The State of the Community

I agree with a lot of things there. A couple of years back I had talked to a lot of guys with msn and I knew something about them and that gave more meaning to the posting. And the other guys that I didn't talk to had already become pretty familiar so I knew something about where they were coming from.

Great post Cameron, regardless of whether I agree with it all it was still good

That said, I'm not really sure what can be done to fix it. I don't want to infuse an elitist attitude, of something where the closer members only respond to each other's posts... but that said, if we just... ignored the spammers and lame posters entirely, it would take a lot more to get recognized as part of the community. I know that as a slow poster, a ton of members have no clue who I am, and I have no clue who they are. On the other hand, the members who know me, know me well, and I think appreciate my posts.

The only problem I see with this is that the spammers will start to band together. Like saying "if we just ignore the spammers" works in theory, but in reality they are the majority. When I first came back to the NLSC, I noticed alot of guys I wouldn't exactly consider good posters were all friends with each other and basically ran the forums. I was posting maybe once per week if that because of this, but when I started getting back into it again our little group kinda took control.

Your point about being in a group is completely valid, but to expand a bit more if I go on MSN, the only guys I talk to regularly (i.e basically every day) are Andrew, Jowe and Matthew... others on my list like Jackal, Nick, Cameron, Yohance, Andreas etc I don't really talk to as often, but I still recognise them as good individual posters and if they were having problems I would be more inclined to side with them, not because I'm friends with them or whatever but because they're the guys we want to keep around.

Example: If CK was in a flame war with Noob Spammer #1... we'll call him Frank, if CK was in a flame war with Frank for any reason I'd be more likely to side with CK... now, we're not exactly friends. Every milestone thread he makes he says he hates me but he's still a good poster, and regardless of whether I get along with someone I'd still rather have him around than someone I'm neutral about but offers nothing. Same goes for alot of other guys.

I don't think we'll ever get the small town thing back, but if people with actual personalities would let that show more in their posts we could get something alot similar. No one wants to read 15 replies that are all virtually identical, I seriously can't tell the difference between some posters.

Not sure if this was mentioned but mods could just decrease a persons post count by 1 for every bit of spam encountered. No announcement necessary.

On another note.

I'm guilty of adding Jae to my MSN but never saying a word to him. I think I had a question to ask him about the community but I never got around to it because he logs on when I'm asleep or I see him on the forums. Oh well. The only guy I really spoke to was Sit and Jugs (every once on a blue moon). I hate using MSN for a very petty reason, the poup when someone logs on. Thats probably why I barely do nowadays. It disrupts me when I'm writing papers or reading something. What can I say, I'm not really an MSN guy.

Anyways, I'll repeat that the spamming doesnt bother me as much anymore as much as the whining about spamming. Because the bigger head of the community does it, the newer members fall in line and its kind of become the new trend.

I don't think we'll ever get the small town thing back, but if people with actual personalities would let that show more in their posts we could get something alot similar. No one wants to read 15 replies that are all virtually identical, I seriously can't tell the difference between some posters.

This is kind of the summarized version of what I was trying to say. When I was talking about the group thing, I didn't mean it so much for siding in fights and stuff, just more the knowing each other thing.

The character of a community, I think, is really a sum of the characters of the individuals. Since the only way we can see a person's character is in the way they post (or through talking in IM's, Pm's, etc), people should try and be more personable. That I think would exponentially contribute toward the whole community feel.

I just saw this topic, and I agree with Tuomas's first post on page 1.

I don't think it's one big thing, it's just a lot of little things including the obvious dropoff from Live 2000 to 2001, the emphasis on console gaming, 2k series giving an alternative to Live (remember the days when there was no 2k?), as well as people getting older. I was 12 or 13 when I first posted in the black & blue forums and I liked fixing up the game to make it more realistic. THat was what brought me to the NLSC. Now I'm creeping up on *gasp* the big 20, and I don't have as much free time anymore. No time for patches, or for playing Live for that matter. Things were great in middle school when I had nothing to do but play Live.
I think the recent influx of spammers has to do with the fact that almost every household in the US is connected to broadband internet and can access the NLSC at any time... 5 years ago, most had 56k dialup, or no internet at all. So I think it's just the natural fact that kids nowadays don't have anything better to do than live on the internet, when they could be studying, or reading a book, or playing outside or something.

oh and one more thing: EA has gotten a little better making faces & courts, so that patchers have less work on their hands. I mean, Live 2005's jerseys were perfect, and they took a step back this year, but the jerseys, courts, and faces are near-perfect. I've noticed that many people post their "new patches" of jerseys & faces when EA's done a pretty good job as it is so you can't really tell what they've changed. Back in the day, there were plenty of logos missing from shorts & courts that needed to be added. But now, I think there should be an emphasis on making NEW courts & jerseys & faces as opposed to re-doing the ones already done.

