A Jaeatribe on immigration... sort of

[J@3]

I've been wanting to post something about this for a while but the general intelligence level on this forum scares the living Christ (the one with the powers) out of me. In the same way that a small child operating a buzzsaw in a swimming pool would. Nevertheless.

As most of you have probably heard, there's been a spate of violent incidents against Indian students over here lately. The Indian media is going berserk over it and it's gotten to the point where large groups of Indians are gathering at train stations and such to protect their own people, this got me thinking about the general immigration/multiculturalism situation in Australia. As it stands right now, we currently have a higher percentage (of total population) of people born outside of the country living here than anywhere else in the World. The three biggest cities (Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydney) are absolutely full of people from varying nations, gradually because of a combination of living expenses plus sparse accommodation people are filtering out into the suburban areas surrounding as well. It's gotten to the point where not only the city itself, but each suburb can be categorized by the predominant race (i.e, St Albans in Victoria is full of Vietnamese people). And this is what bothers me.

To anyone with a half decent knowledge of history, there is no Australian "race" (unless you're me at 14 years of age). The natives of Australia technically are the Aboriginals, and the British settlers are now seen as "Australians"... so if I mention that, I am referring to people of British heritage.

If you go on holiday for say a week, you don't try to learn the language, you don't try to fit into the general culture, you just walk around wide-eyed looking at everything knowing that sooner or later you'll be going back home. I'm getting sick of people coming here and treating the country like it's a never-ending holiday. People come here, don't bother to learn the language, ignore all of our customs and apply their own, then find somewhere to live that already has a pre-existing community of the same race and then move there, thus segregating themselves and guaranteeing that they never are put in a position to bother trying to fit into what was once an English speaking nation.

Look at this as an example; lets say you were an American moving to France. You have two choices, you can move to a part of the country in which you will be forced to learn French, live the same way as the French do, respect their customs and generally try to fit in, or you could move to a town with a large population of Americans, not bother learning the language (why bother when everyone you know speaks English) and essentially act as if you are still living in the United States, despite being in France. That is an immensely small scale version of what is happening here. People, who have no interest in amalgamating themselves whatsoever, are just congregating in areas where they know they will be surrounded by people of their own race/nationality and essentially pretending to be living in a (nicer) version of their home country.

If a woman goes to a country under Islamic law she has to cover herself up, or face whatever consequences they may apply. People respect this, they may not like it but they do it because a) they understand it is a different country and things are done differently to what they're used to, b) the fear of prosecution legal or otherwise is enough to make them comply. Why aren't we afforded the same courtesy? People don't seem to come here anymore to live a certain lifestyle and try to integrate themselves in Australian society, they come here to basically set up shop as they have been doing. It's as if they're coming here against their will and just trying to hang on to their homeland, and obviously not bothering to at least learn the language means that they themselves feel isolated from the rest of us so they take comfort in knowing there's so many other people just like them living in a certain area.

Statistically I'm sure our immigration numbers aren't huge, and I know for sure they aren't the majority but the fact that they insist on congregating in certain areas means the population isn't being spread, rather just building up centrally to the point where not only are (for example) there a huge number of Indians in Melbourne, there's also Asians and Arabic people who've all had the exact same idea to gather with their own kind. When you get multiple nationalities, all from vastly different cultures to our own, gathering in one central place you suddenly have a situation where the actual "Australians" in these areas are either outnumbered or gradually dwindling as they move into other parts of the country because of the overcrowding in major cities due to this sort of congregating.

The worst part of this for me is the message these migrants hand down to their children. Alot of the children are born in Australia, raised in Australia and act as if they are foreigners and belong to a country alot of them have never even visited, so they themselves continue the tradition of congregating with their own and segregating themselves from the wider (Australian) population at the same time thus continuing the trend. Why is it that our country is viewed so negatively that people coming here from third world death holes don't even want to embrace the culture and people? And people wonder why there's still racism in Australia. You tell me how you'd feel if you were constantly surrounded by people who barely speak your language but take full advantage of every privilege provided to them. Oh I can go on Centrelink and collect money for my 700 children, but I'd much rather be doing this in Lebanon so I'll just pretend I'm still there. It has nothing to do with being racist or hating people from other countries, it has to do with not accepting the fact that huge groups of people want to move here and not even bother to attempt to integrate themselves in society. I don't want to go to St Albans and know it's full of Vietnamese people, I don't want to go to Footscray and know it's full of Asians, I don't want to go to Essendon and know it's full of Indians... where's the balance? What is so horrible about spreading yourself out and becoming part of the general population rather than forming your own separate populations in certain areas?

