Lebanon/Israel

Dro, Let me ask you this: What would you do? You have bombs going off in your country, Soldiers kidnapped and held to ransom (negotiations my arse) and you don't call that justification for a war? Seriously, use some logic.

I hate war as much as anyone, but there comes a time when you have to fight. You use the same double standard that you think hype uses. You say that Hezbolah is simply defending itself. Heres where the difference is: Hezbollah is targeting civillians. They hide in civillian buildings. They want the amount of civilian casualities to go up becuase the jews will be blamed for it, and Hezbollah celebrate the death of civillians. When a group of people does that, sorry, but they will not get sympathy from me, and I lose respect for anyone who attempts to justify that way of thinking.

Very good post, and can a mod add a poll, to see who people think is right? Also Israel has ended the ceasefire early.

Dro, Let me ask you this: What would you do? You have bombs going off in your country, Soldiers kidnapped and held to ransom (negotiations my arse) and you don't call that justification for a war? Seriously, use some logic.

I think absolutely the same way!

Heres where the difference is: Hezbollah is targeting civillians. They hide in civillian buildings. They want the amount of civilian casualities to go up becuase the jews will be blamed for it, and Hezbollah celebrate the death of civillians.

Exactly this is what I meant in my last posts. They use the people's sympathy that they get when people hear about civilian casualties to win that war mentally and do whatever they like. And then they hope to get people to think that what they did/do is justified.

Matthew, I'll have to repeat your exquisite phrasing:

Just come out and admit you're anti jewish with no real reason.

This is my biggest problem with Israel, they are starting this war over the kidnap of two soldiers. And they have killed over 600 people. Why, are two Israelis worth more than 600+ Lebonese? Why, is one drop of Israeli blood worth more than Lebanese blood? And honestly, it is to the point where Im not so sure that you can consider Hizbullah a terrorist group like Al- Qaeda. THese guys are an army, they are a proffesional army. And it is very cowardly that the only way Israel is really attacking them is by air, in which it is much more likely that you will kill civilians then soldiers.

Wow, this thing has gotten out of hand. Seriously, somebody should start peace negotiations.

There have already been several attempts to do so, but the USA have vetoed each call for a ceasefire when every other country has called for an immediate ceasefire.

Jews...a lot of them were killed during worldwar 2
but now they killed a lot...

Those who have been opressed are more likely to opress.

And Israel has now promised 48 hours of ceasefire. Now the civilians have enough time to leave. After that Israel is going to start a veritable offense against Lebanon, and in two weeks they should be done.

Oh yes, of course, three fourths the population is gonna be able to leave in 48 hours when all the roads are blocked off, the airport has been bombed, and the sea has been blocked

Dro, Let me ask you this: What would you do? You have bombs going off in your country, Soldiers kidnapped and held to ransom (negotiations my arse) and you don't call that justification for a war? Seriously, use some logic.

Matthew, let me ask you this: Israel has held countless Palestinians, Lebonese, and other Arabs in jail for no apparent reason. Israel has blocked pregnant mothers from getting to the hospital when they are in labor, Isreal is beating up little kids who are simply playing in the streets with toy guns. In other words Israel is starting another Holocaust. In the month of June, 600 Palestinian civilians died in the whole month, and only one Israeli soldier died. And you dont call the last-resort kidnapping of two soldiers, after numerous peaceful pleas, for the release of a few Lebonese civilians, who have been wrongly held in jail, justified? Seriously, use some logic.

Israel has held countless Palestinians, Lebonese, and other Arabs in jail for no apparent reason. Israel has blocked pregnant mothers from getting to the hospital when they are in labor, Isreal is beating up little kids who are simply playing in the streets with toy guns. In other words Israel is starting another Holocaust.

Do you know what the holocaust is? Because what you described sure as hell isn't it.

That is complete waste what you write. AGAIN, again you and Dro don't refer to the fact that the terrorists hide between civilians. You let it look as if Israel kills helpless people for nothing and target at them. Let the Lebanese government handle it that innocent people don't get caught in these bomb attacks.

And Dream, you don't exactly answer to Matthew's questions, you just start telling the same old crap that you have been telling at the beginning of this thread over and over again. So what in the world should Israel do, if it was up to you, Dro and Dream? And what do you wanna say to the for months lasting barrage of the town Sderot in Israel which is located nearby the Gaza Strip?

Do you know what the holocaust is? Because what you described sure as hell isn't it.

I just thought the same.

Isreal is beating up little kids who are simply playing in the streets with toy guns

WTF? Who told you this? Where and when was that?