@ Cameron. I don't think there's really a 'group' like you think. I don't really talk to anyone on MSN anymore these days. Except Jowe (i don't even talk to him as much as i used to. Used to be every day, heh). Or if i think of reply to someone's post, and that person happens to be online, i'll message him.

I can see how there seems like a group, but it seems to me in all honesty that it's just the non-moronic people posting and appriciating eachother's posts. Almost like an unwritten rule kind of thing.

Or if there is a group. I'm not in it.

I think Jae and Cameron have hit the nail on the head. This forum has now been in place almost as long as the original and we've got significantly more posts and members than the old board. A larger forum population invites a larger number of spammers and users who aren't necessarily looking for good discussion. And then of course there's the changing attitudes and approach to message boards which does tie in to the small town/big city analogy. I think the whole "group" aspect plays into that as well.

I still don't believe hidden post counts would accomplish all that much. It seems such a small cure for what would appear to be an ongoing problem (albeit a problem that seems to affect other communities as well) and as I've said before, if people want to spam they're going to spam. If they don't want to post anything useful or post with personality, not being able to see their post count won't change their approach. Maybe it takes focus off post counts but I don't think it's a magic cure for people's attitudes and/or maturity.

Why not? The players look at the ball now! They watch it, no matter WHERE it goes! |

You mean they stare at the ball while they're dribbling and have psychic abilities to know where their man is, dismissing all pheriperal vision abilities, to keep their eyes on the ball?! WHOOAA!!

Hey, i never thought about that properly actually. I wonder if they actually watch the ball while they dribble.

I saw the special new stuff here: http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/2441.html but though the new movements were cool, the jumpshot animation is the worst thing I've ever seen my entire life. God.

I still don't believe hidden post counts would accomplish all that much. It seems such a small cure for what would appear to be an ongoing problem (albeit a problem that seems to affect other communities as well) and as I've said before, if people want to spam they're going to spam. If they don't want to post anything useful or post with personality, not being able to see their post count won't change their approach. Maybe it takes focus off post counts but I don't think it's a magic cure for people's attitudes and/or maturity.

To a certain extent I agree with this theory, but on one ground I disagree. The removal of the post count could remove the positive reinforcement of that particular action. For example, a spammer loses the incentive to post a smiley or somethin like 'word' because there's no positive outcome for the post i.e. no increased post count. While this may not stem all spamming, it could have somewhat an effect. Why would a spammer post something insignificant if there was nothing to gain from it? The lack of the post count combined with the combined veteran condemnation of spamming to be adequate to minimalising spamming or at least affecting the trend.

The negative of removing the post count would be no 'X amount of posts' celebratory threads. But this would trigger a respect based on seen involvement in the community and length of membership. This could potentially be positive...

While I am far from being an active poster, greatly towards the passive end of the spectrum, I have been on the forum for a few years and noticed that the general maturity and discussive capability has gradually declined. For every good new poster we get, we seem to get 2 new spammers. This is not a problem that will eradicate itself, and I think experimentation would be a positice step in limiting this spamming. While this crituque may be contraicting your position Andrew, it is with utmost respect to your role and that of the other Mods/Team members. One of the reasons for this position is to further help the aforementioned, to take the strain off the supervision of the forum and to further promote your participation in the discussion. If it grants you X more minutes per day which you can post rather than oversee the forum it would further help promote effective and intelligent posting.

Well that my spiel. Looking forward to the general reaction. Cheers Ty

I agree it has it merits but again, in my experience if people truly want to spam, they'll spam. It happened in the Discus forum and post counts weren't visible there. In fact, hiding post counts encourages "What's my post count?" threads.

I see what you're saying about giving spammers something positive ie. a higher post count for spamming but plenty of message boards have visible post counts and they're doing fine. If we can provide enough of a deterrent to spamming then people aren't going to place as much stock in high post counts since posting simply for the sake of boosting one's post count would be discouraged and met with harsher punishments.

I'd say hiding the post counts also disguises spamming in a way. Right now if someone joins up and posts 50 messages their first day, it's obvious because one only has to look at one of their posts to see the date they joined and the obscene amount of posts they've made thus far. It's easy enough to recognise their efforts as spamming but placing a number on it does make it more difficult for spammers and trolls to go about their business covertly.