Admittedly in my head this whole rant is a little less convoluted but I'm sure the message is getting across. Is this happening elsewhere? Are other posters just accepting of it or are you getting sick of it as well? Does anyone have any insight as to why people are arrogant enough to assume that they don't have to bother trying to fit in at all?

[vinceair]

I am not against the immigration,because life in India is very poor etc etc.They hope to find a better life in Australia(a la "american dream") but,
i am against the language thing,you MUST learn that country language where are you moving at.There are poor possibilities to find a decent job if you can't speak proper english. And also you can't find Australian friends.Main problem is language.Language deficit creates barriers between people.

[Joe the Space Marine]

If people come to your country, look at you like you don't belong in your own country, don't learn the language and basically turn a part of it into their own country, it kind of pisses me off. But anything pisses me off.

[Indy]

I was under the impression that its very difficult to get a work visa in Australia and New Zealand as they only accept the most qualified professionals. I don't think you guys are really getting a flood of asylum seekers are you?

In any case, I think its important to strike a balance when you move to a new country with vastly different customs. For example in Chicago I love that we have Polish, Mexican, Puerto Rican, Chinese, Ukrainian, Korean etc. neighborhoods where people hold on to their roots and maintain their language. I think experiencing all of that makes you a more well rounded, worldly person. However, where I work is a very mexican neighborhood and I get annoyed when people come in and speak to me in Spanish and then get angry when I respond to them in English telling them I don't speak Spanish. You can't expect to have the exact same life you had in the country you lived in but you can't expect someone to forget everything and assimilate themselves either. You'll be more employable and meet more people if you make an effort.

[Its_asdf]

I can see a lot of parallels with what you're saying and the situation that is in Toronto (where I live). Toronto is a very multicultural city and many segments of the city are divided based on different ethnicities that live here. I'm a Chinese born Canadian that had parents that immigrated from Asia (I feel like a dipshit when people ask me where my parents came from because I sure as hell don't know because of their conflicting stories ). So I guess I can kind of see where both sides come from... With that being said, this snippet here doesn't really seem to apply to a place like Toronto though:

The worst part of this for me is the message these migrants hand down to their children. Alot of the children are born in Australia, raised in Australia and act as if they are foreigners and belong to a country alot of them have never even visited, so they themselves continue the tradition of congregating with their own and segregating themselves from the wider (Australian) population at the same time thus continuing the trend.

Chinese was my first language, but I've been so ingrained with "Canadian" english and culture that it's pretty much non-existant now. The same goes for almost every Asian born Canadian I know. Hell, even the children that could barely patch together a coherent sentence that I knew from a few years back are now fairly "Canadianized" (or however you want to say it).

I think that the generation after the immigrated parents are really accepting of the so called "Canadian culture" because basically Canadians at a young age are taught to embrace diversity; this theme is pretty much ingrained into the heads of almost everyone by the time they're in their teens. I think that if you show a culture or ethnicity that you care about their traditions, customs, and language through education, that culture can reciprocate and embrace the Nation's culture as well. The "treat others the way you want to be treated" theme is a fairly cliche one but I honestly think it applies with various cultures as well. In Canada there are festivals out the ass for every single possible minority out there to show that Canadians appreciate them and at the same time the other cultures begin to see the bigger picture and in a way can blend in much easier to its surroundings.

Not sure if any of that makes sense, I'm not very good at articulating what I think. It certainly sounded a lot better when I wrote it up in my head.