Do you know what the holocaust is? Because what you described sure as hell isn't it.

Yes, I know what the holocaust is, and though it isnt on the same level, the Israelis are mercilessly killing many of the Palestinians and taking their homeland, and forcing them out.

Here are some artiocles, many are from before, but still prove a point:

http://voanews.com/english/2006-07-31-voa9.cfm

http://www.mediamonitors.net/francis7.htmlv

http://www.robincmiller.com/pales6.htm

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/0 ... 289352.php

http://elizabethwong.wordpress.com/2006 ... ar-crimes/

Bush, Rice and Israel's Hack Legions
The Triumph of Crackpot Realism
By ALEXANDER COCKBURN

The frayed threads anchoring the American government to reality have finally snapped, just at the moment radiologists are reporting that Americans are getting too fat to be x-rayed or shoved into any existing MRI tube.

The gamma rays can't get through the blubber, same way actual conditions in the outside world bounces off the impenetrable dome of imbecility sheltering America's political leadership.

Twenty-three years after one of America's stupidest Presidents announced Star Wars, Reagan's dream has come true. Behind ramparts guarded by a coalition of liars extending from Rupert Murdoch to the New York Times, from Bill O'Reilly to PBS, America is totally shielded from truth.

Here we have a Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, who gazes at the rubble of Lebanon, 300,000 refugees being strafed with Israel's cluster bombs, and squeaks happily that we are "witnessing the birth pangs of a new Middle East."

Here we have a president, G. Bush, who urges Vladimir Putin to commence in Russia the same "institutional change" that is making Iraq a beacon of freedom and free expression. Not long after Bush extended this ludicrous invitation the UN relayed from Iraq's Ministry of Health Iraq's real casualty rate, which was running at least 100 a day, now probably twice that number.

Iraq's morgues reported receipts of 3,149 dead bodies in June; over 14,000 since the beginning of the year. Senior Iraqis in the government confide that break-up of Iraq into Sunni, Shia and Kurdish enclaves, each protected by its own militias, is now inevitable. Iraq as a viable country has been utterly destroyed, with even vaster carnage coming up over the horizon, and here's the numbskull President touting it as an advertisement for American nation-building at its best, and inviting its prime minister to Washington to proclaim Iraq's approaching renaissance, all in sync with the U.S. 2006 election campaigns.

Here we have a Congress which reacts with outrage when America's picked man in Iraq, Prime Minister al-Maliki, states the obvious, which is that Israel's attack is "dangerous" and that the world community is not doing enough to curb Israel's destruction of Lebanon.

House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi rushes out a statement "Unless Mr. Maliki disavows his critical comments of Israel and condemns terrorism, it is inappropriate to honor him with a joint meeting of Congress," Another twenty Democrats said al-Maliki shouldn't be allowed to set foot in the place.

Actually, I'm not so sure Congress is impervious to reality, particularly if reality spells out as a threat of withdrawal of support from the Israel lobby in the next electoral cycle. The place is about 98 percent bought and paid for by the Lobby. How these transactions spell out on the ground was well described by Tom Hayden the other day (www.counterpunch.org/Hayden07202006.htm) as he explained why he felt it necessary for his political future in Los Angeles to stand, Jane Fonda at his side, next to Israelis gunners shelling Beirut back in 1982.

What we are now witnessing is the simultaneous collapse of two countries-Iraq and Lebanon-as sponsored or encouraged by America's ruling bipartisan coalition and its ideological counselors-ranging from Christian nutballs like Falwell to secular nutballs like Hitchens. Wesley Clarke is now saying that back in late 2001 he visited the Pentagon and was told the planned hit list included Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan as part of a five-year campaign plan. Two down, five to go.

The attack on Lebanon was planned in detail at least a year ago. Israel picked the supposed provocation of the Hezbollah capture of two Israeli soldiers on July 25, but almost any excuse would have sufficed. In 1982 Israel lied flatly, and said it was responding to shells lobbed over the border, even though there'd been none for over a year.

With Bush and Rice and the policy-makers and intellectual courtiers surrounding them, crackpot realism is the prevailing mode.

"Crackpot realism" was the concept defined by the great Texan sociologist, C. Wright Mills in 1958, when he published The Causes of World War Three, also the year that Dwight Eisenhower sent the Marines into Lebanon to bolster local US factotum, Lebanese President Camille Chamoun.

