Truth

[bullsfan009]

I see what you mean, but what if we were convinced a sphere was actually a cube (i.e. Cy's math thingy)?

Well it wouldn't matter what we called the earth's shape, really- I was just saying that the earth has a shape (even if it was a cube), and I don't think that we can pin it down to absolutely prove it as being whatever we say it is. Because of relativity.

OO + OO = OOOO

OK, we all say this means: 2 + 2 = 4. Now, whatever number you assign to mean 2 and 4, those numbers will always stay the same. In other words, if instead of saying 2, you said H, and and instead of 4 you Z. H + H = Z. Whatever sounds you assign to mean 2 and 4, the answer is still the same. Do you get what I mean?

Well, I think there's a way to dispute that, but I don't know how But maybe that's the point! Even if something is so obvious, there will be people who still will not believe it. 2+2 may equal 4 every time, that may be a "truth," but it's still possible that the entire world could be divided between belief that 2+2=4 and 2+2=5 somehow.

It's like slavery- there was a time when it was the normal thing in America, accepted as OK by most of the people. Everyone thought 2+2=5. But slavery is wrong, the majority of the people were wrong. Who holds the truth, though? What if things never changed? Does 2+2 ever equal 5, in the sense you were talking about, H Rock? (OO + OO = OOOO) IMO, no way-

[cyanide]

OO + OO = 12

OO n OO t TkP

OO & OO @ ++

Any one of those could be assigned. The + sign could be an 'n' or an '&' but we've already assigned '+' to mean 'add' or 'plus'

[bullsfan009]

Here is my take on "truth" at this point & time in my life & thinking.

Truth in our world is relative (maybe completely, but at least mostly), despite our wishes to have certainty and to feel justified/be right in our actions. If there is really truth, it would have to be outside of the relative time & space that we live in and are confined to.

I believe there is Truth out there. In the physical realm, I feel that there are laws of nature, and actualities of math, science, etc. Just as we are real, there are very real (though indescribable) entities like love too. Albert Einstein said, "It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure."

Morally, it’s my opinion that good & evil are real, and some things are wrong, no matter if you’re caught or not, and no matter what society’s take on it is. Like rape- to me it’s just WRONG, and I don’t care if the entire world & myself included are convinced otherwise, it’s still wrong. It’s a violation, an abomination, just an ugly, ugly thing.

But isn’t calling something a “violation,” “abomination,” and “ugly” all just relative truths of my own opinion? Yes. What would make rape truly wrong would be if it was held to be wrong OUTSIDE of our world, above & beyond it, in an eternal + absolute sense.

For me, this is where God comes in. In the Old Testament, God told Moses to refer to Him as “I am.” And God said, lemme clarify by saying it's also “I am that I am.” What he’s saying is that he’s not because of other people/hereditary circumstances/life experiences like we are, he’s not dependent upon certain factors, or assumptions, or laws of the world. He just IS. He’s referred to as “the Alpha and the Omega,” the start and the finish.

So the belief that God exists outside of our time & space would make him a canidate to be a judge of Truth, since he's not caught up in our relativity. But it goes further. Jesus said, "I am the Truth."

But what the %*@# does that MEAN? This is my view right now:

-->In order to know Truth, you have to know God, who IS Truth. Jesus said this amazing statement:

“...a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.”

Everyone wants to believe that they are doing the right thing. But how do you really know that it's right? Jesus was showing that for those who will even go so far to justify themselves by saying that they are right by God, unless they KNOW God, then it's like Einstein said:

"Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods."


So now, the BIG question to ask is, "What does it mean to KNOW God? How do you do that?" Well, I'm not going to even pretend to know something like that. But I think Cable Guy was onto something:

There is no absolute TRUTH in the world, someone will always find fault with something (i.e. the KKK and WWII, if I remember my teacher correctly). The thing that we call TRUTH is actually just FAITH, we BELIEVE that it's 'TRUE'.

A repeated message of the Bible is "The righteous shall live by faith."
Romans 1:17 states, "For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

We're all living by faith in whatever we believe in. I believe that God = Truth, so believing in God is the way to know Truth.


