Terrorism -- Define It!

[GloveGuy]

In the paragraphs that I am about to write, I refer to America in the first-person, labeling it "we." This will prevent further misunderstanding. In this post, I am just letting out my frustration. I am open to criticism by any right-winger who disagrees.


I don't see how we can label some extremist groups as "terrorists" when in reality, we are too! It's the truth. Over 3,000 innocent people died in 9/11 and we label that as a terrorist act. Now in this "War on Iraq" it's been estimated that there have been over 7,000 civilian deaths due to war. It's outrageous. Tell me how this isn't terrorism, Mr. Bush.

There was a boy who lost his parents and two of his arms as a U.S. missile hit his home. While crying, he begged reporters to help find him his arms.

There were four U.S. bombs aimed at a restaurant that Saddam Hussein "might" have been in. What happend is, the bombs took out three homes, leaving fourteen people dead, including seven children.

The Pentagon will boast about how precise their guidance systems are now, but it doesn't do anything to Razek al-Kazem al-Khafaji who lost his wife, six children, and parents in one attack.

The military has 1,000-pound cluster bombs which can each deliver 200 to 300 "bomblets". The bomblets look like little toys to some children, and fail to explode upon impact 5-20 percent of the time. They just sit on the ground waiting for an innocent child to pick one up.

Ten women and children were killed by U.S. soldiers when their van failed to stop at a checkpoint. They thought they were heeding to the soldiers's order to evacuate toward the checkpoint.

I hate to compare the American military to a terrorist group. I keep in mind that they have witnessed certain things that will affect them pyschologically, leaving them paranoid, and killing any one who seems to be a threat and some people who aren't.

But it just disgusts me how our government labels this as a War that will help turn around Iraq as a country. On Nightline, there was this Iraqi teacher -- a woman -- who actually confessed to wishing that none of this ever happend. That Saddam were still their leader. While some may disagree, there's no denying the turmoil and chaos that we have brought to Iraq. In the end, they might end up a better country, but it doesn't make up for the thousands of people who died when they didn't deserve it. They were just trapped in this mayhem called a "War on Terror".

[Carlos Boozer]

Osama.Bin.Bird
Abdul Said
Al aheera jahu kajaff abdullah mcdollah third

[J@3]

I feel as though this sums up terrorists accurately.

[j.23]

gloveguy i totally agree with what you said.. george bush is nothing but a hypocrite..

------

on another note, i also hate michael phelphs.. can't believe my love, carly patterson, wants to "date" that chump. hope his muscles cramp so he drowns the next time he steps in the pool

[Tuomas]

my love, carly patterson

hah go ahead on a 135cm gymnastic that has more muscle than you have

[j.23]

my love, carly patterson

hah go ahead on a 135cm gymnastic that has more muscle than you have

ya, lol thats pretty sad.. she has a killer six-pack and she's only 16

[Riot]

In war civilians die, we all know it. It's not terrorism when we're fighting to FREE them. They just sucker punched us in the back to hurt us.

So it is different. We're here to help they were here to hurt. When you fly planes into buildings on purpose you know that's terrorism. When you bomb places to take out a insane, hateful dicator you know that's war.

There is a difference.

[GloveGuy]

I realize that, but in my opinion, it gives no justification for those innocent lives that were lost. In fact, it's just as bad as 9/11, if not worse due to the fact that more than double the people have died.

Regardless of our intentions, we're still hurting, and some Iraqis, at this point in time, would disagree with our intentions of helping or the way that we've gone about it.

I just don't see any justification for killing so many innocent civilians. Of course I know it's not terrorism, but the way I look at it is, if it were any other country, that's what it could be called.

[Matthew]

See this is just stupid. Look at saddam's regime, and how many of his own men he killed, on purpose, tortured, executed.. even his sons tortured athletes if they didnt win gold medals at the olympics... and then you say that 7000 people is twice as bad as september 11.. compare the two, and see the difference. And yes, I do feel sorry for the casualties. But where was all this questioning of war when Bill Clinton invaded sariajevo(spelling mistake there in the worst way) just before he was about to get impeached.

Sadaam was an evil dictator, one that can only be compared to the likes of Hitler.. and he is no longer in power. I have friends from iraq, and they moved here before the war started, and they all tell you the same thing: sadaam is hated in the worst possible way. But don't take my word, just watch their celebration of the removing of his statue and such. I can;t believe that you compare freeing a nation of fear and supression to terrorism. Just admit it, you are blinded by hate of George Bush to see anything rationaly..

