US to Declare War on Iran, Good Friday

[Riot]

I guess I didn't realize the word "terrorist" was so conservative...

[el badman]

It's not, but associating it with anyone who has a beard and different religious beliefs tends to be...

[Riot]

It's not, but associating it with anyone who has a beard and different religious beliefs tends to be...

Am I don't think I am doing that. However, I do think people who strap bombs to little kids or blow up markets of innocent people are terrorists. I don't care if they think they are "Freedom Fighters" or doing the right thing. The people who we are fighting in Iraq are terrorists...they are attacking not only our troops but many innocenet Iraqi's. That is terrorism.

[el badman]

...they are attacking not only our troops but many innocenet Iraqi's. That is terrorism.

I agree on that part.
My point is, because they invaded their country and are seemingly stuck in this civil war, the US have contributed to what will likely be the next generations of terrorists, in Iraq and other parts of the world.
People whom you would have considered as "innocent" might eventually adhere to the "martyr" state of mind and decide to strike the invading forces, or other western countries that support them.
The original purpose, as depicted by the administration, was to make the world a safer place, yet considering this prospect, it feels like the exact opposite.
That's what angers me.

[Christopherson]

Riot, you've done a good job of trying to talk some sense into this misguided, misinformed soul, just remember some words by Mark Twain:

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers might not be able to tell the difference"

[el badman]

Riot, you've done a good job of trying to talk some sense into this misguided, misinformed soul, just remember some words by Mark Twain:

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers might not be able to tell the difference"

Okay, I guess I should be grateful then.
Thanks for your insightful contribution to this thread

[Riot]

Riot, you've done a good job of trying to talk some sense into this misguided, misinformed soul, just remember some words by Mark Twain:

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers might not be able to tell the difference"

Although I do not agree with his opinion I do not think he is a fool.

[Ty-Land]

Riot, you've done a good job of trying to talk some sense into this misguided, misinformed soul, just remember some words by Mark Twain:

"Never argue with a fool, onlookers might not be able to tell the difference"

Although I do not agree with his opinion I do not think he is a fool.

Nor is he a fool. Just because he holds a different opinion, no matter how wrong it is (not a judgement on my behalf, merely to make a point), does not necessitate a cheap shot like being called a 'fool'.

Perhaps Christopherson needs to critique his apparently guided, informed soul, and talk some sense to himself. Hopefully, this will allow him to learn how to gain an understanding from others perspective, and more so, hopefully gain the capacity to tolerate them.

[Christopherson]

It has nothing to do with me not agreeing with his viewpoints. It has everything to do with him doing a poor job of defending himself and attacking others without merit. I was just trying to remind Riot that you can't win an argument with someone who argues illogically.

[el badman]

you can't win an argument with someone who argues illogically.

Well, I'd like to know what was illogical about my arguments then.
Enlighten me man.

[Christopherson]

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You don't care what happens in Iraq? That is selfish.

Yeah, supporting this war and the absurd reasons behind it probably means that you care about Iraq...You should stop pretending that you do, that's not fooling anyone.
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We told the Iraqi's we'd give them democracy and freedom and to leave their country in shambles would be a mistake.


You didn't tell the Irakis any of that. You told them that they had dangerous weapons that they don't have. You removed their tyrant and replaced it with complete chaos where innocent people die everyday for nothing, where the basics like food, water, a roof..., barely exist anymore.
Stop misusing the concepts of "democracy" and "freedom", you didn't bring the Irakis any of that, and they didn't ask you to either.
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The only way we'll fail is if the weak-minded people here in America allow us to.


Way to live in denial...
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I agree riot- People against the war dont give a crap about anyone but the Americans.


Not sure what dimension you live in, but the vast majority of the world doesn't give a shit about the US but does value peace and diplomacy. They precisely care enough for Irak to be against the senseless, continuous killing of its citizens and destruction of its infrastructures.
I'm not American, and you better believe that I'm against this stupid war.
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What- we say were gonna help iraq then we jus leave them so they can be taken over by terrorists??


