You know its the 2000's when...

[el badman]

I feel the exact same way Drew, those ads annoy the hell out of me for the same reasons, they're definitely targetted at people who are not that computer-savvy to being with, and the issues that they're advertising as "PC only" can typically be solved in 30 seconds if you know what you're doing.
So I've learnt to just unplug my brain when watching these ads rather than wanting to strangle fucking Justin Long or whatever his name is...

[Joe']

See, that's the thing. I think a lot of people pick up Macs because they believe them to be easier to use but not being computer savvy, they struggle with them just as much. Being clueless, they find Mac Os just as difficult or confusing.

Of course, someone who's clueless or someone who isn't capable of using a computer on his own won't even care about what OS he/she's using, hell he/she probably won't know what an OS is. But I believe an open-minded intermediate user will find things to be faster and easier to do on Mac OS X.

I can appreciate that, but my experiences have been to the contrary so obviously we have different views on the matter. I do know that most people who've always used Macs do swear by them, just as people who have always been able to get the job done with PC (like myself) aren't easy to sell on switching either. I suppose that once again comes down to being savvy with whatever system you're using.

I used Windows my whole life until eight months ago, when I got my iMac. I used to hate Macs because I though they were unnecessarily expensive. When I found out how much faster I could do things on Mac OS X, I couldn't believe it.

As I said in my previous post, most Mac users are switchers, while I don't recall Mac users switching to Windows.

It probably was, this was back in 2002. But if Mac OS 9 and the first releases of Mac OS X weren't very stable, I think that's a good example of Apple being just as imperfect as Microsoft. How are those operating systems being less reliable any different to Vista having its issues (which I again concede are difficult to defend)? Again, it seems to me both systems have had their shortcomings.

I never said Apple was perfect. Nonetheless I believe it's doing a much better job than Microsoft at the moment, just like Microsoft was doing a better job than Apple in the early 00's.

Also, you have to consider that Apple had almost gone bankrupt back in '98, and only started showing revival signs two years after that, with the release of the original Mac OS X. Not to mention the fact that most issues found on the first two releases of Mac OS X were resolved as of 10.1.5 in June and 10.2 in September of 2002.

I feel while Apple is justified for its (past) shortcomings, while Microsoft doesn't have any excuses. I mean, they developed Vista for more than five years, yet I don't know of any Windows user who's happy with Vista, at least Vista as is, without any modifications, tweaks or user-intervention.

In the meantime, Apple's made a huge comeback in the past five years and delivered (in my opinion at least) a constantly-updated operative system. Lots of people feel the last version of this OS (Leopard) is the best operating system out there, including a wide selection of critics.

I don't know about that, some of the things that are pushed as advantages of Macs also strike me as possible drawbacks

Would you mind getting more into it?

...not to mention compatibility issues, the more limited range of software (at least in my observation), etc. Again, I realise they're not going to talk about Mac's shortcomings in ads trying to sell them but I just don't see them as this basically flawless system compared to PCs being riddled with issues with no advantages whatsoever, which is how a lot of people have tried to sell me on.

There haven't been compatibility issues on Macs since the switch to Intel in late 2005. As for the limited range of software, if you're referring to videogames, I agree with you (and I explained how to solve the issue previously). If you're referring to other desktop applications, I can assure most applications available on Windows are available on Mac OS, and if they're not, there are very valid alternatives.

Actually I know for a fact some excellent applications available on Mac OS aren't available on Windows (iLife, iWork as well as other Apple products and other apps like Transmition, Fluid, ComicLife, etc), and some commercial applications available on both platforms are much better on Mac OS X. A perfect example is the whole Adobe Creative Suite (Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Fireworks) and, believe it or not, Microsoft Office.

I feel the exact same way Drew, those ads annoy the hell out of me for the same reasons, they're definitely targetted at people who are not that computer-savvy to being with, and the issues that they're advertising as "PC only" can typically be solved in 30 seconds if you know what you're doing.
So I've learnt to just unplug my brain when watching these ads rather than wanting to strangle fucking Justin Long or whatever his name is...

Not everyone can be as savvy as you, and certainly not everybody can fix those issues in 30 seconds.

