The politics thread

[Riot]

Good, the more troops the better. Currently, the troops are spread out too thin. Rumsfeld has been pressured by many people to send over more troops than what he has done. I think Rumsfeld is finally giving in.

And of course, I wish those men and women good luck in serving their countries. They will be saluted and honored when they come home.

[Riot]

U.S. ahead of Canada in tackling air pollution: activists

CBC News

Canada lags behind the United States when it comes to clamping down on air pollution, says an environmental watchdog.

Pollution Watch says the United States reduced air pollution emissions by 45 per cent between 1995 and 2003, while Canada reduced air pollution emissions by 1.8 per cent over the same period.

"There is evidence that U.S. facilities are outperforming Canadian facilities," said Paul Muldoon, with the Canadian Environmental Law Association, a partner with Pollution Watch.

The organization compared the output of the same chemicals from the same type of facilities in the two countries to reach that conclusion, he said.

Ottawa fails to follow through on its environmental promises and Canadians fail to hold it accountable, says the group.

"Canadians have been letting the government off the hook on environmental requirements ... and not focusing enough on holding government to tangible measures of performance," said Muldoon.

"In many parts of our country, smog days are the new normal," said Rick Smith, executive director of Pollution Watch.

The group also released a list of what it calls the "Dirty Dozen Air Polluters," the 12 companies that release the most pollutants into the air. They are:

Inco Ltd. (Ont.)
Alcan Inc. (Que.)
Ontario Power Generation (Ont.)
Nova Scotia Power Inc. (N.S.)
Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company Inc. (Man.)
SaskPower (Sask.)
Syncrude Canada Ltd. (Alta.)
Transalta Utilities Corporation (Alta.)
New Brunswick Power Corp. (N.B.)
Noranda Inc. (Ont.)
Aluminerie de Becancour Inc. (Que.)
EnCana Corp. (Alta.)

Pollution Watch

Source

Hmm...all the hate and everyone saying America doesn't care about the environment and Canada does seems to be a little bit un-factual. If they aren't protecting the environment, what the fuck is Canada doing?

Check out this picture of a beautiful Toronto skyline.

[Cable]

It wasn't me, I swear!

[hipn]

Yeah seriosuly though Toronto is pretty polluted, I mean I went to Island School while in grade 6 (it was fun and everythings) and when I was on the island, I looked at Toronto and it was all foggy and the lcoads looked weird, and no, it was not a foggy day, its was a clear sunny day, but I could see that the air was pretty dirty. Toronto and the rest of Canada needs to work on reducing pollution both air and water.

[Riot]

Kurds Campaign Thanks U.S. for Liberation
www.newsmax.com
A group representing Kurdistan thanks America for liberating that nation from Saddam Hussein's dictatorship of terrorism.

"The Kurds of Iraqi Kurdistan just want to say ‘thank you for helping us win our freedom. Thank you for democracy. Thank you America.”

The print and broadcast advertisements are sponsored by the Kurdistan Development Corporation, an organization created by the government of Kurdistan to encourage international investment.

The ad campaign began Monday in the United States with ads in The Wall Street Journal and on Fox News Channel. Ads begin airing Nov. 14 airing in Europe.

The group describes Kurdistan as a place "where peace and prosperity have reigned since liberation from Saddam Hussein.”
Bayan Sami Abdul Rahman, Chairman of the Kurdistan Development Corporation and Kurdistan’s High Representative to the UK, says the commercials are necessary to counter the American media’s largely negative coverage of Iraq.

"We feel the mainstream media,” she tells Newsmax, "is focusing on the negative stories coming out of Iraq and very rarely highlighting the good news.”

"We’re not saying that the media doesn’t tell the truth. They do tell the truth. There is violence. There is an insurgency. But it’s not the whole truth, or the whole picture.”

"The truth is that while there is violence,” she continues, "there are big strides being taken towards democracy in Iraq, particularly in Kurdistan. There are vast sections of Iraq, and again particularly Kurdistan, where the region is safe, stable, and people are getting on with their lives, doing business, trying to build a future.”

Indeed, not a single coalition soldier has died in Kurdistan since March 2003.