[Andrew]

If a woman goes to a country under Islamic law she has to cover herself up, or face whatever consequences they may apply. People respect this, they may not like it but they do it because a) they understand it is a different country and things are done differently to what they're used to, b) the fear of prosecution legal or otherwise is enough to make them comply. Why aren't we afforded the same courtesy?

I wonder that too and as you said, it has nothing to do with racism. I'm certainly not against immigration; my family wouldn't be here in Australia if it wasn't for immigration and since my father was born in England and came over here when he was 19, chances are I wouldn't be here if it wasn't immigration. But I do believe in the old adage of "When in Rome, do what the Romans do", so I certainly agree that we should all be afforded that courtesy with our customs and culture within our own countries.

[Donatello]

I am admittedly a bit ignorant on the subject, as I have always lived in areas that are fairly 'plain old american', and mostly keep to myself anyway. So because of that I really have no personal imput. I just wanted to respond to let you know it was an incredibly well-written and thought-provoking post. Thanks for it.

[Indy]

I'd like to add that I have no problem with assimilating Spanish in to American's lives more and more. There are at least 50 countries that have more than one official language, I think people are smarter when they grow up with two languages.

[MikeMan™]

Indians - India or Indians - North America ?

[J@3]

Sweet Jesus...

Anyway, onto people with functioning brains.

I was under the impression that its very difficult to get a work visa in Australia and New Zealand as they only accept the most qualified professionals. I don't think you guys are really getting a flood of asylum seekers are you?

I think they are alot more lenient towards large families from certain countries. For instance, there's an increasing number of migrants coming in from Iran and Iraq whereas in the past the population was virtually non existent. I'm fairly sure what alot of them do is get visitor VISAS (I believe they last for six months) then apply for asylum or whatever once they're here. I was under the impression it was hard to come here permanently too but I'd guarantee the people flooding into the country at the moment aren't neurosurgeons. Or maybe they were in their home country but are satisfied driving taxi's here.

I think that the generation after the immigrated parents are really accepting of the so called "Canadian culture" because basically Canadians at a young age are taught to embrace diversity; this theme is pretty much ingrained into the heads of almost everyone by the time they're in their teens. I think that if you show a culture or ethnicity that you care about their traditions, customs, and language through education, that culture can reciprocate and embrace the Nation's culture as well.

That's interesting, (something's up with my keyboard btw I can't seem to type in who I'm quoting ), do you think at any point Canada might've had a similar problem to Australia? It sounds like the "embrace diversity" thing could have been a result of the sort of segregation we have over here. I know for sure at the moment religion has alot to do with it, especially amongst Middle Eastern migrants since their religion is generally quite different to what people are used to so they band together because I suppose it's easier to stand out as a group rather than an individual.

I'd like to add that I have no problem with assimilating Spanish in to American's lives more and more. There are at least 50 countries that have more than one official language, I think people are smarter when they grow up with two languages.

I wonder what other Americans think of this? Would you guys be ok with Spanish becoming your second language? To me that would make people immigrating from Spanish speaking countries (well Mexico, lets be real) feel even less inclined to adjust to the culture over there, but maybe it's like that already I don't really know.

[Its_asdf]

Well Canada was probably just as racist and segregated if not more than the States were in the past (Sending all Japanese into government custody, Refusing a massive boat of Jewish refugees post WWII, horribly mistreated Aboriginals, etc.). I'm not sure exactly how it happened, maybe it was a gradual thing, but you see it heavily preached in schools (I forgot to mention the ton of secondary language classes that you could take for free in my elementary school) and the media.

I guess it also has to do with the fact that Canadians are supposed to be bilingual (French and English). Quebec is the province with a French majority, and they've always had a history of wanting to split from Canada because they feel that they're so culturally different from the other English-speaking provinces. I guess because they've been so close to splitting off from Canada that it made everyone a bit more tolerant of different cultures and embrace them for that matter.

Edit: I also like how you blenlded "diatribe" and "Jae" together. Masterfully and subtly done.

[shadowgrin]

Nice personal insights I got in this thread regarding Canada and Australia. Please continue.

Yes, Canada and Australia are my top choices to migrate when I get my shite together.

Carry on.