Anyway, the point is, the user shouldn't have to fix anything. And that's what great about Macs, everything works out of the box. If the OS comes preinstalled, you don't have to set up anything on a Mac, while the setup process in Windows is long and painful. Even every time you connect a device to your computer, on Windows you have to install drivers and applications, while on Mac OS X everything's already set up.

[el badman]

Even every time you connect a device to your computer, on Windows you have to install drivers and applications, while on Mac OS X everything's already set up.

Hmmm, since XP any USB device is automatically installed. Of course the driver will not be optimal, and you can always upgrade it afterwards, but at least it will work. Same thing for other ports, like PCI-E.

[Patr1ck]

[BigKaboom2]

on Mac OS X everything's already set up.

Or isn't supported.

[cyanide]

I have to agree with Joe regarding the OS X vs Windows issues, and of course, I could be biased but I'll give a bit of input. I also used to be a Mac hater until I actually tried it out. I've worked with Windows since I was a kid up until two years ago, and OS X is a breath of fresh air.

At work, I'm using Vista. I've been using it for a few weeks now, and I absolutely hate it. I can't even organize my windows, partly due to not being able to organize the taskbar (open a program, it's first on the taskbar, and it changes every time I open/close programs, and it gets more confusing when the taskbar gets full, while in OS X, the program is exactly in the same place on the dock). Keyboard shortcuts are inconsistent on different programs. I can't do basic typographic features like en/em spaces and dashes, ellipses, etc. Programs randomly crash, which is expected. It's a pain in the ass to just simply install a program/uninstall, delete a file, preview an image, because there's a million annoying dialog boxes. Program interface are too different from one another. The new Aero features are more eye candy and annoying than useful: a window has to animate every time I switch, the stupid fancy tabbed window browsing is completely useless. Take a look:

Seriously. If I have 5 Illustrator windows open, I will not be able to tell the difference if every window is on top of one another. The first window on the stack covers about 15/16th of the bottom window, and every other window after. If I'm gonna pick something in the middle, the margin of error of picking the wrong window is high. Compare with OS X's Expose:

The Windows are all right there. If I have 5 Illustrator windows open, I'll be able to spot the one I need to switch to.

Efficient and productivity tools such as Expose, QuickLook and Spaces are big reasons that I get things done faster, and Vista's no different from XP, if not worse because of the the focus on cosmetics > simplicity, leading to an inefficient, inconsistent, annoying, bloated, error-prone, resource-hogging piece of crap.

If we're talking about usability design here, Windows has serious flaws.

Plus, most viruses are written to effect Microsoft systems.

Someone tried to write a Mac virus, and it came out only as a harmless worm. The guy admitted it was extremely difficult due to Unix. Now that the market share for the Mac is growing, I still haven't heard of a single virus and I'm sure somebody's itching to just try.

they're definitely targetted at people who are not that computer-savvy to being with, and the issues that they're advertising as "PC only" can typically be solved in 30 seconds if you know what you're doing.

No they're not. An OS is supposed to function and enable users to be more productive and efficient with their work. I'd rather get work done than waste 30 seconds to solve problems that shouldn't be there in the first place. Savvy?

Or isn't supported.

Explain.

Ironically, there are lots of programs that is available for Mac that I can't use on PC. In fact, other than gaming, there's nothing I can't do on a Mac that I can do on a PC.

[BigKaboom2]

There's a lot of external hardware that's Windows-only. And I don't understand why you'd want your OS deciding what drivers to use for something and presumably not notifying you of the version.

It's just the whole "computing for people who want to pretend a computer is a magical box that dispenses informaton" philosophy that gets to me. That and the gaming incompatibilities (yeah, there's CrossOver) and mainly the undesirable components that aren't easily upgradeable.

The Linux desktop environment community had all this graphical trickery long before Apple tried to take it mainstream...it's still superior IMO.

[cyanide]

There's a lot of external hardware that's Windows-only. And I don't understand why you'd want your OS deciding what drivers to use for something and presumably not notifying you of the version.

There's a lot of external hardware that works for both, and there's a lot of external hardware that's Mac-specific as well. I don't find that to be an issue. I'm not sure what you mean by the OS deciding which drivers to use for something... I just download the latest drivers for whichever peripherals I need from the vendor's website (ie: printer drivers from samsung.com)

It's just the whole "computing for people who want to pretend a computer is a magical box that dispenses informaton" philosophy that gets to me. That and the gaming incompatibilities (yeah, there's CrossOver) and mainly the undesirable components that aren't easily upgradeable.