Rahman worries, however, about suggestions that the United States should pull out of Iraq.

"If people are saying that America should withdraw their troops now, that would be a catastrophe, not only for the people of Iraq but also for the Middle East and the wider intentional community and the United States,” she says.

The current peace and prosperity is a welcome change from conditions under Saddam Hussein, who targeted the Kurds throughout his rule.

Among other atrocities, Hussein ordered the use of chemical weapons against the Kurdish village of Halabja in 1988, killing an estimated 5,000 Kurds, a majority of which were women and children.

Following the Gulf War in 1991, the United States and the United Kingdom established "no-fly zones” in northern Iraq to prevent continued bombing of Kurdistan by Saddam. Kurds ran a semi-autonomous government under the protection of the "no-fly zones.”

Kurdistan President H.E. Masoud Barzani thanked President Bush for his dedication to Iraqi freedom in an Oct. 25 visit to the White House.
"It was a brave decision that you have made,” Barzani told the president, "you have liberated a people from a dictatorial regime that has hurt a lot of people.”

Rahman goes further, calling President Bush a "hero.”

"The people of Kurdistan and the government of Kurdistan,” she gushes, "admire President Bush’s courage in fighting Saddam Hussein despite some of the doubts of America’s international partners.”

Rahman says there is no question that the decision to liberate Iraq was just.

"Saddam Hussein was a tyrant,” she notes, "a dictator who committed genocide against the people of Kurdistan ... To get rid of someone like that, there should be no question.”

In addition to the advertisments, the group maintains a Web site, www.theotheriraq.com, expressing its gratitude to the U.S. and the value of Kurdistan to the world community.

I love it when they called President Bush a hero. I just thought I'd share the OTHER side of the story. The side that the media for some reason doesn't want the average American to know.

[cyanide]

Indeed, not a single coalition soldier has died in Kurdistan since March 2003.

Maybe that's why

[nitro77]

Why the hell do the United Sates have to be involved in everything?

Because they ask? Because we want to help? Because we are the World Police, whether you like it or not?

You'd be amazed how many countries beg for America's help. Of course, not every country is going to agree with America because they stick their nose in that countries buisness. However, it doesn't matter. I really couldn't care less if China hates us. I really couldn't care less if France hates us. I wouldn't care if every single country in the world hated us. Despite the hate that goes around the world, we still help people. We still help the people that hate us. We still help the people that chew us out. Sometimes I wish we would just say screw it and not send any aid or supplies ANYWHERE in the whole world for a year. Bring our troops back and our naval ships back to port and around American targets and ports. See how well the world would do without America to hold the pieces in place. You'd be amazed how quickly the world would fall apart.

in which world you're living in? the united states want to help? haaa, they never would do anything without having own interests. guy, open your eyes!

[Stevesanity]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051113/ap_ ... itain_iraq

LONDON - British troops could leave
Iraq by the end of 2006, Iraqi President Jalal Talabani said in a television interview to be broadcast on Sunday. Britain's top soldier said this timetable was well within the realm of possibility.

Talabani said Iraqi troops should be ready to take over from British forces in the southern provinces around Basra by the end of next year, adding no Iraqis wanted foreign troops to remain indefinitely in their country.

But he warned that an immediate withdrawal of U.S.-led forces would be a catastrophe for Iraq and would lead to civil war, with harmful consequences for the entire Middle East.

"We don't want British forces forever in Iraq. Within one year — I think at the end of 2006 — Iraqi troops will be ready to replace British forces in the south," Talabani said in the interview with Jonathan Dimbleby for Independent Television. The station released details from the interview before it aired.

British army chief of staff Gen. Sir Mike Jackson, said Sunday that this timetable was "well within the range of what is realistically possible."

"The president has said that we could leave within year or so. I would agree — we most certainly could. But it's a question of achieving the right conditions," Jackson told the British Broadcasting Corp.'s Sunday A.M. program.

Pressed on whether the assessment amounted to a commitment, Talabani replied: "Well, I haven't been in negotiations, but in my opinion and according to my study of the situation, I can say that it is the just estimation of the situation ... There is not one Iraqi that wants that forever the troops remain in the country."