[Fresh8]

Wrote out a considerable chunk of notes but clicked submit and lost it all because I was logged out.

In summary, I think that if you enter a different culture, you should learn the language and the norms and try to fit in. You don't need to integrate yourself but at least assimilate yourself. The ideal position is for one to learn about the new culture but retain values and traditions of their 'old' culture. I think it's important to have that balance to ensure that cultures don't phase out over time.

When you mention migrant parents and what they hand down to their children, I do not believe they are being disrespectful. Firstly, migrant parents don't know the language because they probably arrived in the country at an age where it's hard to learn a second language. Without language, they won't learn the culture and they won't make friends from that new culture. When they have kids, the kids will be brought up with the values and traditions that the parents grew up with. The kids only experience the Western culture once they enter school. It is then where most of them will embrace the western culture.

In that scenario, I don't think that these parents are being disrespectful, because they do not have the means of learning english. And how do the parents pass on western tradition when they can't even speak the language? Most of these kids will end up being like being any other 'Western kids'... Then there are others who probably just hang with other asians... this is not being disrespectful because people hang out with others who have similar interests and beliefs and obviously, if you're asian, you have something in common.

Take me and my older brother for example. I hang out with mainly english speaking people and I like to do what all the other Aussie kids like to do. He, on the other hand, hangs out with all asians and does a lot of asian activites. I mean, I watch english television while he watches asian telvision. Does that make him any worse than me? No. And does that make him respect the aussie culture less than me? No. We both respect the culture as much as anyone else.

Although, I won't be ignorant, there are people out there who will move into a new culture and totally reject it. That's called ethnocentrism. I just don't think it's that common. The reason communities set up places like a Chinatown is so that those communities can gather there for celebrating improtant cultural dates and events, as well as celebrating their cultures, which I think is a good thing.

[Andrew]

In summary, I think that if you enter a different culture, you should learn the language and the norms and try to fit in. You don't need to integrate yourself but at least assimilate yourself. The ideal position is for one to learn about the new culture but retain values and traditions of their 'old' culture. I think it's important to have that balance to ensure that cultures don't phase out over time.

That strikes me as a fair compromise. If you're moving to a country where a different language is spoken, to really get by in that country and get any kind of decent job you will need to learn the language. What language you speak at home with your family is your own business and there's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage and practising different traditions. There's certainly nothing wrong with accommodating people's needs either eg. arranging translators for doctor's appointments and the like, but that option isn't available in all social situations so the bottom line is you've got to learn the language otherwise it's very difficult for everyone. You've also got to adhere to the society/culture's "norms" to a certain extent, as much you would expect people to show you that courtesy if they were vacationing in or emmigrating to your country and I think that's what Jae is getting at here.

[Fresh8]

I definitely see both sides to the argument and now that I look at what I've written, basically what I'm tyring to get at is that there are those who probably want to learn the language but can't whether it is finding time to or just can't learn it anymore (once people get past the age of 25, the brain's capacity and ability starts to decline which is why in order to learn a new language, it's best done when you are young). Because once you learn the language, the culture comes with it because both are intertwined.

And then there will be people who probably have the means to but don't because they don't want to. That is disresepctful. And then there are people who learn but still associate with their own community/culture because they feel most comfortable living that way and I think that is fair enough because it's free choice.

But to be honest, I can't think of any strong social norms or traditions that Australians have. One gripe though is we were at a dawn service on ANZAC Day and three French backpackers were there and talked throughout the service. I guess that's an example of disrespect. I can't think of any other situations off the top of my head.

[The X]

Take me and my older brother for example. I hang out with mainly english speaking people and I like to do what all the other Aussie kids like to do. He, on the other hand, hangs out with all asians and does a lot of asian activites. I mean, I watch english television while he watches asian telvision. Does that make him any worse than me? No. And does that make him respect the aussie culture less than me? No. We both respect the culture as much as anyone else.

You have an older brother?!?

But to be honest, I can't think of any strong social norms or traditions that Australians have. One gripe though is we were at a dawn service on ANZAC Day and three French backpackers were there and talked throughout the service. I guess that's an example of disrespect. I can't think of any other situations off the top of my head.