I don't look into the Mac ads too much. Marketing is marketing, and it works for them. Fortunately, their products work very well too. I don't get what your big issue is with "undesirable components" and the whole upgrade bit. I can upgrade my Mac Pro to 16 GB of RAM, but I don't need that much RAM. I can play any PC game I want, because I can actually switch to native Windows XP by restarting my computer and utilize all of my hardware. I can install an anti-virus on Windows XP just like you guys

The Linux desktop environment community had all this graphical trickery long before Apple tried to take it mainstream...it's still superior IMO.

Good stuff. More power to Linux.

[Andrew]

I used Windows my whole life until eight months ago, when I got my iMac. I used to hate Macs because I though they were unnecessarily expensive. When I found out how much faster I could do things on Mac OS X, I couldn't believe it.

As I said in my previous post, most Mac users are switchers, while I don't recall Mac users switching to Windows.

I have no trouble believing that, but I don't think everyone has had such a problem free time with them judging by the support I've done in the past. Maybe it was just a case of PEBKAC but I still stand by the assertion that a computer, no matter OS, is capable of being frustrating at some point. Maybe not to me, maybe not to you, but to the average user. Even if it's finding their way around settings menus to setup or troubleshoot email.

In my experience, both Vista and Mac Os are frustrating to deal with when it comes to dialup support since they don't report specific error messages that indicate where the problem lies, making it difficult to see whether it's a hardware issue or not. Of course, this probably isn't as big an issue outside of Australia; dialup, sadly, is far from being obsolete here.

Would you mind getting more into it?

I've always been skeptical of the approach of the all-in-one system. They look sleek and all but it doesn't seem like there's as much potential to upgrade aside from RAM (I could be wrong, if so I stand corrected and would be interested to know what other components can be upgraded by the home user). There's also the issue of damage to the screen; if there's a problem there, the whole computer has to be looked at. You can't just replace hardware.

I should point out though that I'm not a huge fan of all-in-one devices in general, which is why I think the iPhone is cool but am in no hurry to get one. I don't mind having a phone, digital camera and mp3 player rather than just the one device. If I'm relying on one gadget for all those needs, I lose everything if something happens to that one gadget. I know that might seem pretty technophobic, especially for someone in the industry, but I feel there's drawbacks to consolidating everything into one device as much as it can be an advantage.

I'd include the lack of games as a drawback (obviously that doesn't matter to non-gamers) and while I appreciate that there is a solution to the problem that takes less than an hour, the PC offers a gaming solution that can take less than five minutes. As you noted, the user shouldn't have to fix things so while PC has its drawbacks in this area, I think fiddling around to get a game to work on a Mac has to be considered a drawback as well.

Look, I'm not trying to paint Macs as expensive paperweights. I can see the positives but they're just not the system for me. As far as the ads go, I'm just a bit put off by the smugness of them. Apparently I'm not alone in that assessment, with this review expressing similar sentiments and this one doing so in a more aggressive and sarcastic manner (to that end, the first one states the case a bit more eloquently since the second contains its fair share of Mac bashing).

[Cloudy]

Wow! Interesting read, guys. I just think macs are just more suitable for the creative class... which is really on the rise right now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc_uyC_GF3A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgzbhEc6 ... re=related

[Oznogrd]

I'm not going into as much depth as you guys about the difference in macs and pc all i know is i've had my mac about 6 days now and its better than my pc ever was. It does what i tell it to, i dont have to ctrl alt delete, and is just a easy to navigate as xp, and much easier than vista. Plus no viruses, some extra features in WoW, and a browser > IE (havent downloaded firefox yet). The only problem i've run into itunes is touchy but that was true on PC also. Im installing windows this weekend in order to get tiger and nba live onto the system.

[el badman]

el badman wrote:
they're definitely targetted at people who are not that computer-savvy to being with, and the issues that they're advertising as "PC only" can typically be solved in 30 seconds if you know what you're doing.


