The Debate Thread: Voting

thank you benji! you had a 95% accuracy rate there! the one thing you didnt get right was about the russian mennonites. They were actually based in the ukraine. there are stories just now coming from those few who were able to survive, even though they went into persecution camps. one mennonite farmer was sent to a camp and never heard from again simply because he actually won an award for being the best farmer in the area. only one of his daughters survived.

I think ideally it'd be voting only for the good. As I offered Andrew, Hitler or Stalin?

Stalin. I like his mustache.

Unless you think not having to comply with stupid regulations is "freeloading."

Yup, that was what I was thinking, assuming that such regulations aren't stupid.

One could be a strict pacifist who sticks to their principles even in the most horrid of situations if they believe a violation of those principles to be the worst possible thing. Especially if they feel it will have ramifications for the next life or after life. This argument is one where puttin is not being insane like normal, strict to his beliefs but I don't see the normal logical failings.

But I wanted putt to think and answer it himself.

One could be a strict pacifist who sticks to their principles even in the most horrid of situations if they believe a violation of those principles to be the worst possible thing. Especially if they feel it will have ramifications for the next life or after life. This argument is one where puttin is not being insane like normal, strict to his beliefs but I don't see the normal logical failings.

But I wanted putt to think and answer it himself.

he actually answered it perfectly.

remember this event? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_school_shooting
the people of america were shocked by the response of the Amish.

That's just sad. I hate you puttin for showing me that.

If people were rhetorically accountable for their vote, could they vote in racists, people who will steal from others, homophobes, etc. without the shield of having their opinion be hidden? This is one of the arguments the pro-Prop 8 people made in Cali, that a revealing of the signatures would create pressures against them so that they could no longer work to ban gay marriage.

Dunno, should we let candidates hold voters at gunpoint? I don't like the idea of pressuring voters, explicitly or implicitly.

Another good thing about compulsory voting is that it forces everyone to at least get attention of the issues leading up to the election and it forces them to partake.

It doesn't necessarily create understanding of the issues though, especially the way both parties twist the facts and blow things out of proportion as they sling mud back and forth.

Compulsory voting has no impact on the awareness of issues/policies. People who don't care aren't suddenly going to start caring just because they have to vote, the reason being that they can throw their vote away either by not filling out the ballot (like Mark Latham) or voting for the Sex Party or someone stupid like that (in the past I would've said the Greens but voting for them is a vote for Labor anyway so it's sort of pointless).

But Jae didn't you read this vomit-inducing post?

I believe it is important for compulsory voting. This is my opinion - good government requires accountability to the electorate. The voters are one of the most important parts of the democracy process because they hold Government accountable. Another good thing about compulsory voting is that it forces everyone to at least get attention of the issues leading up to the election and it forces them to partake. Every vote does matter here because there are a lot of swinging voters, I think that what we have in Australia is one of the best systems in the world because bad governments actually get punished.

It's like we don't even need Paul23 to come back!

Stalin. I like his mustache.

Not making a serious point, just noting that Stalin was worse than Hitler. I mean, this shouldn't be shadow's title or anything, or some kind of letter he should wear.

Yup, that was what I was thinking, assuming that such regulations aren't stupid.

Well, I think they are stupid, but the fact that following them would completely eliminate the way of life of these people is more than enough for me.

That said. You know me, undermining the logic of religion is something I do on here in a manner that is likely unmatched, but my respect for it is very high. And in this case I do have to side with them.

But I wanted putt to think and answer it himself.

Why pick on the dysfunctional when someone is willing to stand up for them?

I mostly keed, when should I be naked by?

thank you benji! you had a 95% accuracy rate there! the one thing you didnt get right was about the russian mennonites. They were actually based in the ukraine. there are stories just now coming from those few who were able to survive, even though they went into persecution camps. one mennonite farmer was sent to a camp and never heard from again simply because he actually won an award for being the best farmer in the area. only one of his daughters survived.

I admit I didn't investigate it fully, I just skimmed the Wiki, but I should note that I don't think collectivism would have worked even if the Mennonites were involved. Also, it's not shocking he was punished for achieving, that's kinda the point.