That's the French for you. They do have a nice country & lots of culture though, which is good. Shame about their arrogance

[el badman]

That's the French for you. They do have a nice country & lots of culture though, which is good. Shame about their arrogance

Not too sure what you're referring to...

[J@3]

When you mention migrant parents and what they hand down to their children, I do not believe they are being disrespectful. Firstly, migrant parents don't know the language because they probably arrived in the country at an age where it's hard to learn a second language. Without language, they won't learn the culture and they won't make friends from that new culture.

Then they shouldn't come here. If they can't learn the language for whatever reason (and seriously, if you're moving to a country that doesn't speak your language surely that should be your first priority) then they shouldn't be here in the first place.

Without language, they won't learn the culture and they won't make friends from that new culture. When they have kids, the kids will be brought up with the values and traditions that the parents grew up with.

And that's why they shouldn't come here if they can't learn the language to an acceptable level.

He, on the other hand, hangs out with all asians and does a lot of asian activites. I mean, I watch english television while he watches asian telvision. Does that make him any worse than me? No. And does that make him respect the aussie culture less than me? No. We both respect the culture as much as anyone else.

Ok, what if there were say... ten thousand people exactly like your brother living in one town. Would that not create a separation to the point of segregation?

[Fresh8]

Then they shouldn't come here. If they can't learn the language for whatever reason (and seriously, if you're moving to a country that doesn't speak your language surely that should be your first priority) then they shouldn't be here in the first place.

People move here not for themselves but for their children to have a better future. If they have the opportunity to move here, then they have taken it. To say they should not be allowed to move here because they can't learn the language/culture in the first place, I feel is a bit harsh. But each to their own opinion.

Ok, what if there were say... ten thousand people exactly like your brother living in one town. Would that not create a separation to the point of segregation?

No, because segregation would imply that you are living in your own comfort zone with no regard to those others around you. As I said, he respects the Western culture, he undertsands it, speaks perfect english but it's his choice who he hangs out with. If they like doing asian activities, it doesn't mean that they dont respect western culture, it just means they prefer doing asian activities.

You have an older brother?!?

Should have introduced you to him at my party. He was there. Will tell you on Sunday night.

[J@3]

People move here not for themselves but for their children to have a better future. If they have the opportunity to move here, then they have taken it. To say they should not be allowed to move here because they can't learn the language/culture in the first place, I feel is a bit harsh. But each to their own opinion.

But what if they don't have children when they come here? It's not harsh at all, it's ludicrous to think that they should be exempt from learning our language/culture because it's "too hard". It's a privilege to be here, not a right. Is this what happened with your parents? I'm having a hard time understanding why else someone would have such an excessively lenient viewpoint on it.

No, because segregation would imply that you are living in your own comfort zone with no regard to those others around you.

Segregation has nothing to do with having "no regard to others around you". The definition of segregation is:

The policy or practice of separating people of different races, classes, or ethnic groups, as in schools, housing, and public or commercial facilities

Sounds an awful lot like:

He, on the other hand, hangs out with all asians and does a lot of asian activites. I mean, I watch english television while he watches asian telvision.

. If they like doing asian activities, it doesn't mean that they dont respect western culture, it just means they prefer doing asian activities.

I have no problem with your brothers interests or whatever, but when a large portion of the population does this that is when it becomes a matter of segregation. I don't know what it's like where you live but in Sydney or Melbourne it's extremely rare to see an Asian with anyone outside of their race, in fact it's so rare that people actually take notice of it.

[Andrew]

There's also the issue of the law. A friend of mine is currently living and working in Saudi Arabia and naturally she has to cover her hair/face in public because that is the law. Things are slightly different in the hospital where she works and when she goes to the tourist areas in her time off but the rest of the time she has to cover herself as the law dictates. Which is fine, because that's their law and we must respect and follow that.