No they're not. An OS is supposed to function and enable users to be more productive and efficient with their work. I'd rather get work done than waste 30 seconds to solve problems that shouldn't be there in the first place. Savvy?

Correct, but I was only refering to Mac's intent, mostly thru these ads, to exacerbate people's inherent laziness, and incite them to spend twice the price for a Mac rather than researching (googling) any issue they could have and most likely find a solution in less than 2 minutes.

I mean, making a commercial about how intrusive and annoying UAC is in Vista? Takes 5 seconds to disable. How unsafe a PC generally is? Use Vista's default security tools, add AVG to that and you're set. How often a PC breaks down? At least, you won't need to replace the whole damn thing if it does, you'll most likely have to upgrade one or two components.
Anyway, I understand Apple's strategy and brand positioning, they couldn't have done it any better for the last few years. I still hate teir products and ads.

[Andrew]

I have a friend who bought a Macbook last year and he's been very happy with the decision so I certainly believe that a lot of people who make the switch don't look back. Like I said, I'm not trying to paint Macs as little more than expensive paperweights, it's just that in my experience they're not as infallible or unquestionably wonderful as people have tried to sell me on, which is why I'm bothered by the smugness of the "Get a Mac" campaign.

As the first article I posted notes:

The final straw, for me, is that the spots make unconvincing claims. The one titled "Network" has a funny bit where "that new digital camera from Japan" is represented by a Japanese woman in a minidress. While Hodgman has trouble talking with the woman, Long speaks Japanese and shares giggles with her because "everything just kind of works with a Mac." Now, I happen to have a digital camera from Japan, and it works just fine with my PC. It did from the moment I connected it. Similarly, the spot titled "Out of the Box" (again, a very funny visual metaphor, with Hodgman and Long crouching in cardboard boxes) suggests that new PCs require tons of attention and alteration when you first fire them up. But I bought a new ThinkPad notebook just a few months ago, and it ran on all cylinders pretty much straight out of the gate. Why insult my intelligence by telling me something that I know isn't true?

[Joe']

since XP any USB device is automatically installed. Of course the driver will not be optimal, and you can always upgrade it afterwards, but at least it will work

That's the thing, on OS X you don't have to install or upgrade anything, you just plug the device and you're good to go. The operative system recognizes the device and automatically opens the most appropriate application.

Someone tried to write a Mac virus, and it came out only as a harmless worm. The guy admitted it was extremely difficult due to Unix. Now that the market share for the Mac is growing, I still haven't heard of a single virus and I'm sure somebody's itching to just try.

Exactly, as I said before just two viruses were written for Mac OS X. One of them was a worm, as Cyanide said, and the other one, which is actually pretty recent (June 2008) is a trojan. Both of them attack the system via iChat, an application with an immense selection of alternatives, and both need user-interaction to operate.

Or isn't supported.

Big deal. If it's not supported natively, chances are you'll find the proper drivers at apple.com or the manufacturer's website.

Besides, it's not like Windows or Linux support everything natively.

And I don't understand why you'd want your OS deciding what drivers to use for something and presumably not notifying you of the version.

Why would you care what drivers you're using? I'm okay as long as they work and they're updated as frequently as possible.

That and the gaming incompatibilities (yeah, there's CrossOver)

Dude, CrossOver is a four-year-old technology. I can barely run SopCast on that thing.

Never heard of BootCamp? You can actually install Windows on Macs and install and play every game you want. And it's not emulation software like Parallels and VMWare.

The Linux desktop environment community had all this graphical trickery long before Apple tried to take it mainstream...it's still superior IMO.

Long before? Apple introduced Quartz Compositor in 1999, along with the public beta of Mac OS X. As far as I know Linux distros introduced their own version of GPU-accelerated window and desktop rendering around the same time.

Anyway, nothing against Linux. I loved Ubuntu the short time I used it.

I have no trouble believing that, but I don't think everyone has had such a problem free time with them judging by the support I've done in the past. Maybe it was just a case of PEBKAC but I still stand by the assertion that a computer, no matter OS, is capable of being frustrating at some point. Maybe not to me, maybe not to you, but to the average user. Even if it's finding their way around settings menus to setup or troubleshoot email.