"In crackpot realism," Mills wrote, " a high-flying moral rhetoric is joined with an opportunist crawling among a great scatter of unfocused fears and demands. .. The expectation of war solves many problems of the crackpot realists; ... instead of the unknown fear, the anxiety without end, some men of the higher circles prefer the simplification of known catastrophe....They know of no solutions to the paradoxes of the Middle East and Europe, the Far East and Africa except the landing of Marines. ... they prefer the bright, clear problems of war-as they used to be. For they still believe that 'winning' means something, although they never tell us what..."

The Israeli elites, so habituated to selling intransigeance to their ever- receptive opposite numbers in Washington, are now crackpot realists themselves to the very core. Their generals bellow about dumping ten rockets on south Beirut for every one landing in Israel and are astounded when people start talking about the fact that exacting reprisals on a civilian population -- which is what the onslaught has been all about -- is a war crime.

Israel is systematically trying to destroy Lebanon as a functioning social and economic entity, cleanse the south and reoccupy up to the Litani River The head of Lebanon's Industrial Association, Charles Arbid, told Agence France Presse on July 24 that Israel's strategy is to destroy the whole chain of manufacturing, from production to distribution. Bridges, airports, roads, trucks, ports have been methodically attacked.

Israel's hack legions here recycle the usual mad nonsense about extirpating the terrorist seed, just as they did in 1982, when Henry Kissinger, the crackpot realist supremo, announced after that onslaught that he could see "a fresh beginning" emerging from under the rubble. True in a way. What sprouted from under the rubble was Hezbollah. Only crackpot realists think they can suppress that inevitable cycle.

Note: a version of this column originally ran in The Nation, which went to press last Thursday. (www.counterpunch.org)

http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGMDE150612006

I could go on and on and on...

That is complete waste what you write. AGAIN, again you and Dro don't refer to the fact that the terrorists hide between civilians. You let it look as if Israel kills helpless people for nothing and target at them. Let the Lebanese government handle it that innocent people don't get caught in these bomb attacks.

And Dream, you don't exactly answer to Matthew's questions, you just start telling the same old crap that you have been telling at the beginning of this thread over and over again. So what in the world should Israel do, if it was up to you, Dro and Dream? And what do you wanna say to the for months lasting barrage of the town Sderot in Israel which is located nearby the Gaza Strip?

Geez! So you're saying that just because Hezbollah is hiding between civilians it's right for Israel to kill those civilians?
They're sure demonstrating they're not as smart and intelligent as other Jews are. Israel should just stop playing with guns as if they're toys, they've been dong that for 40+ years. Stop the war, sit on a chair, and treat with your enemy using your intelligence. No one understands that. Israel is completely right wanting to attack Hezbollah, but if you see that you're not killing Hezbollah members, instead innocent Lebanese people, then stop firing and launching bombs and try to negotiate. It isn't that hard to understand, people: No one is right when war is happening.

Dream, you seriously "are the product of the media's propaganda". They purposely do that in order to let you think repellently about Israel. I see that you have nothing to do than to post articles. And again you ignorantly don't relate to what Matthew said, or what I did, and put up some shit of your own.

So you're saying that just because Hezbollah is hiding between civilians it's right for Israel to kill those civilians?

Again, they do not target at them. When people get killed, they commiserate with the killed. I also feel sorry for the killed. But it is at it is, the Hezbollah has to be blamed for it, because they are the ones who are hiding, and they NEED to be eliminated. They act cowardly, and if they want to fight then they shall not hide. What about the Lebanese government? Do they have any interest to prevent civilians from getting killed? Obviously they do not care.

Stop the war, sit on a chair, and treat with your enemy using your intelligence.

try to negotiate

But that is not possible. There have been several attempts to negotiate, but they will never stop attacking Israel. Israel could use intelligence to end all that, but the Hezbollah is not going for it. Don't you understand? It's like they just started that war without any prior actions just because they are pissed off at them. Of course it is not like that. They will attack Israel until the moment that they won't exist anymore. Do you think Israel will just acquiesce all that and let their country be destroyed by organizations that are just interested in their own aims?

No one is right when war is happening.

Right is who wins the war, and Israel will do so.

you can see no wrong in your country.

Apparently it is not my country, and I have to object to a lot of issues in this country that I haven't been used to while living in Europe. I actually hate this country. But by this conflict, in which Israel obviously is right, Israel get's my sympathy.

Apparently it is not my country, and I have to object to a lot of issues in this country that I haven't been used to while living in Europe. I actually hate this country. But by this conflict, in which Israel obviously is right, Israel get's my sympathy.

Yeah, but your sig says, "I support Israel in "all" its actions", and you have an israeli flag as your sig, sure you hate it?

