Abortion Thread ---->

[Jona]

I haven't seen a lot of moral debate in here, so I will start one!
What does everybody think about abortion??
Could it be legal under certain circumstances?? (E.g. raped 15 year old)
Could it be legal under ANY circumstances?? (E.g. casual unprotected sex)
Is it the lowest form of inhumanity and cruelty and should be penalized with life in prison??
I hope we have a healthy discussion.

[Matthew]

It will start off a healthy discussion but will turn into a flame. Therefore I must lock this thread before any trouble arises..

Just kidding

Abortion imo is the lowest form of humanity. I'm all for choice, but what choice does the baby have? It's totally wrong that a mother can abort a child and the father has no say imo, its his kid too. If a mother can create it, and not want a child and fail to use contraceptives, then its her responsability to at least give birth to it and allow it to be put up for adoption.

How anyone can say its not murder is a joke. And before anyone asks, im not religous

[J@3]

Nice thread jona, good to see you're looking to contribute around here

[/end mod mode]

What does everybody think about abortion??

I think it's something that's necessary in society. I mean, no matter what people think of abortion itself, one thing that isn't going to change is that not EVERY baby born is actually wanted. I know it'd sound harsh to some to hear a 19 year old girl or whatever say she doesn't want her baby because it'll mess up her social life or whatever, but having a child is alot more than just a moral issue. If she had that baby, that would mean a life time of having another human being fully dependant on her and not everyone is ready for that.

Could it be legal under certain circumstances?? (E.g. raped 15 year old)

I think it should be legal under any circumstances.

Could it be legal under ANY circumstances?? (E.g. casual unprotected sex)

Ah, yes lol

Is it the lowest form of inhumanity and cruelty and should be penalized with life in prison??

I don't think so. I don't view it as murder as Matthew does (even though essentially that's what it is), but look at it this way... would you rather be born into a family that doesn't want you, and therefore probably can't be stuffed looking after you properly. I mean not every un-wanted child gets put up for adoption. My brother got involved in a project through Tafe where he goes to a school that has some troubled kids there... some of the things he's told me about them is amazing. I won't list the things that happened just out of respect to the people it happened to, but it's really horrific. The reason behind these things happening to them? The parents didn't want kids.

I absolutely 100% agree with what Matthew said about the father having no say. I mean I mentioned a 19 year old girl getting pregnant above, but what if the 19 year old father is more than willing to take the baby and raise it as his son? I know alot of the times when abortion is considered the father is probably some dipshit who didn't know how to put his condom on properly when he screwed a girl he met at a club, but there are also alot of genuine cases where the father's just left out in the cold and the mother gets to do whatever she wants.

I can see where Matthew's coming from, it's an argument I've heard before... morally I agree with it, but personally I can't.

[Jowe]

It should be legal, but there should be a time period that a person would be able to abort it.

Ie' before it develops into something that resembles a human.

THe main reasons is when a family has an unwanted baby, it usually causes a financial burden on the family pushing them further into the red alot of the time.

[Colin]

I agree with Jae, and what he said he agreed with Matt on. Pops needs a say. Maybe there could be an abortion commitee or something that listens to your for 15 minutes and decides whether or not you can get an abortion. That could be too costly though...

[Matthew]

I don't think so. I don't view it as murder as Matthew does (even though essentially that's what it is), but look at it this way... would you rather be born into a family that doesn't want you, and therefore probably can't be stuffed looking after you properly. I mean not every un-wanted child gets put up for adoption. My brother got involved in a project through Tafe where he goes to a school that has some troubled kids there... some of the things he's told me about them is amazing. I won't list the things that happened just out of respect to the people it happened to, but it's really horrific. The reason behind these things happening to them? The parents didn't want kids.

I understand that some families cant afford kids, but why not let the baby be born, then put it up for adoption? That way the father will be given an opportunity to gain custody of the child, or a family who wants a kid will be. As for the financial burdon of pregnancy, well, they made that kid. If i got and shoot someone, and I have a family, and i get sentenced to jail, it doesnt matter what burden i put on my family financially does it? It's all about accepting responabilty for the actions that you take.

Maybe there could be an abortion commitee or something that listens to your for 15 minutes and decides whether or not you can get an abortion. That could be too costly though... Confused

Maybe they could get magistrates or judges to hear such cases?