[GloveGuy]

I don't give a fuck about whether it's on purpose or an "accident." People die and when they die they don't come back.

September 11th was an incident where over three thousand innocent people died. It's terrible and I look down on anyone behind it. But please tell me what justification there is to more than three times(My source was dated. By May 2004, the estimated Iraqi civilian deaths was between 9,187 and 11,046) that many innocent people dying. There should be none!

I'm not saying that this is terrorism, and I realize that someway, somehow there will be some good coming out of this war. I watch T.V. and I do see people celebrating; I see the bodies of Uday and Qusay Hussein. Obviously, the media doesn't want to show us disgusting images of maimed children at dinnertime.

And please don't tell me that the loved ones of these recently deceased are actually grateful that their family members are no longer with them so we might be safe from one man and his "weapons of mass destruction."

[Riot]

Sadaam has killed millions. Lives are lost, yes, but more lives are freed. When you invade a country it's impossible not to kill innocent civlians due to the firefights inside city walls. We are killing innocent people to free a country of many more.

Not only are we freeing those that are living now but we are opening the gates for generations to come. This is also a statement for the Terrorists. We caught Saddam, now it's time for Bin Laden.

Lives are lost. Lives are saved. Adds one more free country.

Marines are being killed too. There is a difference between 9/11 and the War on Iraq. If you can't see it them nobody can talk to you rationally. 9/11 was hate crime. War on Iraq is about saving generations.

[Matthew]

September 11th was an incident where over three thousand innocent people died. It's terrible and I look down on anyone behind it. But please tell me what justification there is to more than three times(My source was dated. By May 2004, the estimated Iraqi civilian deaths was between 9,187 and 11,046) that many innocent people dying. There should be none!

You're living in a dream world when you say "there should be none!". I wish no one died in wars as well, but its just a harsh reality. From Hiroshima, to the Vietnam war, to the American Civil war, innocent people always die in wars.

I'm not saying that this is terrorism

Hmm, but you also said this: "I don't see how we can label some extremist groups as "terrorists" when in reality, we are too!" and also this "I hate to compare the American military to a terrorist group. I keep in mind that they have witnessed certain things that will affect them pyschologically, leaving them paranoid, and killing any one who seems to be a threat and some people who aren't. " so you condradicted yourself, good work!

and I realize that someway, somehow there will be some good coming out of this war. I watch T.V. and I do see people celebrating; I see the bodies of Uday and Qusay Hussein. Obviously, the media doesn't want to show us disgusting images of maimed children at dinnertime.

Things are already better right now, even with all the turmoil there. Sadaam and his regime were killing hundreds of thousands of his own people. While 10,000 have died during this war, they have their own governement, a new consitution and alot of hope. Things will continue to improve, and thats the ultimate positive.

And please don't tell me that the loved ones of these recently deceased are actually grateful that their family members are no longer with them so we might be safe from one man and his "weapons of mass destruction."

Did I actually say that? But, on the whole, Iraqi's are much happier that Sadaam is gone. Don't you try to tell me that families of the deceased that sadaam killed arent happy he's gone. It goes both ways.

[Riot]

Plus, I think familes like it better if their family members get killed in cross fire, or a bomb in a war for hope and war to free them than Saddam killing them.

[GloveGuy]

How about you tell that to the thousands of people who lost their loved ones. Look at it from their side. Now had their been 100, 200, even 1,000 innocent people dead, then there is some slight justification in my mind. But c'mon, 11,000! 11,000 people dead! I see zero justification for that.

Now I'll admit it, I am a bit more left-wing than the average person and I do hate George W. Bush, and I hate his administration even more. I'm trying to look at all the good that has come out of this. I really am! But was this all really necessary? Did the Iraqi people really have to go through all this turmoil and chaos to become a more established country? It wasn't necessary and it wasn't right. And I see no justification for everything that's happend so far.

[Old School Fool]

Terrorism - When Bad guys cause a national tragedy (ex. 9/11)

I hope that was good enough I'm not good with Politics.

[Riot]

And I see no justification for everything that's happend so far.

How would you like it living in Iraq under Saddam? How would you like it not living under a free country? Or worrying that your sister might get raped or that your dad might not come home. Yes, the war has killed many but life before the war was no cake walk either.

[GloveGuy]

How would you like it if your entire family was wiped out because they just happend to live near a restaurant that was bombed because Saddam Hussein might have been in there.

