Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:15 am
If you 2 (Ben & Yohance) continue with this, I'll be forced to close the thread, that's a warning.
Oh, lol. I forgot I can't do that
Oh, lol. I forgot I can't do that
Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:16 am
Why can't it all be peace and love ? 
Why do we have to be 2 separate places...org vs. NLSC...Maybe this is because of things that have happened in the past, but seriously...cant these issues be resolved?
Why do we have to be 2 separate places...org vs. NLSC...Maybe this is because of things that have happened in the past, but seriously...cant these issues be resolved?
Last edited by Jackal on Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:27 am
i must admit..Ben presents his comments properly(without insults) and it causes me to think. This isn't an argument...its a valid suggestions discussion...it remains to be seen what Andrew thinks.
Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:58 pm
Psycho Jackal wrote:Why can't it all be peace and love ?
They're always going to be two seperate sites, no matter how the diplomatic climate. The NBA Live community would be pretty boring with only one site.
When it comes to moderators, I prefer to appoint them myself, sometimes at the suggestion of forum veterans. Although I consider offers from forum members, I try to look for members who I believe will do a good job.
This is not a unique approach. I have visited other forums where the admins prefer to select moderators based on their own judgement, rather than through election or application. Now, applications are still welcome, but it's still up to me to make that decision. That is one of my responsibilities as forum admin. If I'm not sure, I will discuss it with Yohance or perhaps one of the forum regulars.
I fail to see how this method is faulty, or unfair. I'm interested to hear how it is.
Ben wrote:Thug, read what you write. You say I'm implying a "dictatorship", but you are when you say stuff like that. I know what you mean, but the ay you say it is just...gah...it gets under my skin. I mean "the affairs of the state are of no concern to the proletariat" sounds very similar to that to me and probably others.
I know you're addressing Yohance here, but it concerns me as well.
I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with the sentiment. Australia is not a communist country, but we are not told about everything that happens in parliament. Many discussions are behind closed doors, there are conversations we do not hear. Of course we are kept informed of some things. But day-to-day issues generally go unheralded.
Of course the way the forum is run is of great concern to the members. Without members, it would be a pretty quiet forum. But I don't think all 3800+ members need to be involved in the administration of the forum. Now, if there's a problem with the administration of the forum, yes, it's fair enough to raise the issue. It is not inappropriate for me to then discuss the matter privately with the individuals concerned.
Again, I'm not unique in preferring to select moderators based on my own judgement rather than election or offers from members. Some discussions are kept behind closed doors. If you want to make political analogies, communism isn't the only social structure that shares such traits.
Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:07 pm
I've just realised that EGarrett is no longer a moderator (now I understand the "reinstate EGarrett" in Ben's sig). Can someone explain me what happened ?
Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:25 pm
I've read this thread and no one here has the slightest idea what happened. The issue has also been resolved. PM me and I can give you a real idea instead of this public gossiping.
You may have seen it that way. I saw it differently. Regardless, this has nothing to do with you or that. Don't mislead people.
Yohance wrote:I tried to warn EG about this but he snuffed my words as someone being conceited and acting big just cause i've been here longer than him. What's the result?..he had to be dealt with. Thats just how it is....
You may have seen it that way. I saw it differently. Regardless, this has nothing to do with you or that. Don't mislead people.
Tue Dec 02, 2003 11:06 pm
I know exactly what caused it...it was your brazen pm to Andrew...which he saw as being very direspectful. It's one thing to answer my messages to you in any way you like...but being that andrew is this webmaster..things should go about a little differently. However, it doesn't really matter what happened...and it shouldn't really be discussed in public. If you want to go about answering personal messages spreading the word about it..its up to you.
Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:59 am
However, it doesn't really matter what happened...and it shouldn't really be discussed in public. If you want to go about answering personal messages spreading the word about it..its up to you.
You took it upon yourself to further publicize the issue.
I also strongly suggest you talk to Andrew...who I actually resolved the real situation with...before you continue publicly criticizing me.
Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:51 am
Andrew wrote:I see where you're coming from, but I disagree with the sentiment. Australia is not a communist country, but we are not told about everything that happens in parliament.
But you can look it all up in the public record, can you not? Not being told and not being able to know is different.
I fail to see how this method is faulty, or unfair. I'm interested to hear how it is.
How is it fair to have one person, or a small group of people that are not subject to anyone deciding for everyone?
But I don't think all 3800+ members need to be involved in the administration of the forum.
I never said they needed to be. All 300 million people in the United States don't vote, quite a few don't. However, they have the ability to. You could argue that this area is the equal, but it is not if...
Now, if there's a problem with the administration of the forum, yes, it's fair enough to raise the issue. It is not inappropriate for me to then discuss the matter privately with the individuals concerned
Someone raises an issue, you deal with privately. Not the equivalent.
Again, I'm not unique in preferring to select moderators based on my own judgement rather than election or offers from members.
[Insert Murderer] isn't unique in killing someone, that doesn't make it right.
Some discussions are kept behind closed doors. If you want to make political analogies, communism isn't the only social structure that shares such traits.
Well, if you simplify the similarities to just that, no, Communism isn't the only political system the NLSC parallels.
I've read this thread and no one here has the slightest idea what happened.
Sorry about that, I sorta filled in the blanks myself.
It's one thing to answer my messages to you in any way you like...but being that andrew is this webmaster..things should go about a little differently.
"Everyone is equal, just some are more equal than others."
Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:57 am
Ben wrote:How is it fair to have one person, or a small group of people that are not subject to anyone deciding for everyone?
Everything works according to a system, Ben. There is a system to this site, if someone doesn't like the system on this site, they are free to join any other site. If people had a problem, they could just up and leave.
Most of us don't have a problem with Andrew appointing a Moderator, that's his responsibility as the forum's Administrator.
Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:34 pm
This thread really absorbed me from the get-go. Alright Ben, let's get to it ...
Here's a fun little excerpt from the Administrators subpoint of nbalive.org's Constitution:
After reading your many criticisms of Andrew, Yohance, and the NLSC, you could imagine my surprise when I stumbled upon this little gem in your own bi-laws. Ben, if you truly view your work as a crusader for the cyber-oppressed (which is hilarious in itself), and if you truly find minority rule unfair, then I have a great starting point for your endeavor: http://www.nbalive.org. The fact that you've repeatedly castigated the NLSC higher-ups for practicing the same system that you've established on your website is laughable. And no matter how hard you try to posture yourself as some free-thinking defender of equal rights, remember: you're ultimately doing the exact same thing that goes on here. Period. That said, I'm not here to blame Andrew, Yohance, or you, for the alleged "stagnation of the Community." Speaking of ...
I guess the first thing I need to ask here is: How are we being "held back?" The community’s growing, last I checked, and the mere existence of the NLSC forum has facilitated (sometimes) engaging discussion and (inherently) a growing interest in the NBA Live series. So pending your definition of "holding us back," I don't think your perception of oppressive elitism is really an issue, especially with the rapidly increasing number of registered users at the NLSC forum.
Since you acknowledge the existence of "an elitist class in the community," how can you simultaneously rely on an activist majority? Look, I think it's admirable of you to expect more of us (assuming that is your true resolve, and I hope that it is), but I think you're merely sensationalizing what you perceive to be a problem. You're pissed because a moderator lost his job, a travesty so great in nature that you've likened Andrew and Yohance to the Politburo. Anyway, because I don’t know the full details surrounding EGarrett’s dismissal, my opinions on the matter shall be equally restricted. I will say this, though: I've been coming here for a little over a year now, always reading through the posts of (who I feel are) relevant forum users, and in my thirteen months, I've generally found Andrew to be judicious, open-minded, and eager to improve the NLSC. Think about it. He posts all the time (so I'd say he's pretty well in touch with the forum users -- it's not as though he's governing from afar), he's polled users for suggestions to make the forum better (as further research on your part would indicate), and finally, he, by his own admission, welcomes member input to the moderator position (another fact you've been quick to overlook). And isn't this the collective root of your criticisms? Yet there are guys like you, Ben, who probably got just a little too much enjoyment from participating in Model United Nations in high school. And hey, that's fine. I'm not here to throw insults around. But it's another thing entirely to come here, claiming to "feel for the people," raving about oppression while you arrogantly toast to your own "Great Experiment," which, last I checked, submitted to the same premise of "Administrators have final say" that you take issue with here.