[Matt]

It should be legal, but there should be a time period that a person would be able to abort it.

there is, i dont think you can abort past 3,4 months, not sure, but i know there is a time period to do it in.

OK, I'm strongly anti-abortion. I look at it this way....when you abort a baby, you kill a living being, therefore in my mind abortion is like MURDER! People that get murdered don't ask to die, they don't have a choice and neither do babies.

Unfortunately rape happens, and it's a tough situation to be pregnant at 15 after being raped but i'm still anti abortion on this...theres another word that can be used ADOPTION. Perhaps we should deal with preventing rape first before talking about aborting a child. IMO girls 'ask' to be raped. It's not that they want to be raped, but they crave the attention of the male eye and it's evident in the way they dress....hope that makes sense.

[J@3]

I don't think so. I don't view it as murder as Matthew does (even though essentially that's what it is), but look at it this way... would you rather be born into a family that doesn't want you, and therefore probably can't be stuffed looking after you properly. I mean not every un-wanted child gets put up for adoption. My brother got involved in a project through Tafe where he goes to a school that has some troubled kids there... some of the things he's told me about them is amazing. I won't list the things that happened just out of respect to the people it happened to, but it's really horrific. The reason behind these things happening to them? The parents didn't want kids.

I understand that some families cant afford kids, but why not let the baby be born, then put it up for adoption?

I agree that's the best way to do it, but unfortunately it's not always the case... like I said, alot of parents seem to rather mis-treat their child instead of going through the bother of putting it up for adoption. It's disturbing.

That way the father will be given an opportunity to gain custody of the child, or a family who wants a kid will be. As for the financial burdon of pregnancy, well, they made that kid. If i got and shoot someone, and I have a family, and i get sentenced to jail, it doesnt matter what burden i put on my family financially does it? It's all about accepting responabilty for the actions that you take.

Yeah, personally I don't really see financial burden as an excuse. I mean it's more than possible to raise a normal happy kid when you're poor, throw in the government payouts and whatever and I can't see anyones financial situation being able to influence an abortion decision.

IMO girls 'ask' to be raped. It's not that they want to be raped, but they crave the attention of the male eye and it's evident in the way they dress....hope that makes sense.

Sorry Matt, I like you and all but that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Admittedly there are girls who do dress like whores, but that's not all of them. What about the 80 year old women who get raped? They're not exactly wandering around in mini skirts with fish-net stockings are they. I don't see why people can't crave attention from the opposite sex, I mean it's alright for guys to go out wearing whatever they want and attracting girls yet nothing happens... but if a girl goes out trying to show off something she might be proud of (her body or whatever) and she gets raped it's her fault? I don't think so. If a shop has a display stand out the front with all sorts of things, would you think it's alright for people to just go up and take them? Everyone has the right to feel safe, and saying that the way girls dress is almost a justification for rape just isn't right.

[Linguo]

Being a catholic, I am against abortion. I don't think it is right to *murder* a being that has a chance at life. The pope can suck my dick though. I wish the old fart would just die already

[Jona]

IMO girls 'ask' to be raped. It's not that they want to be raped, but they crave the attention of the male eye and it's evident in the way they dress....hope that makes sense.

Sorry Matt, I like you and all but that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Admittedly there are girls who do dress like whores, but that's not all of them. What about the 80 year old women who get raped? They're not exactly wandering around in mini skirts with fish-net stockings are they. I don't see why people can't crave attention from the opposite sex, I mean it's alright for guys to go out wearing whatever they want and attracting girls yet nothing happens... but if a girl goes out trying to show off something she might be proud of (her body or whatever) and she gets raped it's her fault? I don't think so. If a shop has a display stand out the front with all sorts of things, would you think it's alright for people to just go up and take them? Everyone has the right to feel safe, and saying that the way girls dress is almost a justification for rape just isn't right.

I agree with that argument entirely.
How could it be a girl's fault if she is raped, let alone 80 year olds OR 5 year olds!!
Judging from Matt's post, I can infer that he thinks that only gorgeous and slutty 20 year old girls get sexually assaulted. That is bullshit.
Anyhow, I think that after a violation, the girl should have the ultimate decision if she should abort or not.