He said, however, that immediate withdrawal "would lead to a kind of civil war and ... we will lose what we have done for liberating Iraq from worst kind of dictatorship."

"Instead of having a democratic, stable Iraq, we will have a civil war in Iraq, we will have troubles in Iraq, (and they) will affect all the Middle East."

Talabani called for a gradual pullout, with close coordination between coalition nations and the Iraqi authorities.

He acknowledged that an upsurge of violence could be expected in the run-up to National Assembly elections, scheduled for Dec. 15, but denied that insurgents would be able to influence the result of the ballot.

"I think they will fail, because the Iraqi people are now determined to participate in election," Talabani said. "Even our Sunni Arab brothers are participating actively — they have many lists for election, and they want to be represented in the next parliament."

Talabani denied there was any link between Britain's involvement in the war in Iraq and the July 7 terror attacks in London that killed 56 people, including the four suicide bombers.

"I cannot accept this," he said.

Your views on this Oracle Riot

[Riot]

The British can leave if they want to leave, they are an important part of the rebuilding process. The important part is the Iraqis would be able to take over certain parts of Iraq. The parts that have the least amount of insergents and violence. I don't have a problem with that.

America will stay until the job is complete and the transition is ready to be made. America has 2/3 or more of the troops in Iraq so a pull out of British troops shouldn't create too much of a stir if the pullout it done slowly and an effective strategy is in place for possible American troop take over in those areas.

in which world you're living in? the united states want to help? haaa, they never would do anything without having own interests. guy, open your eyes!

What excatly is America getting out of being in Iraq? Losing billions of dollars a day? Losing thousands of lives? Losing the support of the people at home? Perhaps the gas prices any cheaper? Nope, they aren't.

America helps in a TON of world issues, most of them you probably don't even know about. I suppose they get some kind of reward from everything? Can you tell me what Columbia is giving America by us helping their drug wars? Can you tell me what in the world can some African countries be giving us? Can you tell me what Bosnia is giving America? Seriously, stop sipping the hatorade and shut the fuck up.

[Stevesanity]

The British can leave if they want to leave, they are an important part of the rebuilding process. The important part is the Iraqis would be able to take over certain parts of Iraq. The parts that have the least amount of insergents and violence. I don't have a problem with that.

America will stay until the job is complete and the transition is ready to be made. America has 2/3 or more of the troops in Iraq so a pull out of British troops shouldn't create too much of a stir if the pullout it done slowly and an effective strategy is in place for possible American troop take over in those areas.

in which world you're living in? the united states want to help? haaa, they never would do anything without having own interests. guy, open your eyes!

What excatly is America getting out of being in Iraq? Losing billions of dollars a day? Losing thousands of lives? Losing the support of the people at home? Perhaps the gas prices any cheaper? Nope, they aren't.

America helps in a TON of world issues, most of them you probably don't even know about. I suppose they get some kind of reward from everything? Can you tell me what Columbia is giving America by us helping their drug wars? Can you tell me what in the world can some African countries be giving us? Can you tell me what Bosnia is giving America? Seriously, stop sipping the hatorade and shut the fuck up.

You know even though I consider myself an anti-Bush, you make some very good points when it comes to politics....maybe you should forget the army and think politics Riot. I think you could outwit, outlast and outplay most of the guys in the senate right now.

[Riot]

I enjoy politics but I would never want to be a politican. I want to live a simple life.

[Bang]

The British can leave if they want to leave, they are an important part of the rebuilding process. The important part is the Iraqis would be able to take over certain parts of Iraq. The parts that have the least amount of insergents and violence. I don't have a problem with that.

America will stay until the job is complete and the transition is ready to be made. America has 2/3 or more of the troops in Iraq so a pull out of British troops shouldn't create too much of a stir if the pullout it done slowly and an effective strategy is in place for possible American troop take over in those areas.

in which world you're living in? the united states want to help? haaa, they never would do anything without having own interests. guy, open your eyes!

What excatly is America getting out of being in Iraq? Losing billions of dollars a day? Losing thousands of lives? Losing the support of the people at home? Perhaps the gas prices any cheaper? Nope, they aren't.