You're making a civil rights struggle out of small potatoes, Ben. You're no freedom fighter.
How is it fair to have one person, or a small group of people that are not subject to anyone deciding for everyone?
Here's a fun little excerpt from the Administrators subpoint of nbalive.org's Constitution:
With the power to approve or reject any measure presented, they have final say for all forum decisions.
After reading your many criticisms of Andrew, Yohance, and the NLSC, you could imagine my surprise when I stumbled upon this little gem in your own bi-laws. Ben, if you truly view your work as a crusader for the cyber-oppressed (which is hilarious in itself), and if you truly find minority rule unfair, then I have a great starting point for your endeavor: http://www.nbalive.org. The fact that you've repeatedly castigated the NLSC higher-ups for practicing the same system that you've established on your website is laughable. And no matter how hard you try to posture yourself as some free-thinking defender of equal rights, remember: you're ultimately doing the exact same thing that goes on here. Period. That said, I'm not here to blame Andrew, Yohance, or you, for the alleged "stagnation of the Community." Speaking of ...
I see the elitist ideals as holding us back, because we are often thinking only we know what's best.
I guess the first thing I need to ask here is: How are we being "held back?" The community’s growing, last I checked, and the mere existence of the NLSC forum has facilitated (sometimes) engaging discussion and (inherently) a growing interest in the NBA Live series. So pending your definition of "holding us back," I don't think your perception of oppressive elitism is really an issue, especially with the rapidly increasing number of registered users at the NLSC forum.
I stressed that favoritism exists and does not get punishment. I did that because I want the moderators to be subject to the users, so if they're doing things people don't like, they will lose their job because of the majority, not a minority.
Since you acknowledge the existence of "an elitist class in the community," how can you simultaneously rely on an activist majority? Look, I think it's admirable of you to expect more of us (assuming that is your true resolve, and I hope that it is), but I think you're merely sensationalizing what you perceive to be a problem. You're pissed because a moderator lost his job, a travesty so great in nature that you've likened Andrew and Yohance to the Politburo. Anyway, because I don’t know the full details surrounding EGarrett’s dismissal, my opinions on the matter shall be equally restricted. I will say this, though: I've been coming here for a little over a year now, always reading through the posts of (who I feel are) relevant forum users, and in my thirteen months, I've generally found Andrew to be judicious, open-minded, and eager to improve the NLSC. Think about it. He posts all the time (so I'd say he's pretty well in touch with the forum users -- it's not as though he's governing from afar), he's polled users for suggestions to make the forum better (as further research on your part would indicate), and finally, he, by his own admission, welcomes member input to the moderator position (another fact you've been quick to overlook). And isn't this the collective root of your criticisms? Yet there are guys like you, Ben, who probably got just a little too much enjoyment from participating in Model United Nations in high school. And hey, that's fine. I'm not here to throw insults around. But it's another thing entirely to come here, claiming to "feel for the people," raving about oppression while you arrogantly toast to your own "Great Experiment," which, last I checked, submitted to the same premise of "Administrators have final say" that you take issue with here.
You're making a civil rights struggle out of small potatoes, Ben. You're no freedom fighter.
Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:25 pm
As you may have already seen, EG has been reinstated. A brief explanation of the dispute can be found in my announcement.
Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:43 pm
Bourbon, as you attempt to insult me and try and make me appear a hypocrit you ignore that I did not hold up nbalive.org as a higher standard yet and also stressed that the NLSC is far from the only place there is a problem. I included myself.