I understand that life for some was rough before the U.S. came in, but what model of a country are we trying to be if we have to kill 11,000 people to rectify another?

[Riot]

11,000 people have been killed in the war. That doesn't mean WE killed them. There are two sides in a war. That doesn't mean we were the only ones killing them.

Living your life in fear is sometimes worse than not living at all. Having no hope can crush you. They have hope now. They can finally start dreaming about making something out of their lives. No more Saddam to bring them down. Lives lost or not.

If I knew we would kill this many innocent people before the war, and it was up to me to call the war on or off. I would still do it. Because it's worth it. 11,000 indivuals or a free country for generations, decades. If we didn't do anything I promise you more than 11,000 people have would died because of Saddam THIS YEAR alone. So, yes we have killed people. But if we didn't do anything more people would have died.

[Matthew]

Look at it from their side. Now had their been 100, 200, even 1,000 innocent people dead, then there is some slight justification in my mind. But c'mon, 11,000! 11,000 people dead! I see zero justification for that.

The majority of Iraqi's are very happy sadaam is out of power. You are going on one statement one woman made.. And re read what I said earlier and you chose to ignore: "You're living in a dream world when you say "there should be none!". I wish no one died in wars as well, but its just a harsh reality. From Hiroshima, to the Vietnam war, to the American Civil war, innocent people always die in wars. "

Now I'll admit it, I am a bit more left-wing than the average person and I do hate George W. Bush, and I hate his administration even more.

Now we are getting to the reason why you are blinded. You are just so hatefull of George Bush that if he was to send you a check of $1000 you would complain. Isn't that what he did virtually anyway, with the tax cuts? hmmm

Did the Iraqi people really have to go through all this turmoil and chaos to become a more established country?

Was freeing the slaves in the american civil war wrong as well? I'm sure the civillian death count was higher then this war in iraq..

It wasn't necessary and it wasn't right

If Bill Clinton grew a spine and did what George Bush did, I guarantee you that you wouldn't be posing such questions. Freeing Iraq from supression isnt "right"?

I understand that life for some was rough before the U.S. came in, but what model of a country are we trying to be if we have to kill 11,000 people to rectify another?

For some? SOME?? He killed hundreds of THOUSANDS and you call that some? Then when 11 000 people die you react like the world is falling apart. You cant see a contradiction there?

[GloveGuy]

I act like the world is falling apart because it's us who's doing it. I hated Saddam and yes, I did think he should have been taken out of power and I commend the US military for doing so.

But I would love to see George W. Bush, our commander in chief,'s explaination on why 11,000 innocentpeople had to die. I don't think that number's really been instilled into your head yet.

If Saddam had killed 10,000 or 1 million, I'd still label him as an evil dictator because they're just awful numbers that serve no justification.

Freeing Iraq from supression isnt "right"?

I meant that killing 10,000 people along the way of freeing Iraq isn't right, in my mind. It wasn't right and it could've been prevented.

You are just so hatefull of George Bush that if he was to send you a check of $1000 you would complain. Isn't that what he did virtually anyway, with the tax cuts? hmmm

I don't think you realize that it was the top 5 percent richest people who collected over 50% of that tax cut.

[Riot]

it could of been prevented? By not going to war at all? Shit happens in war you can't predict or prevent. I'm sure we are trying as hard as we can. Life is on the line, no fucking around.

[Matthew]

I act like the world is falling apart because it's us who's doing it. I hated Saddam and yes, I did think he should have been taken out of power and I commend the US military for doing so.

You lying fuck. You compared the US military to terrorists before and now you are commending them? Talk about a backflip.

I don't think that number's really been instilled into your head yet

It's alot of people, I know.But compared to other wars, its an incredibly low number of deaths. considering the dirty tactics the opposition is using.

If Saddam had killed 10,000 or 1 million, I'd still label him as an evil dictator because they're just awful numbers that serve no justification.

So you agree that he had to go, but you are complaining becuase 11 000 people died? What was the coalition supposed to do? Just ring him up and say "Please Sadaam, leave Iraq". You live in such a fantasy world.

I meant that killing 10,000 people along the way of freeing Iraq isn't right, in my mind. It wasn't right and it could've been prevented.

How? By getting special bullets and missiles that only kill terrorists and the enemy and dont injure innocent civilians?

I don't think you realize that it was the top 5 percent richest people who collected over 50% of that tax cut.