America helps in a TON of world issues, most of them you probably don't even know about. I suppose they get some kind of reward from everything? Can you tell me what Columbia is giving America by us helping their drug wars? Can you tell me what in the world can some African countries be giving us? Can you tell me what Bosnia is giving America? Seriously, stop sipping the hatorade and shut the fuck up.

Iraq: Oil. Not yet, but eventually it will be very beneficial.
Columbia: Well a lot of those drugs or most of those drugs go to the US. So they want to stop drugs from going to the US. Drugs hurt the US economy because the prices can be inflated and manipulated without having to worry about the loss in demand.
African Countries: Well that's why there is a lack of help in Africa. The US doesn't care because there is hardly any benefit for them.
Bosnia: You got me with that one. I have no idea. Maybe because I have almost 0 knowledge on the Bosnia situation.

[Riot]

Iraq: Yeah, it probably will be beneficial, but not to just the United States. It will be beneficial to the whole world because Iraq's oil production will be higher and they will distrubt it fairly across the globe.
Columbia: A lot of those drugs do get into the United States but there are a lot of countries that have drug problems that make it into the US. But you are right, that is one of the reasons why we are in Columbia.
African Countries: We have troops and supplies in African countries. But what can you do? Africa has very limited natural resources and no money. If all you can't export anything valuable and you have to import everything with no money you aren't going to go very far. I think rebuilding Africa is a joke because I don't think it will ever be built up. I just think it's a waste of money that could go somewhere else where progress would be more likely.
Bosnia: Bascially it was Bosnia's civil war.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is this. Name a time when a country has done something drastic and gotten nothing in return for it? You stratch my back and I'll stratch yours. That's the best example I can give you. America does more "volunteer" work than any other country today. They help when people ask for our help. Yet for some reason, people tend to twist that help and make it seem as if America is always corrupt and everything they do is retarded and awful.

America donates money and it's not enough.
America helps Columbia fight drug wars and people say it's only because we want something back.
America helps rebuild Bosnia and people don't care.
America is in Africa and nobody cares.
America rebuilds and places a democracy in Iraq and all they get is bashed.

I could go on but I think you get the point. No matter what America does they cannot win with you guys. I'm not talking to anyone in particular either. But some people are so anti-American where they are practically blind from everything. Meh, this post wasn't very good.

[Stevesanity]

I enjoy politics but I would never want to be a politican. I want to live a simple life.

Being a politician is easier than being a Soldier.

[cyanide]

Africa has very limited natural resources

I might be very wrong, but given the land area, doesn't Africa have an abundant supply of diamonds, rubber, and coal?

[Riot]

They don't have enough to make any kind of money. The kind of resources they need like lumber, most agriculture, ect they don't have. They simply don't have the money.

I enjoy politics but I would never want to be a politican. I want to live a simple life.

Being a politician is easier than being a Soldier.

Not really.

[Riot]

I saw this on google and I decided I had to post it. I figured it was related because of politics.

[Jackal]

I've seen that one, but I prefer the one of him & Dad fishing at NO.

[spreeul8r]

America/Iraq and WMD:
As the article states, its always important to know the timeline so you can put things into perspective.

http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/0 ... eline.html



Examples of America combating Terrorism and Drugs:



http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/0 ... sada.shtml

http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/1 ... poppy.html

Even though i dont agree with your views riot, i do respect your willingness to discuss these issues and your thoughful responses. Most of the discusioins ive had (on the internet anyway) with George W supporters have deteriorated faster than his public support First thing i usually get after posting something that they dont agree with or that hurts their arguement is childish abuse and derogative democrat labels

[Riot]

America/Iraq and WMD:
As the article states, its always important to know the timeline so you can put things into perspective.

http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/0 ... eline.html



Examples of America combating Terrorism and Drugs:



http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/0 ... sada.shtml

http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/1 ... poppy.html

Even though i dont agree with your views riot, i do respect your willingness to discuss these issues and your thoughful responses. Most of the discusioins ive had (on the internet anyway) with George W supporters have deteriorated faster than his public support First thing i usually get after posting something that they dont agree with or that hurts their arguement is childish abuse and derogative democrat labels

I usually read articles, especially ones posted by another point of view, but I really don't feel like reading them. I'll try to read them over Thanksgiving break. Thanks for the links though, I'll try to read them as soon as I'm "capable".