There was an issue a few months back where someone (I forget whereabouts in Australia he was from) was complaining that Islamic women in Australia kept their faces covered while visiting banks and I believe on their driver's license/other identification as well. Obviously that is line with their faith ,and that's where things get tricky, but by law in Australia you must remove motorcycle helmets, sunglasses, masks, etc, any kind of headwear that conceals your face when you enter a bank or finanacial institution (and I think certain other places, but definitely financial institutions). Needless to say, the wonderfully "unbiased" A Current Affair did their best to make the guy look like a racist and who knows whether he truly is or not but it was a fair point. It doesn't seem right if immigrants are exempt from Australian law when Australians must always follow the law in other countries or face penalties that can be quite harsh. Surely, it should work both ways.

It's a tricky issue because faith is involved and there's a differing view of women and society in general, but it would be arrogant of us to try and force our beliefs and views onto society in Saudi Arabia (for example) because their law is their own to set. But by the same token, our laws must be followed too. Surely, there's a better compromise.

[Fresh8]

But what if they don't have children when they come here? It's not harsh at all, it's ludicrous to think that they should be exempt from learning our language/culture because it's "too hard". It's a privilege to be here, not a right. Is this what happened with your parents? I'm having a hard time understanding why else someone would have such an excessively lenient viewpoint on it.

The reason for an influx of Asian migrants in the 80s was due to the Government's concerns for the people and wanting to offer them a second chance at life. That's when you have families as well as older people coming over to live in Australia. That doesn't happen anymore. These days, immigration laws requires the person to have certain degrees and qualifications to be able to be a permanent resident, to be a student to get a student visa. I don't recall any of the requirements is for the person to learn English. Obviously, it would help them to learn English as it will only be logical since they are to be working/studying here but it is not compulsory (which I believe has become a topic of debate for Government).

Should people be exempt from learning because it's too hard? Ok, my point is that you refer to 'migrant parents' passing on lack of Australian culture to their children. that's why I say, 'its a bit harsh if you send them all back now just because they don't know the language.'

You're confusing the two distinctly different groups. There are people who have been here a long time already and there's hardly anything you can do about them in regard to their language skills and/or whether they stay here. Then there are people who are coming in the present day who wouldn't be coming if they did not have at least a competent grasp of English. The people who don't speak the language were those of my parent's generation who came in the 80s... the people coming now would know English at a basic level to communicate.

The policy or practice of separating people of different races, classes, or ethnic groups, as in schools, housing, and public or commercial facilities

Ok, firstly, I don't know of any All-Asian schools in Brisbane. Same with public housing, are their public houses that accommodate for only Asians? I've never seen an All-Asian swimming pool or tennis court or shopping mall? Clearly, segregation does not exist (to my knowledge) in Brisbane... at least with Asians.

Segregation has nothing to do with having "no regard to others around you"

That was a poor definition on my part.

I have no problem with your brothers interests or whatever, but when a large portion of the population does this that is when it becomes a matter of segregation. I don't know what it's like where you live but in Sydney or Melbourne it's extremely rare to see an Asian with anyone outside of their race, in fact it's so rare that people actually take notice of it.

However, this is not segregation. As I said, Asians hang out with Asians because they have more similar interests than with others. It's the same with many different people of cultural backgrounds (Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese). These people hang out together because they have similar traits and values and beliefs. There's nothing wrong with that. Sure, they may be separating themselves from the wider Westernized Community but it does not mean that they disrespect Western culture. That's why I was using my brother and myself as examples.

And on segregation, I will post a definition later when I get home from Uni. However, in my opinion, segregation is like in the 90s when there were exclusively White and Black Schools. That's segregation and becomes that when one race believes it is better than the other: ethnocentrism. What you see happening in Australia is Cultural Assimilation - an adoption of some or all of the dominant culture.

There's also the issue of the law. A friend of mine is currently living and working in Saudi Arabia and naturally she has to cover her hair/face in public because that is the law. Things are slightly different in the hospital where she works and when she goes to the tourist areas in her time off but the rest of the time she has to cover herself as the law dictates. Which is fine, because that's their law and we must respect and follow that.

It's hard to compare two such contrasting countries with different laws and cultural norms and perceptions. You have to follow the law in Saudi Arabia by covering up. Even if you don't respect, you got to follow it because of the potential punishment. When you say 'if you respect another culture then they should respect yours', the whole 'covering up' thing is not a thing about disrespecting our culture, it is their religious faith. There is a fine line I believe and yes, it does make the situation tricky.