But this is still very hard to deal with. Say God tells you something, lets you in on a Truth. How can someone else know that you're not just a crazy man? I don't know, maybe it's inevitable that the real Truth will be spread or something like that, but I just don't know...

But I think that Cy was onto something too!

The only truth that I can see is in a few intangibles, such as love, for example.

Another name for God according to the Bible is LOVE!!! Maybe that’s what you’ve got to know! Maybe love, the bridge between God and us, paves the road to truth!?!


I don't know, my head's spinning... What do you all think about all this???

[cyanide]

I like it when I hear "God is love" because that shows that God is beyond a white-bearded man, but actually a concept. Universal truths, I can't remember who mentioned them, it might be C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity, mentioned a short list of universal truths. I know love is one of them, and I think a couple more are trust and life, among others.

[Cable]

That's pretty much what I was trying to say, except I don't have extensive Bible knowledge. If you don't mind me asking bullsfan, how/why do you know so much about the Bible?

[[Q]]

oooooh no don't ask him about the Bible... we've been over this before just search for the "religious views" thread in here.

[macca33]

who gives a fuck about truth????

[Drex]

The people who took the time to post in this thread. If you don't give a fuck about it, then we don't give a fuck about you.

[macca33]

fair enough

[mercyless41]

there is the truth, there is ur personal truth, there is the majority truth and the scientific truth. if u can abstract urself from ur culture, ur society, ur feelings, ur education, and think objectively and logically u can reach the truth. but we warned, truth hurts! thats why humanity works more on the majority truth than in real truth.

[bullsfan009]

That's pretty much what I was trying to say, except I don't have extensive Bible knowledge. If you don't mind me asking bullsfan, how/why do you know so much about the Bible?

I've been raised in a Christian household, and we've always talked about God etc. But I don't actually know that much...I've never read the Bible in its entirety. Plus, there's way more to God than is contained in the Bible IMO...I'm just trying to put together things I've been learning. I like what Ghandi said: "I have nothing new to teach the world. Truth and Non-violence are as old as the hills."

I just really love thinking & talking about these kinds of subjects, because I see them as the most important (& most rewarding) of anything else.

But I'll tell you, it's amazing...whenever I'm seeking to find about about something, and try to focus like how mercyless described here:

there is the truth, there is ur personal truth, there is the majority truth and the scientific truth. if u can abstract urself from ur culture, ur society, ur feelings, ur education, and think objectively and logically u can reach the truth. but we warned, truth hurts! thats why humanity works more on the majority truth than in real truth.

...then I always run across quotes on the internet, sermons from the library, movies, books, etc. that help me understand things better.

If you've got your heart centered on God, love, and being as objective as you can, I really believe in Jesus's saying, "He who seeks shall find."

I like it when I hear "God is love" because that shows that God is beyond a white-bearded man, but actually a concept.

Yeah me too...it makes it so you can apply it to life...love is something we all can relate to (hopefully!)

[shadowgrin]

You don't mess with Jesus.

Ok, so I spammed. This is the Nth time that I have seen another religious debacle/debate thread in such a short period of time. It won't end.

[H Rock]

Truth in our world is relative (maybe completely, but at least mostly), despite our wishes to have certainty and to feel justified/be right in our actions. If there is really truth, it would have to be outside of the relative time & space that we live in and are confined to.

Actually, as a Christian, I disagree with that. For example, God said that thou shalt not commit adultery. That is a truth. Obviously, for a non-Christian, that wouldn't be so, but for a Christian, that is a truth. At least it should be.

[cyanide]

Truth in our world is relative (maybe completely, but at least mostly), despite our wishes to have certainty and to feel justified/be right in our actions. If there is really truth, it would have to be outside of the relative time & space that we live in and are confined to.

Actually, as a Christian, I disagree with that. For example, God said that thou shalt not commit adultery. That is a truth. Obviously, for a non-Christian, that wouldn't be so, but for a Christian, that is a truth. At least it should be.

