed on 2k15-2k17 because of this animation link. show me an nba quarter where that happens on every single drive.
with the new movement sliders and roster edits and tweaks to the blocking/charging fouls, i've improved 2k18 greatly. should 2k have done this in the past year of development, yes... but i'm sure the studio had lots of stuff to worry about from their publishers -- mostly milking the masses for VC money
take two owns both rockstar and 2k. go read how much gta5 has made in micro transaction. then you will understand why 2k basketball is headed in that direction. Take two certainly knows how to rake in money from the masses.

Bongo, you can drive whenever you want on anybody you want, anybody in the whole league. And finish over 60% and sometimes 70% doing it. Making it so dribble moves, strategy, anything else isn't needed. Better defenders in real life don't matter in the game, because they all get burned.

It literally is a gamebreaker because of that. What is said above is fact Bongo and Sticky. It feels foolish to even play it. When I do a dribble move I feel like an idiot, when I do anything that resembles strategy I feel like an idiot.

The system is so flawed.

i'll come defend sticky-fingers.

Thanx for the support bongo88 but don't waste your time because they keep one sentence and miss others like this one.

Can ostertag make a good dribble drive and finish in 2k18. yes he can. should he be able to exceute a perfect drive, most definitly not.

So you can't really debate.

i'll come defend sticky-fingers.

Thanx for the support bongo88 but don't waste your time because they keep one sentence and miss others like this one.

Can ostertag make a good dribble drive and finish in 2k18. yes he can. should he be able to exceute a perfect drive, most definitly not.

So you can't really debate.

And that's all I have been getting at. When you actually look at the evidence, the issue is a big one and cannot be debated. For those who don't want to fake sim, it is truly a gamebreaker.

We seem to all agree that it's a big issue. So we can stop arguing. The thread was created to shine light on the issues.

Where is Leftos, the community minded dev, on this?

Bongo, you can drive whenever you want on anybody you want, anybody in the whole league. And finish over 60% and sometimes 70% doing it. Making it so dribble moves, strategy, anything else isn't needed.

Your numbers: 70% of drives finish at the rim. 30% drives are well defened. Sounds like percentages pulled straight from the nba. like i said from the jazz/bulls game, 3 out of 17 drives in the first quarter were well defended. only a few options occur on a dribble drive: player bumbles the ball (no handles), player misses the layup (no finishing skill), player gets blocked by front defender or help defense (blocks dont happen that often https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/blocks-per-game range from 2.4-8.9 per game), or a foul is called. each one of these options can be adjusted with roster edit or movement slider.

Most drives in the nba get to the rim untouched. show me a quarter of nba play where most drives are well defended. it sounds like 2k watched hours and hours of tape and built a movement system to reflect that, because your own numbers are reflected in actual nba play.

Better defenders in real life don't matter in the game, because they all get burned.

nobody was a better defender than jordan. very few were more athletic than jordan. watch the whole jazz/bulls game. stockton got to the rim untouched whenever he wanted to. Show me any full game or quarter of game where an "elite defender" is defending 80% of dribble drives perfectly. The driving system in 2k18 reflects real nba players.

Can ostertag make a good dribble drive and finish in 2k18. yes he can. should he be able to exceute a perfect drive, most definitly not.

So you can't really debate.

why can't i debate? i have no problem with the movement in 2k18. i have a problem with their roster/movement sliders.

Ostertag should be able to drive to the basket. But: he should not be able to perform complicated dribble moves, because he had no handles. he should not be able to retain control while dribbling full speed, because he never was able to. he should not be able to make a complicated layup, because he could barely make a regular layup.
The only problem i have with 2k18 is when players with no handles are executing a perfect dribble drive. luckily, this is easily fixed with a proper roster edits. With roster edit i can fix ostertag so he act accordingly. Many players need are rated way too high and play outside thier skillset.
2k did not provide an accurate roster, but they did provide an accurate movement system framework. now that they provided sliders for topspeed, topspeed with ball, etc. things can be fixed. yes 2k should have developed all this properly, but i'm sure they have their reasons why they did not prioritize it within their development timeframe.
most dribble drives in the nba are untouched. even in the 80s and 90s. it's even worse nowaday. was watching a jazz/lakers game last week and rubio runs all over the court willy-nilly. like he's picking flowers in a meadow.

its 100% getting by the guy Bongo. It's not "Better defended", players just miss at the rim. It's literally 100% drive-by.

Everybody blends in together on the court, defenders, offensive players. It's no fun, nothing realistic about it at all.

Nobody ever gets shut off, nobody runs into a defender whos arms are stretched with ground stood. It never happens in this game. I literally just run by my defender to the hoop.