[air gordon]

personally, outside of murder, i think rape and child molestation are the lowest forms of humanity...

i am pro choice. men and women need to be responsible for their actions but if you force people to have the unwanted baby, normally it's the baby who suffers the most in the end.

one my close friends has had several abortions when she was still in college. i could understand why she chose to do that. it's easy to sit here and be a "monday morning quarterback" and say money shouldn't be a big reason to have an abortion. but think about it - imagine you're the one having a kid. if you have a job, you have to quit (the women). if you're going to school, you have to drop out. your boyfriend's who's attending college/high school also, has to get a full time job. doing what? who knows but it won't pay good since he has no degree. and you'd be lucky if your parents will take you in and still have the means to support you during the pregnancy. possibly you'll also have to get married, depending on your cultural background and religion. sure you'll get some kind of help from the government depending where you live, but it's not something that's going to keep coming in the mail or something to depend on heavily. that's just the start. say good bye to your social life- your friends are living the 'normal' life...going out drinking, partying, whatever while you're home watching the kid. then after the pregnancy, there's child daycare you have to pay for, the medicince, doctors fees, etc.. then eventually setting up a college fund for the kid. being a parent is a life-changing event. it's a 24hr job that you can't quit. if you're not ready $-wise and emotionally, you should have that choice to be one or not.

as far as adoption goes, it's a tough situation. mother's will always have that connection with their baby. say at the time of the pregnancy, the women was not financially or emotionally ready to have a kid so she puts the kid in foster care/adoption. but later on, she's financially stable and what not. does she have the right to see her baby? does the foster parent have the right to keep their child away from its real mother? i don't know. it's just a sticky situation i wouldn't want to be put in.

as far as the moral issue, i believe that's something to take up with the man upstairs

[Jona]

Being a catholic, I am against abortion. I don't think it is right to *murder* a being that has a chance at life. The pope can suck my dick though. I wish the old fart would just die already

OMFG.
How can you call yourself a catholic if you wish the Pope would die??
He's almost the base of every faithful Christian.
If you can even be called a catholic, you're a bad one and you'll rot in your catholic hell .
Forever.

as far as adoption goes, it's a tough situation. mother's will always have that connection with their baby. say at the time of the pregnancy, the women was not financially or emotionally ready to have a kid so she puts the kid in foster care/adoption. but later on, she's financially stable and what not. does she have the right to see her baby? does the foster parent have the right to keep their child away from its real mother? i don't know. it's just a sticky situation i wouldn't want to be put in.

as far as the moral issue, i believe that's something to take up with the man upstairs

If she wants to see her baby, its up to the foster parents. But if the baby is in an age where he/she has values and morality, he may want to see his biological mother, that is very common among adopted infants.
Of course the foster parents can keep THEIR child away from the mother, unless the child decides otherwise. I don't think it would be healthy or correct in any way, not let an adopted child to see his bio mother.
My two cents.

[Linguo]

Being a catholic, I am against abortion. I don't think it is right to *murder* a being that has a chance at life. The pope can suck my dick though. I wish the old fart would just die already

OMFG.
How can you call yourself a catholic if you wish the Pope would die??
He's almost the base of every faithful Christian.
If you can even be called a catholic, you're a bad one and you'll rot in your catholic hell .
Forever.

I think the catholic religion would be better off if he were gone. That's all. The base of every faithful christian is Jesus Christ. Der!!!

[Amphatoast]

abortion in my opinion is wrong.
Not ready for kids?
KEEP YOUR DAMN PANTY/THONGS ON
Really, its simple. Sex isn't something to be messing with.
Seeing a 19 year old girl suffer with a child? I actually won't care- she shouldn't of had sex then. You decide to have intercourse, well there are risks to it and you have to live with it.

now the only case where I think it might be a bit of a thought is if they get raped. You see, now if that 19 year old was FORCED to have sex with a man now in prison, I don't think the child should have to live through a life without a father and a father who 'raped' his/her mother.


but for normal boyfriend/girlfriend relationships and saying "YES I WANT TO DO IT" and not being FORCED by a UNKNOWN person, i feel the woman is at fault.

i know some will disagree especially boys cuz they might say what i am trying to say is that if your 16 and wanna have sex with a 16 yr old girl u shouldn't since she can't handle the child if it comes to that. Well, I'm not neccesarily saying that, but in a way, you wait too damit. Just cause you just stick it up there thingy and got the easy job ( well easy as in not having kids in you) doesnt mean you do that. Man it's tough to say, sex can be great, but damit you just gotta watch yourself.
It's a tough subject, blame it on so many boys desire who try to do a man's job.