[Andrew]

It's hard to compare two such contrasting countries with different laws and cultural norms and perceptions. You have to follow the law in Saudi Arabia by covering up. Even if you don't respect, you got to follow it because of the potential punishment. When you say 'if you respect another culture then they should respect yours', the whole 'covering up' thing is not a thing about disrespecting our culture, it is their religious faith. There is a fine line I believe and yes, it does make the situation tricky.

But I'm not talking about disrespecting culture here, I'm talking about actual law. If you go to Saudi Arabia, you have to follow their laws...as it should be. It would be arrogant for us to go over there, to live or even just vacation, and not follow their laws and expect to get away with it. Likewise, if you're going to live or vacation in Australia, you've got to follow Australian law.

It's tricky because women covering their hair/faces is part of their religious beliefs and they are entitled to those beliefs and practices, but the problem is that somebody entering a bank or building society with their face covered directly violates Australian law. Our belief in Western countries that women are equal and do not have to cover up does not override their laws; is it fair that their beliefs override our laws?

So again, surely there has to be a better compromise that allows them their religious and cultural freedom without making them exempt from laws that the rest of us must follow. I'm not saying that Muslims or anyone else should be denied their beliefs and culture, far from it, but everyone who lives in a country or vacations there must follow that country's laws.

[benji]

Language is a major issue in the United States. For one thing, until the current crop, it's been prohibitively expensive to acquire teachers with multiple language skills. Also, we chose English as a defining characteristic. So there is that tension.

As one nutjob puts it, "language, culture, borders." He's not wrong, but the order is. We have very insecure borders for example. Despite all the regulations the two physical borders are pourous, and the "legal" ones only slightly less so. (All the 9/11 hijackers were here legally, had acquired valid drivers licenses, etc. Same with WTC93.) Since enforcing English-only would be "racist" there is no push to enforce it, instead it's accomidated.

This causes problems with culture shock. When people have Spanish all around them, which they don't understand, they feel excluded and likely move or get resentful. When you see things like people needing a family member to translate a drivers test for them, and knowing enough Spanish to know they're just telling them the answers to mark, it doesn't become unfathomable to put yourself in these peoples shoes. (I'm strongly pro-immigration btw, being a liberal and all, just not illegal immigration. That needs to be cracked down on merely to scare them off, and the regular legal immigration managed better to let them back in through the proper channels.)

Since, they view the culture as different, primarily through the inability to understand, they become angry at it and fearful of it surpassing theirs. And whereas many people have no problem giving welfare to the poor, or accomodating kids in schools, etc. They have no problem seeing this as a problem when being given to people who have broken the law and should not be here. We're a tribal race, and we don't like having to give up for people not in our tribe. (Country in this case if you don't follow, assuming of course anyone is still reading.)

In the end, it comes down to considerations of the existence of the state. Forcing everyone into a common culture (not legally, but socially) provides for a coherence of society. This is why the melting pot model was so beloved for centuries. The tired, huddle masses would come over, but they'd tie into the groups established and make themselves into citizens and their descendents would be indisguishable. Now, we believe in the "tossed salad" model. Each culture should remain seprate and individual, and the diversity is what we love. Some see it as a small scale model of the world. (Even though French, and now English are the primary language of the powers that be.) Others fear Balkanization.

The Saudi Arabia example is interesting in the context of certain Islamic immigrants to various European nations, the UK and Canada refusing to accept their laws, demanding Sharia Law instead (sometimes getting it), and actively promoting the demographic advantage. As many doomsayers note, in a few decades, Europe will be Islamic, and the US will be Hispanic.

[The X]

I wonder if the Muslim loans that the big Australian banks are going to start offering in the near future will be available to non-Muslims....

I agree with Andrew....if you want to go into a bank or get a driver's licence, you must take the head/face covering off....I don't think religion can be argued as Australia is not a Muslim state....they can wear it where the law doesn't forbid it....