Dream, you seriously "are the product of the media's propaganda". They purposely do that in order to let you think repellently about Israel.

Dude almost all the media is pro-Israel in America... and also, just by posting a few articles doesnt make me product of the media propoganda. if anything it makes me open-minded enought to not just read fox, cnn, etc. which are all pro-Israel...

But that is not possible. There have been several attempts to negotiate, but they will never stop attacking Israel. Israel could use intelligence to end all that, but the Hezbollah is not going for it. Don't you understand? It's like they just started that war without any prior actions just because they are pissed off at them. Of course it is not like that. They will attack Israel until the moment that they won't exist anymore. Do you think Israel will just acquiesce all that and let their country be destroyed by organizations that are just interested in their own aims?

prove it to me, show me one time that the Israelis tryed to solve this peacefully

I have nothing agaisnt jewish people, only against the israeli government

Apparently it is not my country, and I have to object to a lot of issues in this country that I haven't been used to while living in Europe. I actually hate this country. But by this conflict, in which Israel obviously is right, Israel get's my sympathy.

Yeah, but your sig says, "I support Israel in "all" its actions", and you have an israeli flag as your sig, sure you hate it?

Let's say I don't like it. By "all its actions" I meant that I support its political acts regarding that conflict. In order to divulge that, I decided to set an Israeli flag as avatar.

Dude almost all the media is pro-Israel in America... and also, just by posting a few articles doesnt make me product of the media propoganda. if anything it makes me open-minded enought to not just read fox, cnn, etc. which are all pro-Israel...

Maybe it is as you say. But I don't live in the U.S., and in Dutch and German news and newspapers I constantly hear and see anti-Israeli news, comments and information. They even won't say any word about the wounded Israeli citizens, as 2 days ago when I watched Dutch news. And in Dutch newspapers they always publish some "Lebanese tragedies". German newspapers (Sueddeutsche Zeitung) mainly feature news on Lebanese casualties, and all the comments there tend against Israel.

I have nothing agaisnt jewish people, only against the israeli government

I also don't discriminate Arabs. But my sympathy is clearly in Israel's favour. They can't watch and do nothing. I pity the death of innocent civilians though, and hope that this will have an legitimate end (yes, you know what I mean). And I also hope that there will be no more significant numbers of civilian casualties.

Let me set this straight. Hezbollah started this by kidnapping two soldats. And not only this. They constantly have been firing missiles to a city called Sderot. Israel had enough of it and they started firing back.

Huh? You're obviously not reading what me and Dream have been writing. Israel has 3 Lebanese prisoners and THOUSANDS of innocent Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners. The ONLY reason Hezbollah kidnapped the two soldiers was for an exchange. Do you support the killing of over 500 civilians, rather than a prisoner-swap?

If Israel honestly, truly was trying to kill the least amount of civilians they could, they would send in ground troops. Instead, they use bombs that knock down buildings. Israel says that they're very sad, blah blah blah, but it's obvious they don't give a damn when they kill civilians!

You say Hezbollah targets civilians...do you realize how innacurate the rockets Hezbollah uses are? Yesterday, Hezbollah launched over 120 rockets and not one Israeli was killed. But, of course, Hezbollah is targeting the civilians...right.

I don't think I am your friend. And exactly you "are the product of the media's propaganda", because I haven't seen any source that tells something different than you tell.

Do you know how Pro-Israeli the American Media is? You're making no sense.

No, I am not. Beirut is not the only target of the Israeli army.

But, if Hezbollah is not firing out of Beirut, but civilians in Beirut are dying, that makes your whole point moot.

And Israel has now promised 48 hours of ceasefire. Now the civilians have enough time to leave.

This is the most rediculous comment I've heard yet. Dream already commented on this...how the hell are the Lebanese people supposed to get out without roads, freeways, bridges, and airports? Not to mention, the people that are still in Lebanon are people who have nowhere to go. The casualties are not going to stop.

Dro, Let me ask you this: What would you do? You have bombs going off in your country, Soldiers kidnapped and held to ransom (negotiations my arse) and you don't call that justification for a war? Seriously, use some logic.

No, I don't. Honestly, if I was running a country and my soldiers were kidnapped, and I was left with two choices; Soldier exchange, or war that could eventually kill thousands of people, including some of my own, I would choose the prior. That's my logic.

Here's what you guys don't understand; this war is not about two soldiers. FAR from it. The soldiers were just a lame ass excuse Israel has been waiting for to go into Lebanon. Is it any surprise that since the war started, Iran is in the news more and more, being targeted for funding Hezbollah? No...Israel and US's plan goes further than Lebanon and Hezbollah.