[Matt]

Quote:
IMO girls 'ask' to be raped. It's not that they want to be raped, but they crave the attention of the male eye and it's evident in the way they dress....hope that makes sense.


Sorry Matt, I like you and all but that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Admittedly there are girls who do dress like whores, but that's not all of them. What about the 80 year old women who get raped? They're not exactly wandering around in mini skirts with fish-net stockings are they. I don't see why people can't crave attention from the opposite sex, I mean it's alright for guys to go out wearing whatever they want and attracting girls yet nothing happens... but if a girl goes out trying to show off something she might be proud of (her body or whatever) and she gets raped it's her fault? I don't think so. If a shop has a display stand out the front with all sorts of things, would you think it's alright for people to just go up and take them? Everyone has the right to feel safe, and saying that the way girls dress is almost a justification for rape just isn't right.

i think you (and everyone) misunderstood what i was trying to get across. I was being vague in what i said and i used the term 'ask' loosely.

Anyways.....Yes, it's ok for a guy to wear what he wants. Why? because he won't get raped (unless he's in jail and walking around naked). Girls on the other hand are vulnerable because guys are a bunch of horny bastards. Girls need to know that what they wear affects the people around them, sure they might be proud of certain body parts and want to show them off but some guys when they see ass they start harassing. It's not the girls fault that she gets harassed, but it can be prevented at the expense of covering up. Your more likely to pay more attention to a girl that is scantily clad than one that is dressed like a nun.

There is no justification for rape, but a lot of it can be prevented. It is unfortunate that young kids get raped and old women, but most certainly rape numbers can be limited. I'm gonna take a guess and say that in the 60's the amount of rapes was less than it is today, this probably can be attributed to the conservative nature of dressing and higher moral values (bikins were thought of as outrageous in Australia in the early 60's). Secondly, rapists tend to have a deep obsession with porn. Convicted criminals often confess to having being addicted to porn....Ted Bundy (raped and killed at least 38 women) said that his actions were spawned from porn. Today porn is so readily available that we could be breeding plenty of future sex offenders. Porn is readily available for free on the net whenever you want, there are sex shops everywhere etc and the opportunities for raping someone are abundant too........hope that clears things up.

Anyways back to Abortion.....

The pope can suck my dick though. I wish the old fart would just die already

tsk tsk tsk, blasphemy against the church....enjoy hell.

Not ready for kids?
KEEP YOUR DAMN PANTY/THONGS ON
Really, its simple. Sex isn't something to be messing with.
Seeing a 19 year old girl suffer with a child? I actually won't care- she shouldn't of had sex then. You decide to have intercourse, well there are risks to it and you have to live with it.

that's 100% on point. You live with the consequences of your actions....don't want kids, chop off your BF's nuts (haha) of keep your legs closed.

[Joycean Summons]

Nice thread jona, good to see you're looking to contribute around here

[/end mod mode]

What does everybody think about abortion??

I think it's something that's necessary in society. I mean, no matter what people think of abortion itself, one thing that isn't going to change is that not EVERY baby born is actually wanted. I know it'd sound harsh to some to hear a 19 year old girl or whatever say she doesn't want her baby because it'll mess up her social life or whatever, but having a child is alot more than just a moral issue. If she had that baby, that would mean a life time of having another human being fully dependant on her and not everyone is ready for that.

Could it be legal under certain circumstances?? (E.g. raped 15 year old)

I think it should be legal under any circumstances.

Could it be legal under ANY circumstances?? (E.g. casual unprotected sex)

Ah, yes lol

Is it the lowest form of inhumanity and cruelty and should be penalized with life in prison??

I don't think so. I don't view it as murder as Matthew does (even though essentially that's what it is), but look at it this way... would you rather be born into a family that doesn't want you, and therefore probably can't be stuffed looking after you properly. I mean not every un-wanted child gets put up for adoption. My brother got involved in a project through Tafe where he goes to a school that has some troubled kids there... some of the things he's told me about them is amazing. I won't list the things that happened just out of respect to the people it happened to, but it's really horrific. The reason behind these things happening to them? The parents didn't want kids.