Agreed. As I said, no computer is perfect, and you'll sure run into issues no matter the OS one time or another.

n my experience, both Vista and Mac Os are frustrating to deal with when it comes to dialup support since they don't report specific error messages that indicate where the problem lies, making it difficult to see whether it's a hardware issue or not. Of course, this probably isn't as big an issue outside of Australia; dialup, sadly, is far from being obsolete here.

Why is it that people still use dial-up down there? I remember we had some kind of problem with broadband here in Northern Italy back in '02 (even though close to nobody switched back to dial-up because phone rates are crazy here), but by the end of 2003, optical-fiber was installed in most cities and the issue was solved.

I've always been skeptical of the approach of the all-in-one system. They look sleek and all but it doesn't seem like there's as much potential to upgrade aside from RAM (I could be wrong, if so I stand corrected and would be interested to know what other components can be upgraded by the home user). There's also the issue of damage to the screen; if there's a problem there, the whole computer has to be looked at. You can't just replace hardware.

Considering hardware failure isn't exactly common in Macs, you can still upgrade pretty much everything. Processor, GPU, RAM. I know a guy who replaced the hard drive with a bigger one (it's stupid imo, since nowadays you can buy a 1 TB external-drive for less than 200$).

Although it isn't recommended you do it yourself (except for RAM), I think if you know your way around, you'll be fine.

I'd include the lack of games as a drawback (obviously that doesn't matter to non-gamers) and while I appreciate that there is a solution to the problem that takes less than an hour, the PC offers a gaming solution that can take less than five minutes. As you noted, the user shouldn't have to fix things so while PC has its drawbacks in this area, I think fiddling around to get a game to work on a Mac has to be considered a drawback as well.

Granted. I just wanted to point out you actually can play games on a Mac. Not everybody knows that.

Look, I'm not trying to paint Macs as expensive paperweights. I can see the positives but they're just not the system for me. As far as the ads go, I'm just a bit put off by the smugness of them. Apparently I'm not alone in that assessment, with this review expressing similar sentiments and this one doing so in a more aggressive and sarcastic manner (to that end, the first one states the case a bit more eloquently since the second contains its fair share of Mac bashing).

I completely understand that. I just get a little irritated when people think we buy Macs because they will supposedly make us look cool, without even knowing how much the system has to offer.

As for the ads, I think Cy pretty much answered for me. It's marketing, you try to get as much customers as you can, whatever it takes.,

Correct, but I was only refering to Mac's intent, mostly thru these ads, to exacerbate people's inherent laziness, and incite them to spend twice the price for a Mac rather than researching (googling) any issue they could have and most likely find a solution in less than 2 minutes.

The point is, the user shouldn't have to research any issues or solve anything. By doing this, it's the user that's working for the computer, not the computer working for the user, which is the way it's supposed to be.

In other words, the issues shouldn't be there in the first place.

[Andrew]

Why is it that people still use dial-up down there? I remember we had some kind of problem with broadband here in Northern Italy back in '02 (even though close to nobody switched back to dial-up because phone rates are crazy here), but by the end of 2003, optical-fiber was installed in most cities and the issue was solved.

In most cases, they have no choice. For the most part, Telstra (who own all the phone lines and exchanges) won't make the necessary upgrades so a lot of people simply can't get it. Some places can't even get wireless, though there have been government initiatives to change that. The other problem is the expense. A lot of people who could get one form of broadband or another balk at the current prices (which don't offer as much value for money compared to other developed countries) and stick it out as best they can on dialup.

[cyanide]

I mean, making a commercial about how intrusive and annoying UAC is in Vista? Takes 5 seconds to disable. How unsafe a PC generally is? Use Vista's default security tools, add AVG to that and you're set. How often a PC breaks down? At least, you won't need to replace the whole damn thing if it does, you'll most likely have to upgrade one or two components.

That's kind of the point. Users don't want to have to add programs to make it more safe, or figure out how to fix or deal with bugs, or cannot turn off UAC because they're not the administrator on their work computer (that's the case I have to deal with). UAC is a flawed concept because users 99% of the time presses "yes" because that's the action they wanted to make in the first place, while UAC should request administrator level decisions which deals with entering a password. Users want an OS that they can perform on to make their tasks more quicker and efficiently. They don't want to have to figure out which of the redundant 9 choices they could make to leave their computer.