So how exactly are you helping Iraq right now? By destroying its people's entire way of life and contributing to what will be the next generations of jihadists?
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Riot, people will always criticise no matter what America does. It's classic insecurity.


Well, actually it's called common sense.

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He has had them in the past and used them on his own people. It was a legit reason to go war.


He's had them in the past because your beloved government sold them these weapons.
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I guess you don't consider flat out telling the Iraqi's that we were giving them freedom and safety and that we would help them rebuild their country so they can finally live some decent lives. I guess that doesn't count as telling them any of that. You are an idiot.


You must be fucking high or something. Safety and freedom?? Pull your head outta your ass for a sec and stop repeating the bullshit your hear on Fox News or from your parents. You don't know shit about shit, I'm not gonna take insults from a useless redneck brat.
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So despite what you think you know, the country is actually better in some aspects.


Then you should probably tell that to the Irakis, I'm not sure they noticed these improvements yet.
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That's funny because I seem to remember the Iraqi's LOVING our troops when we first came in back in 2003. They loved us and they wanted us here.


Once again, a brain can come in quite handy, and the News Corp affiliates are not the best way to get informed. They only showed you what you wanted to see.
Nobody was happy to see the US troops, they were not welcomed with flowers and kisses, deal with it.
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France and Russia were caught with their hands in the cookie jar illegally trading with Iraq. They were profiting from Saddam which is why they did not want him ousted.


Exactly like the US. The Iran-Irak war, does that ring a bell?
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We are trying to help them out whether you admit it or not. I don't really care what you think because thank god you aren't in any kind of leadership role. You'd suck at it.


How the fuck is that even relevant? Leadership??

I could quote every single sentence of your posts and show how retarded your views are, but I don't even know why I'm wasting my time on a douchebag like you. Might as well reason with a goddamn ape.

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First off, spell IRAQ fucking right. You nitwit.


In my language, Iraq is spelled with a "k". Not everything has to do with English spelling you stupid piece of shit.
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I know for a fact the troops were welcomed with open arms. The Iraqi's would even give our troops tea.


Oh you were there I guess? Or did you see that on iwannalickkarlrovesballs.com?
Do us all a favor and keep your ignorance to yourself.
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The ones who are Iraqi are probably doing it for money more than anything else.


What a moron
Money?? From whom?? They're doing it because the US have invaded their country and done everything to insult their faith and annihilate their way of life.
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I think you are the one who watches news and gets the filtered results and information. You should be the one checking your facts.


Yeah that must be that...
You're hopeless.
Don't forget your Junior Minutemen meeting tomorrow...oh wait, on Monday it's NRA, right?

Right there, in a nut shell.

[el badman]

That was pretty creative. I feel smarter already.

[Riot]

Even though many of you don't agree with my opinions or, probably more importantly, how I deliver them I think it's vitale to understand that we all have one common goal. Atleast I think, and hope, we do. That goal is to make America the best place it can be and to hold those responsible for not just the September 11th attacks but also for any attacks that have taken place, before or attack 9/11, on the innocent. It's just a shame that we live in a world with people like that. People who don't care who you are or what did you yesterday. All they care about is making sure you do literally nothing tomorrow for nothing more than the country you live in or the religion you believe in. It's just awful.

So my hope here for us all is to understand that even though our opinions differ and sometimes they even cause us to lose focus on the real problem at hand is that we never forget that to win this battle this War on Terrorism we have to be united. Not just as Americans but in the entire world. I know a lot of you here aren't Americans and don't feel the direct pain of the attacks in 2001 but you still have the perspective and understanding that it is a global problem and not just some American foreign policy propaganda. It's an issue that has to be confronted and ultimately...defeated. The end or the mission may seem out of reach, or impossible rather at the moment but to keep going strong, together united, is the course of action I feel we must take and that our leaders have chosen for us. And we can debate. And we can argue. And we can curse back and forth at each other but it does nothing to resolve the problem. I think a lot of Americans, myself included, wish terrorism would simply go away. Thinking if we climb back into our hole they will leave us alone. And maybe that would work but that's not how I was told America operates. I was always told that America would never back down. That we could defeat anything that comes our way. That we were the moral compass of the world. I obviously still believe that but now the realities of indifference...of opposition are starting to show itself to me. We are a nation divided. How can we win such a difficult war when the country itself can't even decide how to win, or rather should we win?