I absolutely 100% agree with what Matthew said about the father having no say. I mean I mentioned a 19 year old girl getting pregnant above, but what if the 19 year old father is more than willing to take the baby and raise it as his son? I know alot of the times when abortion is considered the father is probably some dipshit who didn't know how to put his condom on properly when he screwed a girl he met at a club, but there are also alot of genuine cases where the father's just left out in the cold and the mother gets to do whatever she wants.

I can see where Matthew's coming from, it's an argument I've heard before... morally I agree with it, but personally I can't.

I totally agree

[Matthew]

personally, outside of murder, i think rape and child molestation are the lowest forms of humanity...

i am pro choice. men and women need to be responsible for their actions but if you force people to have the unwanted baby, normally it's the baby who suffers the most in the end.

one my close friends has had several abortions when she was still in college. i could understand why she chose to do that. it's easy to sit here and be a "monday morning quarterback" and say money shouldn't be a big reason to have an abortion. but think about it - imagine you're the one having a kid. if you have a job, you have to quit (the women). if you're going to school, you have to drop out. your boyfriend's who's attending college/high school also, has to get a full time job. doing what? who knows but it won't pay good since he has no degree. and you'd be lucky if your parents will take you in and still have the means to support you during the pregnancy. possibly you'll also have to get married, depending on your cultural background and religion. sure you'll get some kind of help from the government depending where you live, but it's not something that's going to keep coming in the mail or something to depend on heavily. that's just the start. say good bye to your social life- your friends are living the 'normal' life...going out drinking, partying, whatever while you're home watching the kid. then after the pregnancy, there's child daycare you have to pay for, the medicince, doctors fees, etc.. then eventually setting up a college fund for the kid. being a parent is a life-changing event. it's a 24hr job that you can't quit. if you're not ready $-wise and emotionally, you should have that choice to be one or not.

as far as adoption goes, it's a tough situation. mother's will always have that connection with their baby. say at the time of the pregnancy, the women was not financially or emotionally ready to have a kid so she puts the kid in foster care/adoption. but later on, she's financially stable and what not. does she have the right to see her baby? does the foster parent have the right to keep their child away from its real mother? i don't know. it's just a sticky situation i wouldn't want to be put in.

as far as the moral issue, i believe that's something to take up with the man upstairs

I agree with rape and child molestation being amongst the worst things humans can do. However, with the pregnancy and abortion issue, I think that if she took the risk, then she should accept the consequences. The way I look at it (and tell me if its wrong) is say a woman is running late to work, becuase she slept in (we all like to sleep in, like we all like to have sex, but it has its consequences, just like sex..) and theres an old man crossing the road, and the woman runs him over becuase she is late to work, and cant be inconvienced by this old guy. Is this right also? I mean, she cant risk losing her job so she has to get to her job on time.

Sometimes we all get inconvienced, and a woman doesnt have to keep her baby. She can put it up for adoption after its born. Just becuase it might be an inconvience is no excuse to kill the child.. IMO it at least deserves a chance at life, and its being robbed of that becuase of selfish reasons...

[The X]

I'm pro choice, it's up to the girl and guy....it doesn't really bother me if someone aborts as long as it's well-thought through and is in the 1st trimester....

I do not agree with 2nd trimester abortions unless it's for medical reasons (ie. the expectant mother might die or have serious health complications if pregnancy continues)....

I also think abortion is the correct option in cases when the baby will be born with down syndrome and other serious medical problems....I would not want to burden a human being with that from their inception....

all that being said, I think if I knocked a girl up, regardless of my circumstances at the time, I would not want the baby to be aborted (unless the baby had medical problems ie. down syndrome etc)....the baby is an extension of myself genetically and I just wouldn't want to do it....and if a girl decided to abort against my wishes I would imagine that it would probably crush me, more so if I wasn't consulted about it....

that's my 2 cents worth....