We have become a bit lenient, not completely for the worse but we could stand to be a bit more vigilant. We've been making some steps in recent weeks in that regard. Moderating is all about balance and it swings back and forth. Every so often we'll need to ease up a bit and other times we need to get tougher. We've probably taken a bit too long in getting tougher but at the same time we go through cycles with members and various "slow" points of the year.

Well I can definately see your point in that regard. I guess it is a constant struggle for middle ground, trying to find what is best for the forum as a whole. Maybe if we can all focus and promote the good aspects of the forum others will follow. Who knows? I respect your apporach to the admin side, I can't imagine it being an easy task. Hopefully this discussion will at least trigger a gradual change on the basis of reason and community, rather than having to take a stand and impose new rules.

I don't think it will come to that. We're always looking to get better and make changes when changes are needed but I don't see the site or forum as being in utter chaos and turmoil, so we shouldn't have to do anything too drastic. As I said we've been getting a bit tougher in recent weeks and will continue to be more vigilant in discouraging spam. It might take a little bit before some people get the hint but ultimately I think we'll be seeing less of it without making the forum an unfriendly place to post.

Well, after reading the thread on the NBA Live 07 Finals Simulation, doesn't it make perfectly good sense why EA Sports doesn't give us as much info as other gaming sites? Sure we might be the biggest NBA Live site on the net, but honestly, we(not all of us, but most in general) flat out trash their game. It's like we take everything for granted. EA is nice enough to finally interact in here and everyone takes a dump on their game.

"Ugh, it looks like NBA Live 06"
"Man, the graphics suck"
"The sliding is still there"
"This game's gonna suck!"
"It's the exact same as NBA Live 06, and Live 06 was the worst basketball game ever made."
"They still haven't fixed ____ bug (still failing to realize the game is 4-5 months away from shipping)"
"I hate this game. I stopped playing it after I bought it. I took it back to EB Games. I still play Live 2000."
"This game's garbage. I hate ___ in the game, I hate ___, I hate when it ___, I hate how it's not realistic."
"NBA 2k is 100x better than this shit."
"Why can't this game be like Madden?"
"Hell, why can't this game be something, ANYTHING else than NBA Live?"

That's all alot of the members have said over the past few years. After the first week of release of all the compliments and it's awesomeness, we go back to 11 months of hate, cursing, and bitterness toward the game. If I'm EA, do I really want to give information to a site that just butchers it? Do you feed a dog that can't eat, or a person that pukes up everything they consume?

If some of the members would have an OUNCE of respect toward the NBA Live series maybe they would be more interactive in the community. Would you guys rather have no game at all? And alot of people here only have computers and no real source of basketball. Would they be happier if NBA Live decided to ditch PC and make the game only for console?

Well, that's likely part of the problem. That's not to say we shouldn't be critical and offer nothing but ass kissing praise but I don't think the criticisms are always constructive and in the past people have actually demonstrated an unwillingness to listen to what members of the production team have to say. I personally think we have to meet them halfway on things like that. Let's face it, they don't have any obligation to post here so if we can't demonstrate they'd be welcome and we're interested in what they have to say, they don't have much incentive to interact with us.

I still have to go back to the NBA Live 2004 official patch. We were given the opportunity to help out with that update and we did to the best of our ability, but it was still a disappointing turnout. We needed to provide our PC's specs so certain technical fixes could be developed for different hardware. Several people responded but didn't bother to provide the requested information. Despite several notices most people just posted repeated bug lists and anti-EA comments. Then when it was all said and done, some people complained that the patch didn't work for their hardware, a situation that could've been avoided if people had taken the opportunity to interact with the production team and offer some useful feedback. That was pretty disappointing.

Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea, I must stress it's not about never saying anything bad or critical. That's just counter-productive. As TBD said, it's about being respectful and civil. With people calling the production team lazy or stupid or whatever, that's doesn't suggest the community as a whole is interested in what they have to say, or demonstrate any civility if they were to get involved in some way here in the Forum.

But a lot of it is simply to do with confidentiality agreements. EA employees can't just come here and feed us inside information, there are restrictions on what they can and cannot say. Depending on company policy, they might not be able to reveal much at all, thus any interaction with us on the Forum as far as Q&A sessions and so forth might not seem worthwhile since they can't really say anything that hasn't already been revealed through the usual sources.

Anyway, I'd like to think we can maintain a rapport with the production team and EA Sports, I'm willing to do whatever I can to make it possible. But at the end of the day confidentiality agreements do come into play so there are always going to be limits on what can happen in that regard.