I do not consider myself any sort of crusader. I want to know why do we continue to accept this way that is not one I see as good anymore. I did start the "endeavor" at nbalive.org but at the time it was thought necessary to extend a larger power branch to the upper three. I do find that extremely distressing to read now and I do not like that I had kept that when the Consitution was reposted after downtime. However things were different then, errors were made, and things must be corrected. The Constitution was to be reworked and sent back to the users next week after my work load dropped back down to normal so we will be able to remedy this massive problem since now I will make sure to remove that clause.
I don't mean this as an insult, but a query, how long have you been around the Community? A year at least I know. We are held back. We have more people, more posts, more patches yes, but the sites are the same as they were three years ago, they are the same as they were five years ago. We aren't where we should be.
I am not pissed because a moderator lost his job and that's why I likened our Politburo to a Politburo. I do not like Ernest at all and the start of this thread points what I think he was doing wrong as a moderator. The perception that people had of this post was that it was against Ernest, and they're generally right, so I don't see how that would imply I was pissed about "a moderator [losing] his job" and that led me to denounce our elites and liken to a Communist State. Those comparisons are old hat, I just finally posted them blatantly.
Thank you for the kind insult. However, my high school did not have a Model United Nations due to it's constant bankrupcy and general anti-politconess. Even if it had, I would not have participated for a number of reasons including the fact that I would not have a passion for it. Plus, it's a model United Nations for godsakes, why would you want to simulate something that's a mockery of itself.
I did note that Andrew accepted a few inputs regarding issues, another thing you ignored. However, this isn't about just Andrew and the NLSC as everyone wants to make it. And if I were not to slightly exaggerate in use of comparsions to get a point across would you have read? Found it prudant to post? Even cared in the slightest about what I was saying? Would anyone even think about this like Thug has admitted to doing?
I didn't come here the last two days to attack Andrew and hold myself up as a freedom fighter. I came here to ask the other "community leaders" what the hell we are doing. I did not bring down the NLSC while holding up nbalive.org. I didn't talk about nbalive.org except were I wanted to take it now when questioned because this is NLSC Issues.
I don't consider myself a freedom fighter in the slightest. All I want to do is fix the Community I wrecked. Andrew hasn't fixed it because he and everyone else hasn't see anything wrong. I won't say why, but now I am supposed to figure out the things I deeply care about. Maybe it's pathetic, but this is something I do, rightly or wrongly probably far more than anyone else does. I'm also supposed to identify wrongs and address them. I see I wronged the Community like, but moreso, than Andrew wronged EG in his removal from what EG has told me. EG did something about it and helped Andrew fix it. So I have to do something about what I did, and hopefully find more people to work with. I know most of my friends and coworkers at nbalive.org will help, and I was hoping to find some here, especially Andrew so the "divide" ceased to exist.
But I guess nobody cares here. Like so many people have told me to lately, I'll just "leave" then, slink back defeated to my own little site. I will implement the planned reforms, the planned changes, the planned advances so I no longer appear a hypocrit. Waiting for the unblocking that won't happen. Waiting for the changes that won't come because there is no need seen. Keeping to my own little pithy site, not bothering the "community leaders" with my "[make believe] freedom fight[ing]", my annoying commentary, and my "unconstructive criticism." I think we'd all agree there's no reason to go to a site where the majority strongly dislikes and dismisses you (here I'm not exaggerating, I'm actually understimating the number). But anyone from this site is free to either post somwhere on here (maybe a PM?), e-mail, or post on nbalive.org what they want in our new Constitution.
Irregardless and on a much better note. Welcome back EGarrett from your short nbalive.org exile. I'm glad you're able to be back in action on the better forum.
I do not consider myself any sort of crusader. I want to know why do we continue to accept this way that is not one I see as good anymore. I did start the "endeavor" at nbalive.org but at the time it was thought necessary to extend a larger power branch to the upper three. I do find that extremely distressing to read now and I do not like that I had kept that when the Consitution was reposted after downtime. However things were different then, errors were made, and things must be corrected. The Constitution was to be reworked and sent back to the users next week after my work load dropped back down to normal so we will be able to remedy this massive problem since now I will make sure to remove that clause.