Dunno, should we let candidates hold voters at gunpoint? I don't like the idea of pressuring voters, explicitly or implicitly.

You have to prove two things:
1. They aren't already.
2. That an public vote system wouldn't restrict the "secret" authority of the political actors.

1. They aren't already.

Can't say I've noticed it happening. Unnoticeable pressure is no pressure, really.

2. That an public vote system wouldn't restrict the "secret" authority of the political actors.

What?

Why pick on the dysfunctional when someone is willing to stand up for them?

You are a credit to your nation and humanity itself. You are a vanguard to the helpless, like your dear President Obama. God Bless Your Soul.
[/joy]

obama a vangaurd to the helpless? i would contend he wants to make us all slaves to the government.

What did he ever do to you Mennonites and make such an accusation? It's not like you voted for him or the other candidates.

i didnt vote for him, however there is a group of amish in pa that do vote. and they voted for obama.

its not what he is doing to us in particular but what he is doing to the nation. i really do not think its fair for the government to force me to buy insurance.
here is an example why.
my mom recently got heat stroke. she went into the hospital. the bills are coming in now. they are lower because she does not have insurance than it would be for someone with insurance. Now this hospital has a special plan for those with low incomes as well. if you can prove to their satisfaction that you cannot pay the bill in a timely manner due to not having a job they will knock even more off the bill. On top of all this Our church will take an offering for her to help pay the final bill.
Another example.
My sister just had to get her wisdom teeth cut out. The bill will be very high. however the church raised an offering BEFORE the surgery and we were given 2k! i should mention our church has only about 20 families and not everyone was there that night.


I really do not want to buy insurance, but if i dont i will be placed on the national plan or lose my tax return and pay more taxes! Oh and btw i have never been to the hospital, except to see my mom when she got heat stroke, since mom and I left the hospital when i was 3 days old. and yet i will be forced to buy insurance! why?

Because otherwise the system would collapse faster when all the employers dump insurance and force the employees into the exchanges since the insurance companies are now forced to accept and pay for people no matter pre-existing conditions.

I think the fines are probably too low to prevent people from gaming the system anyway since the fines have to be higher than the cost of insurance and since premiums are going to skyrocket that's not going to happen.

It's the damn American people's fault anyway since those flyover idiots were happy with their insurance and medical care and that's not a way to get them into a government-run system so we need to ruin their private system so they'll finally accept our government-run castor oil.

How else do you expect us enlightened classes to control every aspect of their lives if you don't let us have control over their health? It's like you don't want us to have a massive permanent embedded constituency all in the name of some silly outdated idea of "freedom" or "choice" or "liberties."

Another good thing about compulsory voting is that it forces everyone to at least get attention of the issues leading up to the election and it forces them to partake.

It doesn't necessarily create understanding of the issues though, especially the way both parties twist the facts and blow things out of proportion as they sling mud back and forth.

Yeah, I understand that. That's why more should be taught and the awareness created in primary/high schooling.

Compulsory voting has no impact on the awareness of issues/policies. People who don't care aren't suddenly going to start caring just because they have to vote, the reason being that they can throw their vote away either by not filling out the ballot (like Mark Latham) or voting for the Sex Party or someone stupid like that (in the past I would've said the Greens but voting for them is a vote for Labor anyway so it's sort of pointless).

It's not going to work an impact on the whole population but I think it throws a net over a big enough proportion of the population. And at least you recognize where the Greens direct their preferences.

Well, you can teach kids about how electorates work and everything. You're probably not going to educate them on current issues (since schools are supposed to be apolitical) nor is there going to be a subject "How to recognise a politician's bullshit".

Yeah, I think more education on the composition of government and how it all works with the house of reps, the senate, the constitution of Australia. But imagine the government trying to push it through. They'd lose the next election because the opposition would label it as propaganda. You can't win can you?

I suppose you'd at least be sending people to the polls who had an idea of how the system worked. Politicians and their spin doctors are always going to prey on the public's needs, fears and desperation though.

I suppose you'd at least be sending people to the polls who had an idea of how the system worked. Politicians and their spin doctors are always going to prey on the public's needs, fears and desperation though.

Don't forget the media. They're the most powerful!