I should point out though that I'm not a huge fan of all-in-one devices in general, which is why I think the iPhone is cool but am in no hurry to get one. I don't mind having a phone, digital camera and mp3 player rather than just the one device. If I'm relying on one gadget for all those needs, I lose everything if something happens to that one gadget. I know that might seem pretty technophobic, especially for someone in the industry, but I feel there's drawbacks to consolidating everything into one device as much as it can be an advantage.

I'm not a big fan of that either. I buy my printer and scanner separate. I use my cell phone and my digital camera separate. The reasons for that are power. There's more power in having one gadget that performs the way you want to rather than compromise one over the other. My display and my case are separate, but they are Apple products, and I'm really happy to say that I can upgrade anything on my Mac Pro the same way on a PC. I know you're addressing the iMac, but like Joe said, Mac hardware failures don't come by very often, and they get a new computer in the same cycle that PC users do anyway due to new technology ie: a new motherboard is required that obsoletes all the other parts.

[Andrew]

Well, in the case of iMacs I was thinking along the lines of damage moreso than hardware failure. Should the monitor somehow get damaged for example, that's the whole unit that needs to be looked at and repaired/replaced. I don't mind the old approach of a tower and a monitor, especially in the age of LCD monitors which don't take up as much space.

I see it as more of a concern with the iPhone though because even though Apple are making durable hardware when it comes to iPods and the like, you don't want to make a habit of bashing them around too much and phones are easily dropped, or lost (though I haven't lost a phone myself...yet). If you're relying on an iPhone as everything, you've lost it all if you drop the phone and it's damaged or it's stolen or lost.

Admittedly the Nokia I just got has a decent camera along with a media player but those are secondary features as far as I'm concerned. I still prefer to have a Canon digital camera and iPod nano to suit my needs rather than an all-in-one gadget. Or perhaps I'm just materialistic and like having more possessions.

[Alejandrov011]

- When I see my NES, my Sega Genesis and my Gameboy
- When I see my early PC games: NBA Live 98 - Sega Touring Car - Johnny Herberts GP xD
- When I see 8 years old boys with cellphones with camera, internet and all that shit
- When i don't see boys playing with little cars or girls with barbies and no one of this playing in parks or streets (things i have done)

[Cloudy]

- When I see 8 years old boys with cellphones with camera, internet and all that shit
- When i don't see boys playing with little cars or girls with barbies and no one of this playing in parks or streets (things i have done)

Sooo true. Kids don't play on the streets anymore!

[Alejandrov011]

I remember playing like 5 hours in the neighbour garage everyday in the summer...

Now there is only the marks of the ball in the walls...

Sad :S

[shadowgrin]

And I don't understand why you'd want your OS deciding what drivers to use for something and presumably not notifying you of the version.

Why would you care what drivers you're using? I'm okay as long as they work and they're updated as frequently as possible.

Because some people want the best drivers that will optimize the hardware they have. Just because the hardware works with the latest updated driver doesn't mean the it's the best suitable driver that maxes out your hardware's performance.

You are an ignorant person Joe...I hope you do get a virus and the only way to get rid of it is to send it off, have them burn your current Mac and then be forced to send you a new one.

Agree, I hope he does too. And use a PC to visit the forums.

Sooo true. Kids don't play on the streets anymore!

That's because people like foolmac and Michael Jackson are on the prowl.

[buddboy]

-Most parents give their kid a cell phone after 3 hours out of the womb
-You can access the internet, download music from iTunes, watch Blu-ray movies, and phone anyone in the world... from your car.
-Your car can speak 35 languages and can do advanced calculus... And parallel park by itself at the same time.
-Computers that won't fit in your pocket are no longer being manufactured
-You haven't actually met any of your best friends, just IM'ed or emailed
-You can sue airlines for selling you a ticket to New Jersey
-The daily murder rate in most large cities is more than the death toll of all the US wars combined
-When you wonder what to call the decade you're in, like 90's, 80's. (2000's?)
-When many sites have an ad called the 'fart button' that, disappointingly, does not ever fart in any way.
-It's no longer enough to be famous. You must be either a famous idiot, drunk, or whore.