I don't mean this as an insult, but a query, how long have you been around the Community? A year at least I know. We are held back. We have more people, more posts, more patches yes, but the sites are the same as they were three years ago, they are the same as they were five years ago. We aren't where we should be.
I am not pissed because a moderator lost his job and that's why I likened our Politburo to a Politburo. I do not like Ernest at all and the start of this thread points what I think he was doing wrong as a moderator. The perception that people had of this post was that it was against Ernest, and they're generally right, so I don't see how that would imply I was pissed about "a moderator [losing] his job" and that led me to denounce our elites and liken to a Communist State. Those comparisons are old hat, I just finally posted them blatantly.
Yet there are guys like you, Ben, who probably got just a little too much enjoyment from participating in Model United Nations in high school.
Thank you for the kind insult. However, my high school did not have a Model United Nations due to it's constant bankrupcy and general anti-politconess. Even if it had, I would not have participated for a number of reasons including the fact that I would not have a passion for it. Plus, it's a model United Nations for godsakes, why would you want to simulate something that's a mockery of itself.
I did note that Andrew accepted a few inputs regarding issues, another thing you ignored. However, this isn't about just Andrew and the NLSC as everyone wants to make it. And if I were not to slightly exaggerate in use of comparsions to get a point across would you have read? Found it prudant to post? Even cared in the slightest about what I was saying? Would anyone even think about this like Thug has admitted to doing?
I didn't come here the last two days to attack Andrew and hold myself up as a freedom fighter. I came here to ask the other "community leaders" what the hell we are doing. I did not bring down the NLSC while holding up nbalive.org. I didn't talk about nbalive.org except were I wanted to take it now when questioned because this is NLSC Issues.
I don't consider myself a freedom fighter in the slightest. All I want to do is fix the Community I wrecked. Andrew hasn't fixed it because he and everyone else hasn't see anything wrong. I won't say why, but now I am supposed to figure out the things I deeply care about. Maybe it's pathetic, but this is something I do, rightly or wrongly probably far more than anyone else does. I'm also supposed to identify wrongs and address them. I see I wronged the Community like, but moreso, than Andrew wronged EG in his removal from what EG has told me. EG did something about it and helped Andrew fix it. So I have to do something about what I did, and hopefully find more people to work with. I know most of my friends and coworkers at nbalive.org will help, and I was hoping to find some here, especially Andrew so the "divide" ceased to exist.
But I guess nobody cares here. Like so many people have told me to lately, I'll just "leave" then, slink back defeated to my own little site. I will implement the planned reforms, the planned changes, the planned advances so I no longer appear a hypocrit. Waiting for the unblocking that won't happen. Waiting for the changes that won't come because there is no need seen. Keeping to my own little pithy site, not bothering the "community leaders" with my "[make believe] freedom fight[ing]", my annoying commentary, and my "unconstructive criticism." I think we'd all agree there's no reason to go to a site where the majority strongly dislikes and dismisses you (here I'm not exaggerating, I'm actually understimating the number). But anyone from this site is free to either post somwhere on here (maybe a PM?), e-mail, or post on nbalive.org what they want in our new Constitution.
Irregardless and on a much better note. Welcome back EGarrett from your short nbalive.org exile. I'm glad you're able to be back in action on the better forum.
Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:15 pm
I appreciate your point of view Ben, even if I'm satisfied by the way Andrew & moderators hold the NLSC, but, Ben, what solutions and changes do you suggest ? What can we improve ? It's no use changing the way this forum is governed if the site & the forum remain the same.
Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:17 pm
Sorry it took me so long to get back to this. Alright, back to it ...
You didn't, no, but by coming in here and suggesting reforms for the NLSC that your own site is (surprisingly) bereft of, you can see why I called you out, right?
Yeah, right around 13 months.
Where do you think we should be? What's your criterion for success?
You mean you couldn't see how I thought you were pro-EGarrett, after writing this? ...
Indeed.
Where'd you note this? Sorry, I must've missed it.
I know, you're obviously not guilty of inciting an online NBA Live war, but you lose credibility from shouting into the rain that which you yourself ignore.