And I want to give a biiiig thank you to Matthew and 8-Hype for continuing to pull out the race card! Not once have I called either of you Anti-Arab or Anti-Muslim, but if someone disagrees with Israel, they're an Anti-Semite all of a sudden.

Israel has 3 Lebanese prisoners and THOUSANDS of innocent Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners

i think you mean they have 3 lebonese soldiers, and THOUSANDS of innocent Palestinian and Lebanese prisoners

Here's what you guys don't understand; this war is not about two soldiers. FAR from it. The soldiers were just a lame ass excuse Israel has been waiting for to go into Lebanon. Is it any surprise that since the war started, Iran is in the news more and more, being targeted for funding Hezbollah? No...Israel and US's plan goes further than Lebanon and Hezbollah.

ditto, they have been waiting for years for an excuse to invade llebanon and beyond

Why aren't the other countries doing anything about this? I thought Canada would send in some peace troops or something, but Harper is like Bush's dummy now. I think other Arab countries should help Lebanon out with the civilians being killed.

Just come out and admit you're anti jewish with no real reason.

:applaud:

Matthew, I'll have to repeat your exquisite phrasing:

Just come out and admit you're anti jewish with no real reason.

I think absolutely the same way!

I just thought the same.

Enough of the ass-kissing and pointless put-downs. You're making yourself look like a jackass.

This is really fucked up. War's are breaking out all over the place, makes me think is WWIII already begun or is it about to begin?

If your Muslim, Jew, RC, Buddhist, Hindu or whatever I don't think its right to say someone's right for killing someone or taking people hostage. Israel and Hizbollah both fucked up here, Israel went a bit over the top with their bombings but fuck worse shit has happened. Focus on Korea, that's where the real danger lies.

I think other Arab countries should help Lebanon out with the civilians being killed.

I agree, I wish other Arab countries would help out. However, most Arab governments are Sunni Muslim, and they don't necessarily agree with everything the Shiite Hezbollah does.

A few things to add:

1. The official count of Israelis dead is 33 soldiers, 18 civilians (Source: CNN). So you guys saying that Hezbollah is targetting only civilians...DEAD WRONG. What does that mean? Only 45% of Israeli deaths have been civilian. I'd be willing to bet that the Lebanese civilian death percentages are MUCH higher, though I don't have the official numbers.

2. Israel didn't hold up to their own 48-hour ceasefire.

I also don't discriminate Arabs

From Page 1:

I tell you: If there had been more Arabs over the world than people of other religions, all the other countries wouldn't have existed anymore. They would sign a peace agreement that would stop them attacking Israel, but only for 60 years. After that time, or even before, they would get at Israel with much more power. Fact is, they have to be eliminated so that this agreement doesn't have to be established. And besides: There have been such agreements, and every single time they just wouldn't maintain it!

Sure about that big boy

I agree, I wish other Arab countries would help out. However, most Arab governments are Sunni Muslim, and they don't necessarily agree with everything the Shiite Hezbollah does.

Not Necessarily true, King Abdullah, the lapdog of Isreal and the USA, of Jordan said that this is an unnecessary massacre of lives. If anything good is to come out of this, it is that the Sunni and Shiite will settle their differences and realize that they are both Muslim, beleive in one god, and beleive that Muhammad (S) was the last prophet...

Israel didn't hold up to their own 48-hour ceasefire.

so much for any hope of moral fiber from the Israeli government...

1. The official count of Israelis dead is 33 soldiers, 18 civilians (Source: CNN). So you guys saying that Hezbollah is targetting only civilians...DEAD WRONG. What does that mean? Only 45% of Israeli deaths have been civilian. I'd be willing to bet that the Lebanese civilian death percentages are MUCH higher, though I don't have the official numbers.

again, is one drop of Israeli blood worth more than a drop of Lebanese blood, pride issues

Ugh...where did I get 45% from? It's actually 35% Israeli deaths have been civilian.

Enough of the ass-kissing and pointless put-downs. You're making yourself look like a jackass.

Enough of the annoying remarks and pointless attacks. You're making yourself look like a squabbler.

Annoying remarks and pointless attacks?? Don't you understand that nobody can't stand you here dude? YOU are annoying, everybody's pointing that to you but you seem not to understand. Calm down and give some respect to a member like cyanide. That's all I have to say.

[J@3]

Keep on topic guys, thanks.

-Deleted that post, I know you wanna respond but this thing will just drag on if you do.

Last edited by J@3 on Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I hope this war is over soon, because it results in too many tiffs.