I'm simply rambling right now and if I go back and reread this post I'll probably be the death of me. But the point I was trying to make is we all have different opinions and we all believe in them whole heartedly. It really pains me when people say I'm uninformed or misguided or ignorant or whatever. I don't feel that way. I just see things in a different light than everyone else. I guess you could say I'm still living in that November 2001 frame of mind where the goal seemed to be clearly defined. I know the rest of you feel the same way in regards to the misguided, uninformed and ignorant comments, too. Nobody wants to be called stupid or naive or any of that junk. If we want to have a debate let's do it civilized. Let's do it so if nothing else we can say it was insightful. Nobody will change their mind but maybe they'll see why other people have the opinions they have and not the typical "what the hell is this guy smoking" reaction. Maybe we'll find out each person has different finish lines and that's why so many of us have what seems to be completely different opinions on the same topic. I don't know.

I'm probably different than most people...in fact I know I am. I want America to be the best. That isn't abnormal, that should be the norm, but I have the thinking that those who died via terrorism or whatever evil is out there will never be avenged until all of the evil is wiped off this earth. Only what 2,000+ died on 9/11? We've killed more than that since 2001 but I'm not "satisfied". And I know that's an awful word to use but...You know it's not a crusade. It's not political power hungry or anything like that. It's almost like it's our way to grieve. I'm still grieving from that day. I watch the footage on youtube all the time. I wish I didn't because I really am a wreck when I do watch it but I feel as though it's my duty to remind myself of how we all felt that day and the days after. To remind myself that there are people out there who are feeling this pain in the moment. Today is a new day so there must be a new terror attack. And it kills me. And the whole way I feel as though I can justify or have my life amount to anything is if I do my best to be apart of this national grieving. It sucks. But not I'm realy getting off point. I'm just going to end it like this lol. The post probably sucks really bad and when you are done reading it you're probably going to go want to shoot yourself, or probably me, but I'm not going to let this 10 minutes of my life go to waste. I'll publish it anyways. Thanks.

[el badman]

Good post.

I admire the fact that your ideas and views, no matter how different from mine, are based on compassion and a desire to make things better.
One thing troubles me though: because of the way it happened, I think it's sometimes easy for Americans to forget that 9/11 didn't necessarily affect the rest of the world as much as it affected them, or at least not in the same ways.
I was here when it happened and I know how much it dramatically changed and shaped people's state of mind, and how they realized the extent to which their "enemies" could strike their country and their way of life. However, I do believe that the administration's answer to this tragedy was mostly based on an attempt to exploit its people's fear and insecurity for its own advantage, rather than trying to fix things with pragmatism and maturity.
I know you certainly won't agree with that part, but given the amount of confusion and mysteries surrounding this terrible event (the 9/11 commission, officials and family members from Saudi Arabia being rushed outta the country before anyone else,...), I'm convinced that this government has been hiding and handling things inappropriately, thus lacking honesty towards its own people.

This tragedy shouldn't be forgotten by any means, but by playing with people's fear and patriotism, this administration has made sure that it would be in everyone's mind at all times, thus making it easier to go on crusades that Americans might have not accepted before this event, such as the Patriot Act and the war in Iraq. And each time the attention would be directed to the causes and consequences behind 9/11, questioning the government's responsability and reaction, and then to the actual reasons behing the war in Iraq, they would be quick to raise other touchy subjects, such as gay marriage or stem cell research. That just strikes me as a lack of transparency, and the will to keep critical things in the shade.
Now, here's my question: for the Americans here, do you guys think that you could be objective enough to "rank" the terrorism act of 9/11, in terms of atrocity, behind the genocides in Darfur, or in Rwanda 13 years ago, which both cost hundreds of thousands of lives? I'm not trying to be provocative, I just wanna understand how far your compassion and hope for global harmony go.