I showed me with whiteside driving from the perimieter and shooting close to 70% from the floor while winning the game easily (Up by a lot before shutting it off). It was on every possession, defense didn't adjust, defender didn't adjust, just boom.. to the hoop. Meanwhile, the Jazz were 3-19 and playing some of the dumbest offense I have seen an AI play, on the hardest level... with CPU sliders jacked up. Whiteside, from the perimeter, driving. No sugarcoating that. That's the problem, I make Leonard look like crap all game, I just blow by him and no help comes. Its a joke.

Why are we even arguing about this? that is CLEARLY a giant issue, the unbelievably horrible defense is on all 3 that I posted. Me just toasting Curry on the hardest level with CPU sliders jacked to 100 with Frank, literally getting by him 100% of the time with no help coming.

You can't argue the videos guys, you can't argue that it's not a big problem. Unless you are willing to fake sim for no reason.

why can't i debate ?

You can't debate with Dee4Three and skoadam. They take one sentence of our posts, and omit the rest, they take Dee's videos for granted, but not real videos from NBA.

i have a problem with their roster/movement sliders.

I start a MyLeague with All Teams (NBA/Classic/AllTime). While drive remains too easy, i can see more CPU defensive help, much more blocks.
I even can see CPU drive and push me the way.
So there's perhaps something to dig on roster edit.

Many players need are rated way too high and play outside thier skillset.

Again, pretty agree. Still on MyLeague, i played vs Dirk who dribbled like Curry and drove like Lebron.
Same for Wilt or KAJ for the dribble.

I literally posted videos of it happening in the game. My contest is that it's unrealistic and way to easy. Which part of that are you not taking seriously? Check Rudy Gobert and see what he holds his offensive player to in FG% (that stat is somewhere), can guarantee you it's nowhere near 70% from the field.

Go look at what Steph Curry holds his defender to in %, can guarantee it's not like 70%.

Blow bys on every play? Well, that means anybody could be a star. Anybody can be a slasher. I can start an association and score 100 points a game with Trevor Ariza on straight line drives.

I didn't say players never get the defensive player on his side. And, the better slasher do it more in real life. Never said it doesn't happen.

But 100% of the time? Guys... seriously...

So which part of I can score 100 points a game with any player on straight line drives and win by blowout do you guys disagree with?

I don't know how this affects anything, but this was addressed in Patch 5 that was just released on PS4:

https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/925870841757175808

I don't know how this affects anything, but this was addressed in Patch 5 that was just released on PS4:

https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/925870841757175808

Zig Zag wasn't eliminated, it just impacts the shooting percentage when taking a shot after zig zagging a lot, which he clarifies in his comments after somebody questions it.

It doesn't have anything to do with the straight line drive success. I was hoping it did.

It's a cheap online tactic though, so I'm glad it's been addressed nevertheless. Here's hoping it's effective.

Of course, that still leaves other gameplay issues to be addressed, including the one this topic has discussed in great detail.

I still wonder where's Leftos, the great community advocate, on this.

Just played a half (couldn't tolerate more) with the 95-96 Bulls vs the current Phoenix Suns. I played locked as the Center (Longley and Wennington), didn't call plays (didn't call ISO's), but did call for the ball and drove to the basket every time.

In a half, driving in a straight line every time with slow footed Luc and slower footed Wennington, this was the result:

HOF/Default Sliders

Bulls trail 65-62

Locked Center (Luc Longley and Bill Wennington): 24 - 56 shooting, 52 points (4 FT's hit with Longley, but lots of FT's missed with Wennington).

When you're constantly waiting for one side of the court to clear so you can drive Luc Longley or Bill Wennington through/around a defender to the basket for a reverse layup, you might have a broken game.

Hi all,Dee4Three is right.

I've played a whole season with OKC,and it is more than evident that to penetrate to basket this year is too easy.

I scored around 120 points each game at 12 minutes, and from those points scored around 80 points from the paint.HOF dificulty.

Not only that,i edited the sliders a lot of times, putting the defense in all aspects to 100%, and even so and risking to be unrealistic matches I have not got the cpu defend in conditions.

The only thing you have to do is go to the corner of the track and penetrate to basket with any player, even with the worst of the team, that the cpu will let you pass.Many times also the only thing you have to do is run forward, in fact you do not have to do a dribbling .... you need 0 skill.The gameplay of 2k18 is better than 2k17 in general,but this issue ruins the game.

I am playing 2k17 again because in general the cpu is a bigger challenge, although the movements are more robotics.

Regards and sorry for my bad english.

I had fun on 2K17 with Dee43's mods, but like you said, the movements are more robotics, i cant play it anymore.
It has flaws too. I wouldnt call a better challenge when on fastbreak any fast play can be stopped by any slow substitute Center because of the invisible wall (even with D43'sliders)

BTW I've found a way to fix this issue on 2K18. ISO system dont work anymore.
Ooops 2K did it again... i'll post a video later.

Coach' settings are the same for player and CPU. But CPU coach never changes, never adjust and default options are on manual or off.

Where's a quick video :

phpBB [video]

you had to do that before each game, because theses settings arent in an options menu.