The Debate Thread: Taxes (and beyond...)

[benji]

There is nothing "today" that is different from history, government have always sought to impose taxes because it gives them power and helps them divide populations to increase their power. It's the entire point of government.

What is the problem with capitalism? Are you talking about an actual free market or the state run "capitalism" we have in reality? I'm not sure a society where the state decides the prices of things and picks and chooses winners is really "capitalism" but that's me.

Taxation is a massive problem. The sheer amount of waste the current tax regime when combined with the programs to redistribute that income of every nation in the world creates is insane.

The federal government of the U.S. spends $3.8 trillion a year. That's not even counting what the states and local entities spend. All while effective tax rates are closer to 50% or more. The federal government of the U.S. has claimed 900+% of all GDP for the rest of the century. People scream that taxes need to be raised even more in order to pay for everything when there's a complete disconnect between impact on the ground and tax consumption because of that massive waste as poverty rates, education, etc. have all stagnated or gone backwards.

You could eliminate the entire tax regime of every nation and every single federal government program, put in place a flat tax of 15-18% with no deductions and eliminate the silly income distinctions, and give every household in the nation $30,000 (through a prebate). And spend LESS. And every single person would be better off because they don't have to waste resources anymore doing taxes. Not only that but every single person in the nation would see a massive tax decrease because anyone with a job is already paying over 15% of their income in taxes. Even people on minimum wage. And getting absolutely nothing in return for it.

You can easily make this a government run insurance-type fee system. You pay 15% of your yearly income, you're guaranteed to have at least $30,000 every year. Want to pay another 1% for basic environmental regulations, just check the box and pay it on the bill. You want to spend another 5% on a massive military, go ahead. You want to give 2% to public schools, fine go ahead, but you can also just spend that on your private schools too. If you don't agree to this, you don't get the prebate but you get anything the others are paying for to have for everyone. If the program is only for those who pay, you'll get a bill.

Instead of a financially and politically destructive series of entitlement programs that create an elite class of rulers who decide who lives and dies and uses that authority to further its own aims you would have actual "social insurance" and almost nobody would have a job whose key focus is to see how much of other peoples stuff they can take.

But we'd never do that because there's no power in it. And if you can't wield power over others what's the point?

[koberulz]

I don't have the slightest clue what it costs to run a military and police force, so I can't really give a dollar figure.

It costs whatever they've got plus whatever they don't have.

Well yeah, there is that. People with more knowledge of the field than I might be able to come up with some sort of system to keep it in check, but I don't really know enough about it to do so.

The government makes money every single day, it prints the money and controls the supply.

Not that it should be doing that either.

Ah, so there's no possible situation where people will willingly pay into a system they may not benefit from more than anyone else.

Probably not, and certainly not equally. However, the benefits must exist equally. 14th amendment and all that.

[benji]

Probably not

Odd, because insurance has existed for millennia. And the modern form of it for centuries.

[koberulz]

But it's easier to act on on an individual basis. If you get assaulted, and haven't paid law insurance, it's still within the best interests of those that have paid law insurance that the offender be arrested.

Even back when the fire departments were run by insurance companies, they'd put out the fires of the uninsured to prevent them from spreading to the houses of the insured.