However, one thing I want to point out is this. Congress passed 22 reasons why America should go to war with Iraq. Only one of those reasons were WMD's. So even if the WMD's aren't there (even though I fully believe that Saddam had/has WMD's) the war was still justified and it was not an "illegal" war.

[spreeul8r]

Thats cool, there is quite a bit of reading, which is usually a good thing.

The timeline article is the one i would recommend if you dont have time to read them all.

Here is another story regarding Bush - Cheney and drugs.

http://fromthewilderness.com/free/ciadr ... drugs.html

[Riot]

I'll certainly check it out, but probably over Thanksgiving break. I'll reply with my thoughts when I read them.

[Riot]

I've been trying to find the right words for some time to describe how I feel about the current social climate regarding the war in Iraq. I think I found something that expresses it better than I ever could.

This letter is from Minnesota's Lt. Col. Joe Repya, who volunteered to return to active duty for service in Iraq at age 59. Joe's previous service includes command of a rifle platoon in Vietnam and flying helicopters in the first Gulf War.

Joe is a classic citizen patriot and activist. In March 2003 when, disturbed by the anti-war campaign mounted by Minnesota liberals, he arranged for the production of lawn signs saying "Liberate Iraq -- Support Our Troops." Needless to say, he has garnered a lot of publicity.

He writes:

Two weeks ago, as I was starting my sixth month of duty in Iraq, I was forced to return to the USA for surgery for an injury I sustained prior to my deployment. With luck, I'll return to Iraq in January to finish my tour. I left Baghdad and a war that has every indication that we are winning, to return to a demoralized country much like the one I returned to in 1971 after my tour in Vietnam. Maybe it's because I'll turn 60 years old in just four months, but I'm tired:

I'm tired of spineless politicians, both Democrat and Republican who lack the courage, fortitude, and character to see these difficult tasks through.

I'm tired of the hypocrisy of politicians who want to rewrite history when the going gets tough.

I'm tired of the disingenuous clamor from those that claim they "Support the Troops" by wanting them to "Cut and Run" before victory is achieved.

I'm tired of a mainstream media that can only focus on car bombs and casualty reports because they are too afraid to leave the safety of their hotels to report on the courage and success our brave men and women are having on the battlefield.

I'm tired that so many American's think you can rebuild a dictatorship into a democracy over night.

I'm tired that so many ignore the bravery of the Iraqi people to go to the voting booth and freely elect a Constitution and soon a permanent Parliament.

I'm tired of the so called "Elite Left" that prolongs this war by giving aid and comfort to our enemy, just as they did during the Vietnam War.

I'm tired of anti-war protesters showing up at the funerals of our fallen soldiers. A family who's loved ones gave their life in a just and noble cause, only to be cruelly tormented on the funeral day by cowardly protesters is beyond shameful.

I'm tired that my generation, the Baby Boom - Vietnam generation, who have such a weak backbone that they can't stomach seeing the difficult tasks through to victory.

I'm tired that some are more concerned about the treatment of captives then they are the slaughter and beheading of our citizens and allies.

I'm tired that when we find mass graves it is seldom reported by the press, but mistreat a prisoner and it is front page news.

Mostly, I'm tired that the people of this great nation didn't learn from history that there is no substitute for Victory.

Sincerely,

Joe Repya
Lieutenant Colonel
U. S. Army
101st Airborne Division

Credit to BWW78 from realgm for posting this on their political forum.

[spreeul8r]

Well im not an American so i cant really comment on the public support for your troops. I am Australian, and i support our troops in Iraq. I would never blaim them. They are just following orders with the belief that there government wouldn't put them in harms way unless it was absolutely necessary.

I just doubt the sincerity of our government.

[cyanide]

I just read this interesting thing today:

America spent about $700 million on putting a stop to the opium drug trade in Afghanistan, but they could've spent $150 million less if they bought this year's entire crop of poppies.