[Drex]

I mean I mentioned a 19 year old girl getting pregnant above, but what if the 19 year old father is more than willing to take the baby and raise it as his son? I know alot of the times when abortion is considered the father is probably some dipshit who didn't know how to put his condom on properly when he screwed a girl he met at a club, but there are also alot of genuine cases where the father's just left out in the cold and the mother gets to do whatever she wants.

But it's the mother that goes through the 9 months. That's the reason women choose to abort or not.

[J@3]

Nine months out of an entire lifetime is nothing in the scheme of things.

[Drex]

But it's not like a walk in the park, either. Women goes though a lot of changes in that period.

[air gordon]

I agree with rape and child molestation being amongst the worst things humans can do. However, with the pregnancy and abortion issue, I think that if she took the risk, then she should accept the consequences. The way I look at it (and tell me if its wrong) is say a woman is running late to work, becuase she slept in (we all like to sleep in, like we all like to have sex, but it has its consequences, just like sex..) and theres an old man crossing the road, and the woman runs him over becuase she is late to work, and cant be inconvienced by this old guy. Is this right also? I mean, she cant risk losing her job so she has to get to her job on time.

Sometimes we all get inconvienced, and a woman doesnt have to keep her baby. She can put it up for adoption after its born. Just becuase it might be an inconvience is no excuse to kill the child.. IMO it at least deserves a chance at life, and its being robbed of that becuase of selfish reasons...

you're wrong!
i understand what you're saying. i just don't agree. everyday we make decisions that effect our life. but i think there's a difference between being morally right& being practical and unfortunately you can't do the morally right all the time

incovenienced? it seems like you use that word quite loosely. something like having a hangover and pregnancy are two different things. this isn't like i didn't study for a test since i was out partying the nite before and up failing. i think it's inaccurate to lump living the consequences of that and abortion in the same group. like i said, having a child is a life changing decision

and as i mentioned earlier, it's easier to point out things when you're the one that's not adversely effected.

at your current age, say you have an unplanned pregnancy or your girlfriend is "late". what will be the first thing that comes to mind? will it be along the lines of...
we have to have this baby, it deserves a life. we're not even in love.
or
i'm only [insert age]! we can't have this baby. i can't even balance my own checking account. what are we going to do! my parents are going to kill me!
or
other?? you guys tell me.
for me, when my girlffriend was late, i put a whole in the ground for all the praying i was doing, hoping she wasn't pregnant

and for you people talking about abstenence.. how are them blue balls

[J@3]

LMAO!

[Indy]

abortion should be completley legal under any circumstances.

obviously not 2 weeks before the baby is born or something, but you know what i mean.

[Eugene]

This is an interesting conversation because this is a male dominated forum (I think there were one or two girls here who were ultimately and undoubtedly driven away by male chauvanism), and we can't get the female perspective on things.

Regardless,

I personally do not believe in abortion. I think every conceived child should be given a chance, regardless of circumstance. I know if my girlfriend were ever to get pregnant, I'd want to keep the child: I need to take responsibility for my actions, and killing is not an option.

That being said, I am staunchly pro-choice.

Abortion should be legal because there are always extenuating circumstances, such as rape (including the horrifying cases of incest rape), and defective contraceptives (even condoms are only 99% likely to prevent pregnancy).

I think abortion is the wrong choice to make, but I still believe that everyone should be given the right to make their own choices.

And I believe abortion should be legal because the alternatives (if it was illegal) would be even more unacceptable. If an unwanted pregnancy occurs and there is no safe and legal way to get an abortion, the girl may, in extreme situations, try to abort her child be throwing herself off the staircase, or some other dangerous measure.

It's either a clean, sanitized, trained abortion, or in the back alley with a coat hanger.

My point is, if someone's going to get an abortion, they should at least get it so all risks are minimized.

And I get the sense that a lot of people think that women use abortion as the easy way out--"Oh, I didn't want to get pregnant, and I'm not ready for a child yet, so I'll just get it aborted".

It's not like that at all.

Abortion has tremendous psychological and physical risks that make it inherently more dangerous than a birth. It is a tremendous burden to know that you once got an abortion. Furthermore, if you do get an abortion, there's a chance you may never get pregnant again.

So it's not an easy decision to make, whether to get an abortion or not. And I think people understand that even though abortion from a legal standpoint, is a viable option, the consequences of making that choices may be worse than just having the child.

All the best,

Eugene