Well, after reading the thread on the NBA Live 07 Finals Simulation, doesn't it make perfectly good sense why EA Sports doesn't give us as much info as other gaming sites? Sure we might be the biggest NBA Live site on the net, but honestly, we(not all of us, but most in general) flat out trash their game. It's like we take everything for granted. EA is nice enough to finally interact in here and everyone takes a dump on their game.

"Ugh, it looks like NBA Live 06"
"Man, the graphics suck"
"The sliding is still there"
"This game's gonna suck!"
"It's the exact same as NBA Live 06, and Live 06 was the worst basketball game ever made."
"They still haven't fixed ____ bug (still failing to realize the game is 4-5 months away from shipping)"
"I hate this game. I stopped playing it after I bought it. I took it back to EB Games. I still play Live 2000."
"This game's garbage. I hate ___ in the game, I hate ___, I hate when it ___, I hate how it's not realistic."
"NBA 2k is 100x better than this shit."
"Why can't this game be like Madden?"
"Hell, why can't this game be something, ANYTHING else than NBA Live?"

That's all alot of the members have said over the past few years. After the first week of release of all the compliments and it's awesomeness, we go back to 11 months of hate, cursing, and bitterness toward the game. If I'm EA, do I really want to give information to a site that just butchers it? Do you feed a dog that can't eat, or a person that pukes up everything they consume?

If some of the members would have an OUNCE of respect toward the NBA Live series maybe they would be more interactive in the community. Would you guys rather have no game at all? And alot of people here only have computers and no real source of basketball. Would they be happier if NBA Live decided to ditch PC and make the game only for console?

I think that's a fairly large overreaction. I just checked out the thread, and you've got to take into account a few things..

1: 90% of the criticisms is that it looks like Live 06, people aren't ripping the game apart feature by feature, it's virtually all the same message.

2: The people making the most scathing/unnecessary criticisms are mostly spammers, look at the usernames, I can't recognise any of them.

3: Alot of the critical posts end with people saying they still think the game will be good, or hope that it will be etc. It's not a "fuck this I'm going to 2K" thread.

I don't think EA should be flamed at all for their product, but if the reason they don't interact with the NLSC more is that they don't want people to criticise them, they should go and find a less critical job, like lawn mowing.

EA is nice enough to finally interact in here and everyone takes a dump on their game.

Ha-ha. That's funny. EA visits here? If they do, they sure are very interactive with the community.

EA has had consistant though very limited interaction with our community through out the years.

if NBA Live decided to ditch PC and make the game only for console?

It wouldn't be the first time.

they should go and find a less critical job, like lawn mowing.

No they shouldn't, it's so dangerous doctors call that job the "widow-maker".

To give my opinion on the 3 points raised by Jae:
1: Knowledgeable long-time NBA Live fans in the forums would rather have great gameplay than eye-popping graphics, so the game looking more like Live 06 isn't a problem for most experienced Live gamers. Only Live noobs salivate/complain/want uber graphics.

2: Damn true. They might also be Live noobs who hop on to the haters bandwagon that might be prevalent in a thread.

3: This affects me as Live gamer myself. I would be lying if I didn't admit I'm a Live flamer also. It's nice that they put in new feature/s every year but that pales in comparison to the new bugs that come with the game and the features which are previously in the game are now removed with a new version.
Whether some of you may agree or not, Live has set in the past the standards of what a basketball videogame should be like, and whether EA likes it or not, the great strides that they have done is biting them back on the ass because fans always have high expectations for the new Live releases. Unfortunately for EA, some of the fan expectations are not met by the new game and thus the tendency to hate the game.

(I still doubt Live gamers know the beauty and sheer fun and joy of playing NBA Live with friends whilst drunk. There's so much trash-talking, cheering, and booing that it seems like we were in an actual game. Good times.)

Well, in regards to the video that was posted (which has now been removed), it was mistakenly identified as being from NBA Live 07 in the information package I received, it is indeed from NBA Live 06 (and right after I asserted the info was correct - just my luck ).

thanks EA.

The screens are definitely from the current gen version of NBA Live 07 though, so I was at least right in insisting the info was accurate in that regard. First time the jinx has ever affected anything other than NBA results.

Nobody embarasses Andrew, no one I tell you! EA shall pay for what they have done.

I am only one who thinks that NLSC is experiencing droppance of posters? Where have all the big time spammers go (I'm using it as a positive term. Well, perhaps not positive, but certainly not in a negative way) - Jugs, Riot, Jackal (OK, he has exams, but so do I and I still find time to write five or ten posts per day),... This place feels kinda deserted.