I don't live in america, so I consulted one before making a statement. I learned that the top 20% earners in america pay 80% of all taxes, so of course if theres a tax break, seeing they are the ones who pay the bulk of it, they will be the ones who recieve the most cuts.

[GloveGuy]

You lying fuck. You compared the US military to terrorists before and now you are commending them? Talk about a backflip.

I'm still gonna compare some of their actions to terrorists. Why can't I commend the few who found Saddam and scold the one's who killed the innocent people. How is this backflipping.

So you agree that he had to go, but you are complaining becuase 11 000 people died? What was the coalition supposed to do? Just ring him up and say "Please Sadaam, leave Iraq". You live in such a fantasy world.

He was found in the middle of nowhere in a hole! How was it necessary to kill 11,000 people in urban areas so we can find a man who was hiding in a hole. Please tell me.

How? By getting special bullets and missiles that only kill terrorists and the enemy and dont injure innocent civilians?

If you read my very first post, you would see that the military lets out bomblets in urban areas which fail to explode on impact 5-20% of the time. Often times, a child would find one, mistaking it for a toy, and...I don't even want to go on for the rest.

Maybe if we actually used missiles which land where we want them to and bomblets that explode on impact 100% of the time.

I don't live in america, so I consulted one before making a statement. I learned that the top 20% earners in america pay 80% of all taxes, so of course if theres a tax break, seeing they are the ones who pay the bulk of it, they will be the ones who recieve the most cuts.

The tax cut excluded the 12 million children whose parents make between $10,000 to $26,000 a year. Those who needed the money most got the shaft.

[benji]

The difference is that we do not deliberately target civilians while the enemy does. The enemy does not distinguish between civilians and a military, we often to our detriment do, because we are a civilized people, we are not the barbarians.

We have erred in calling this a "War on Terror" or "War on Terrorism" for the proper labeling of this war is World War IV. (I'd be happy to personally explain it to you all, but I have some serious RL things going on so I can't devote much time to the forum for a few days...instead I direct you to http://www.commentarymagazine.com/podhoretz.htm which while I may not agree 100% with (especially his neocon whinings) he does a fine job laying it out in humanspeak)

Think of the luck we have had thus far in this war. World War II saw tens of millions of civilians killed, World War III (or as the Soviets called it the "Cold War") saw a hundred million dead in Communist states alone. In this war the civilian dead has not yet gone beyond 50,000 (using highest (and to be honest, simply crazy anti-war groups) estimates) and we've already been engaged in a hot war for three years. This war can only get bloodier from here on out, if North Korea senses weakness we could see 30 million dead in the Korea or elsewhere in the Pacific Rim, if Iran acquires nuclear material (as Senator Kerry wants to provide) we could see millions dead in Israel, Iraq, Europe and the United States, if Syria can deploy Iraqi WMD or acquire nuclear arms we could see the same. Recently 80,000 lives were threatened in Jordan by a chemical attack until the plot was thwarted. If we give up because we have seen 7,000 Iraqi's or 3,000 Afghanis accidently killed in a warzone, because we have seen 3,000 Americans killed before our very own eyes, then we will have failed and we will reap what we sow.

[Matthew]

I'm still gonna compare some of their actions to terrorists. Why can't I commend the few who found Saddam and scold the one's who killed the innocent people. How is this backflipping.

Becuase you commended the entire Military, not just the few who found him. This after you compared the military to terrorists.. so you go from critising to commending, and you can't see a backflip?

He was found in the middle of nowhere in a hole! How was it necessary to kill 11,000 people in urban areas so we can find a man who was hiding in a hole. Please tell me.

It's not like they were looking for a queen ant. He was found almost by accident, and it was neccesary to wipe out his whole regime, becuase even though sadaam was the catalyst, if they were to just take out sadaam and leave the rest, iraq still would be under control of his sons or cousins or whoever is in his regime, which was evil to the bone. Simple. And now the challange is to take out all the terrorists and violent people who are disrupting peace in iraq, so the country can continue to develop. Thats why the fighting is still going on.

Maybe if we actually used missiles which land where we want them to and bomblets that explode on impact 100% of the time.

Wow, so thats your answer to everything? "get bombs that work 100% of the time" Good logic!

The tax cut excluded the 12 million children whose parents make between $10,000 to $26,000 a year. Those who needed the money most got the shaft.

You can't get tax cuts without playing tax in the first place...