[Ty-Land]

It has nothing to do with me not agreeing with his viewpoints. It has everything to do with him doing a poor job of defending himself and attacking others without merit. I was just trying to remind Riot that you can't win an argument with someone who argues illogically.

Yes but I said Riot was doing just that and I didn't go ahead and call him a fool. I agree with arguments on both sides of the equation. Clearly you're position cluds your view and your judgement.

[Christopherson]

And my position would be? How do you know?

[Riot]

Now, here's my question: for the Americans here, do you guys think that you could be objective enough to "rank" the terrorism act of 9/11, in terms of atrocity, behind the genocides in Darfur, or in Rwanda 13 years ago, which both cost hundreds of thousands of lives? I'm not trying to be provocative, I just wanna understand how far your compassion and hope for global harmony go.

Honestly, I care more about 9/11 than those two examples you gave me. I think it is awful that those genocides are accuring and I would have no problem with American intervention in Darfur. I would be okay with that. However, 9/11 hit a lot closer to home and if you are asking me which one means more to me then it's obviously 9/11. If I had to choose between avenging the lives of the 2,300 or so 9/11 victims lives or the hundreds of thousands of those lost in the genocide and killings in Africa I would choose the 9/11 victims every time. It may not be the most humane thing or the most compassionate thing but it's the truth. It doesn't mean I don't care about those people, because I do, but I care more about my fellow Americans. The 9/11 attacks weren't just an attack on the victims that died but it was an attack on the whole country. The attacks were against average citizens. Average Americans. People like me and my family.

[Christopherson]

I would say the genocides are far worse atrcoties than what happened at 9/11, just because of sheer numbers and the total lack of respect for human life shown at the respective incidents. However, I don't think of the genocides the same way. Its like comparing apples to oranges in a sense. They are both fruit, they just come from a different kind of tree. The 9/11 attacks were a 1 day come from knowhere attack on the United States on a building symbolizing much of what the terrorists despised about our country. It's a totally different situaiton than the genocides, and I don't think comparing them does justice the victims of either travesty.


On a seperate note:

My beef with your stance el-badman was the fact that anytime riot made a good point, rather than counter it you spouted off some smart alicy witty response. That isn't debating or arguing for that matter. Its being a fool. Its one of my pet peeves. It doesn't take a very bright person to come up with stuff like:

Once again, a brain can come in quite handy,

Might as well reason with a goddamn ape.

Don't forget your Junior Minutemen meeting tomorrow...oh wait, on Monday it's NRA, right?

Or did you see that on iwannalickkarlrovesballs.com?

You had those three posts where you were acting like a fool in my opinion. The rest of your posts are fine. You seem like a logical, sensable person in them. Those three posts to me came off as a person who couldn't counter the points of another and decided to attack them instead.

[Ty-Land]

Now, here's my question: for the Americans here, do you guys think that you could be objective enough to "rank" the terrorism act of 9/11, in terms of atrocity, behind the genocides in Darfur, or in Rwanda 13 years ago, which both cost hundreds of thousands of lives? I'm not trying to be provocative, I just wanna understand how far your compassion and hope for global harmony go.

Honestly, I care more about 9/11 than those two examples you gave me. I think it is awful that those genocides are accuring and I would have no problem with American intervention in Darfur. I would be okay with that. However, 9/11 hit a lot closer to home and if you are asking me which one means more to me then it's obviously 9/11. If I had to choose between avenging the lives of the 2,300 or so 9/11 victims lives or the hundreds of thousands of those lost in the genocide and killings in Africa I would choose the 9/11 victims every time. It may not be the most humane thing or the most compassionate thing but it's the truth. It doesn't mean I don't care about those people, because I do, but I care more about my fellow Americans. The 9/11 attacks weren't just an attack on the victims that died but it was an attack on the whole country. The attacks were against average citizens. Average Americans. People like me and my family.