The community's wrecked? Because of you? Once again, you've established yourself as a master of hyperbole.
Bourbon, as you attempt to insult me and try and make me appear a hypocrit you ignore that I did not hold up nbalive.org as a higher standard
You didn't, no, but by coming in here and suggesting reforms for the NLSC that your own site is (surprisingly) bereft of, you can see why I called you out, right?
I don't mean this as an insult, but a query, how long have you been around the Community? A year at least I know.
Yeah, right around 13 months.
We have more people, more posts, more patches yes, but the sites are the same as they were three years ago, they are the same as they were five years ago. We aren't where we should be.
Where do you think we should be? What's your criterion for success?
I am not pissed because a moderator lost his job and that's why I likened our Politburo to a Politburo. I do not like Ernest at all and the start of this thread points what I think he was doing wrong as a moderator. The perception that people had of this post was that it was against Ernest, and they're generally right, so I don't see how that would imply I was pissed about "a moderator [losing] his job" and that led me to denounce our elites and liken to a Communist State.
You mean you couldn't see how I thought you were pro-EGarrett, after writing this? ...
Psch. No. EG is not my problem, I just saw he was having problems with others. I think he could be a good moderator since he has been strict in instances I have found. However, some things needed to be addressed so that he could try and alter his actions to better suit the job. I don't think he should be terminated as a moderator. We all know he's pompous, but I'm sure he cares for the site in his own "twisted" way.
Plus, it's a model United Nations for godsakes, why would you want to simulate something that's a mockery of itself.
Indeed.
I did note that Andrew accepted a few inputs regarding issues, another thing you ignored.
Where'd you note this? Sorry, I must've missed it.
I did not bring down the NLSC while holding up nbalive.org.
I know, you're obviously not guilty of inciting an online NBA Live war, but you lose credibility from shouting into the rain that which you yourself ignore.
All I want to do is fix the Community I wrecked.
The community's wrecked? Because of you? Once again, you've established yourself as a master of hyperbole.
Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:23 am
This case was closed with Ben refusing to continue the fight against the tirany between the 2 sites.
I did decide not to continue few months back, Andrew & Ben make the adjustments they consider are good for their own site, if someone else comes & suggests, some will have different oppinions & see the site good as it is, that's understandable.
In this site, you have to see Ben as a member, nothing else. I do consider if it was myself the one opening the thread, I was going to be told to shut the hell up just like some did & as a matter of fact leave things just the way they were. His suggestions/intentions were not the worst for anyone to consider he was trying to start a war but some members just don't know how to say they have a different opinion without taking things to the next level.
Like I said, I don't consider it's good to open a thread in the section to announce every matter of the site, but if a member feels like opening one to check if something is being done to fix a particular matter, I can't blame him & asking him to shut up is not the way I can show I have a different opinion but everyone is different & you learn to deal with those around.
Alexboom, there's no way to make suggestions but in private with the same Webmaster, like some said it's up to him to accept the suggestions or make the adjustments, also that's not being a communist but learning to avoid situations like we just saw.
I did decide not to continue few months back, Andrew & Ben make the adjustments they consider are good for their own site, if someone else comes & suggests, some will have different oppinions & see the site good as it is, that's understandable.
In this site, you have to see Ben as a member, nothing else. I do consider if it was myself the one opening the thread, I was going to be told to shut the hell up just like some did & as a matter of fact leave things just the way they were. His suggestions/intentions were not the worst for anyone to consider he was trying to start a war but some members just don't know how to say they have a different opinion without taking things to the next level.
Like I said, I don't consider it's good to open a thread in the section to announce every matter of the site, but if a member feels like opening one to check if something is being done to fix a particular matter, I can't blame him & asking him to shut up is not the way I can show I have a different opinion but everyone is different & you learn to deal with those around.
Alexboom, there's no way to make suggestions but in private with the same Webmaster, like some said it's up to him to accept the suggestions or make the adjustments, also that's not being a communist but learning to avoid situations like we just saw.