That's his point, though. Truth is relative, and you as a Christian disagree with adultery, and that's your belief; however, others who engage in adultery and agree with it for reasons such as sexual diversity and enrichment or whatever. Personally, I disagree with adultery 100%, but that doesn't make it a truth if there are others who are happy with it.

[bullsfan009]

H Rock- I also believe that adultery=bad, but it is just my belief, like what Cyanide is saying. But somebody else may have a completely different view- it's God's view of adultery that makes up the Truth about it.

And also as a Christian, I believe from the 10 Commandments that God doesn't like it at all. But I can't judge a person, either- look at David, he committed adultery with Bathsheba but God ended up forgiving him.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't have said anything to David- no, I hope that I would have had the guts to tell him to his face that he was breaking a very important commandment (actually 2 with him having Bathsheba's husband killed). But God alone is the bearer of Truth and Judgement.

Which is a great thing when you think about it! "God is just," "God is loving," etc...better him than me!

[H Rock]

That's his point, though. Truth is relative, and you as a Christian disagree with adultery, and that's your belief; however, others who engage in adultery and agree with it for reasons such as sexual diversity and enrichment or whatever. Personally, I disagree with adultery 100%, but that doesn't make it a truth if there are others who are happy with it.

Tell me, if the statement "Murder is wrong" is considered a belief, where would the world be now? If truth is relative, then why do we have laws, because laws need to be true to be effective.

[cyanide]

Laws aren't always true and effective. In the case of "do not murder," sure it's effective, since death is always a terrible thing, but that kind of thing was very common hundreds and thousands of years ago as a means to survive or in self-defense. Now we have death row, yay.

[bullsfan009]

Tell me, if the statement "Murder is wrong" is considered a belief, where would the world be now? If truth is relative, then why do we have laws, because laws need to be true to be effective.

Slavery used to be legal, and I'm sure many other things that most people today consider to be bad were in some places at some time legal.

Legal systems are based on majority opinions (bills getting voted on and passed in government). The US's laws are based on the Constitution, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is based a lot on the Bible. "We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the persuit of Happiness."

However, people's interpretations of the laws in the Bible make it necessary to have the courts. Like what Cy just said about murder & the death penalty. It says, "Thou shalt not kill," but does that apply in self-defense? in wartime? for animals and/or nature? I don't know...I think it's a great system overall, but you've just got to realize that it's human, and thus prone to error. IMO, God is the ultimate judge.

Martin Luther King said, "It may even be true that the law can't make a man love me, but it can restrain him from lynching me, and I think that's pretty important also."

[DaTruth36]

Kobe never raped anyone, if thats what you're talking about.

You would know how? Ah, yes, you're a Kobe fan.

[koberulz]

at least i dont post a new thread every time he scores

[j.23]

Kobe never raped anyone, if thats what you're talking about.

You would know how? Ah, yes, you're a Kobe fan.

quit life. at least he doesn't jizz his pants everytime some overrated rook pulls off a non-contested dunk

OMG GERALD GREEN JUST PULLED OFF A WINDMILL WITH THE CELTS BEING UP BY 10 AND NO ONE GUARDING HIM! BOY OH BOY I'M GONNA JERK OFF NOW AND SPREAD MY MAN JUICE ALL OVER MYSELF BECAUSE IM EXCITED!

[2pac]

ok 2+2=4 but if u think 2 is w and 4 is ron's mom then it would be: w+w=ron's mom! that actuly makes sense!

[MacGuyver]

was judas telling the truth?

[CuhRazy]

yes

[magius]

if your'e interested in this kind of stuff take critical thinking or philosophy in college. there are few things which are definitely "true," math being one example. everything else is a process of falsification, meaning to be less false rather than more true. That is the basis of every theory (especially in science).... ever. So though what you say can never be definitively true, that is not to say that everyone's opinions is equal to another. That is pc bullshit. Your opinion is only as good as the reasons that back it, and your reason is based on a process of falsification; one may not know what is true, but one does know what is false. So it depends on your definition of truth. If you are searching for definitive, uncompromising truth - yes that does exist, though in very small quantities. But the general consensus of what is true is basically that it has not yet been proven false.