I think the genocide in Darfur is worse on a much greater scale.That is not saying 9/11 wasn't bad, it was a great tragedy. But the atrocities in Darfur are on such a scale that they are, in my mind, incomparable. The reasoning behind that is as follows: 9/11 could not, realistically, be prevented. I'm not saying it was bound to happen, but that it was incredibly unexpected and worse than people imagined any sort of terror attack on the U.S would be. Generally, it wasn't expected to happen before it did.

Darfur has happened before (see Holocaust, Armenian Genocide, Cambodia under Pol Pot, Rwanda, Kosovo etc.). The majority of nations around the world are signatories of the convention against genocide. Yet it still goes on, just as Rwanda did. Our governments are aware of it, the media is aware of it, yet nothing is happening. These are innocent people being caught up into a regional conflict. There is still something we can do about Darfur, but there is nothing left we can really do for the 9/11 victims other than help them rebuild their lives and use the justice system to punish the perpetrators.

[Matt]

use the justice system to punish the perpetrators.

by torturing "suspects" overseas but not charging them.

[Ty-Land]

use the justice system to punish the perpetrators.

by torturing "suspects" overseas but not charging them.

Well I wasn't trying to say they are doing the right way. Just that it should be a collective goal. In fact, I think they are making things worse the way they are handling things.

[el badman]

I know the comparison between a terrorist act and a genocide might not make much sense, but I was just curious to see how patriotism affects your way of thinking...

The 9/11 attacks were a 1 day come from knowhere attack on the United States on a building symbolizing much of what the terrorists despised about our country.

...but that's precisely my point. Which is more shameful in terms of humanity? The one that takes 2000 lives in one strike and that could have been prevented at one point, or the one that kills 1 million people within a few weeks or months, and which could definitely be prevented at any time during this period if the rich countries decided not to close their eyes on it?
While the causes and conditions of both events are indeed very different, I think it's important to look at the responses from the world's main forces, and notice that there's a genuine discrepancy here. By no means should the US be the only country to be concerned about these issues, but does anyone really think that we'll ever see the Congress debate about how many billions of dollars they should unlock for Sudan, Zimbabwe or Somalia. That would only happen...if they go to war in these countries...

My beef with your stance el-badman was the fact that anytime riot made a good point, rather than counter it you spouted off some smart alicy witty response. That isn't debating or arguing for that matter. Its being a fool. Its one of my pet peeves. It doesn't take a very bright person to come up with stuff like:

So I'm not entitled to think that he didn't make a good point? Basically, I failed to recognize the universal truth, right?
While these weren't my finest moments, I certainly don't like being called an idiot in the first place for only expressing and defending my opinions.
Besides agreeing with his views, I didn't really see you make any posts of your own explaining your position on this, so you're apparently only here to judge the debate, not participate in it.

[Christopherson]

so you're apparently only here to judge the debate, not participate in it.

Is that so wrong? Why is it such a problem for me to want everyone to have a fair shake? Just because I attacked your comments doesn't necisarily mean that I agree with Riot. The only thing I said is that, in my opinion, you didn't do a very good job of debating the issue. If you don't think he made a good point, then counter it. Tell him why he is wrong. Don't just call him an ape or ask him when his next NRA meeting is. Don't attack people because they don't believe in your universal conspiracy.

[Axel]

I agree with Ty-Land, and for the exact same reason.

9/11 was a horrible tragedy no question, but it isn't like it's an everday thing. These people fear for their lives everyday. There was really just an initial fear after the twin tower attacks. Then it subsided.

[el badman]

Is that so wrong? Why is it such a problem for me to want everyone to have a fair shake? Just because I attacked your comments doesn't necisarily mean that I agree with Riot.

Well, what is your position then?
It's a bit easy to come here, criticize me for my comments and calling me a fool while you're not even exposing your views to the community.
At least Riot explained his opinions in details, I'm still waiting for you to justify your posts and make a constructive contribution to this thread (even if it kinda went off-topic by now).