BIBLICAL debates 2005

Maybe just maybe Trez there is the reincarnation of satan. The way he makes statements against a holy man is considered to be a cursed

Yea, I'm back to this thread again...

He will judge satan for his actions soon....besides as the creator He loves all His works...so even if some were rotten apples in a basket He still have the patience to wait and hope even in the slimmest of hope

Then why did god denounce Satan? He was an arch-angel at first remember; then why did he reject him if he, as you say, "loves all His works...so even if some were rotten apples in a basket He still have the patience to wait"? And how could an angel become an immortal polar opposite of God? I thought God was supreme... Then how could something like an angel achieve that then?

What makes the Christians' message dangerous, Celsus writes, is not that they believe in one God, but that they deviate from monotheism by their "blasphemous" belief in the devil. For all the "impious errors" the Christians commit, Celsus says, they show their greatest ignorance in "making up a being opposed to God, and calling him 'devil,' or, in the Hebrew language, 'Satan.' " All such ideas, Celsus declares, are nothing but human inventions, sacrilegious even to repeat: "it is blasphemy ... to say that the greatest God ... has an adversary who constrains his capacity to do good."
- http://www.dhushara.com/book/god/sat/sat.htm

What makes the Christians' message dangerous, Celsus writes, is not that they believe in one God, but that they deviate from monotheism by their "blasphemous" belief in the devil. For all the "impious errors" the Christians commit, Celsus says, they show their greatest ignorance in "making up a being opposed to God, and calling him 'devil,' or, in the Hebrew language, 'Satan.' " All such ideas, Celsus declares, are nothing but human inventions, sacrilegious even to repeat: "it is blasphemy ... to say that the greatest God ... has an adversary who constrains his capacity to do good."
- http://www.dhushara.com/book/god/sat/sat.htm

This is interesting stuff, and that site shows a book by Elaine Pagels, where she also wrote the Gnostic Gospels. That book have been sitting on my wishlist for a while, so maybe I should order it... Nice find!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no mention of the devil or Satan in the Old Testament?

I believe that they do mention him a few times, although they didn't emphasize on him any at all. (Not quite up for the task of finding quotes at the moment). That's probably because in the Old Testament, God possessed both the Good and Evil powers and dished them both out on a regular basis. Then in the New Testament with all the new-found peace, love and understanding, they didn't feel that God could be both good and evil, so they made up another thing/person to take care of that. And what better than a symbol of sin and an embodiment of what happens if you oppose God, the fallen angel...

First of all. Welcome back Mr. Dahl. the fierce competitor here in this debate thread…..before I will do my rebuttal to your statements above I would just like to let all our viewers know a few things…..

· First is this thread is called “BIBLICAL debates 2005”

Basically everything when used in a formal debate must be in terms of BIBLICAL, not using other references like “BIBLE CODE, DICTIONARY, ETC…ETC…

Why? You may ask? I will cite an example to make things a little clearer.

E.G.

2 parties debating about “if smoking is dangerous to your health” party one is in the PRO part………while party two is in the ANTI part, but both failed to either use any medical proof of their findings(they just end up throwing statistical facts about people’s age expectancy when smoking/or not smoking)…..the debate judge then concluded the two parties where talking nonsense to the fact that the name of the debate is pointing out “HEALTH” and health is a medical term, thereof these 2 parties should cite medical facts not just statistics. (Which the 2 parties were talking all along)



Same applies here. We are talking about the bible so I am using the bible as the basis of my subject and quote all that is written there (if I can remember them correctly). That is why I never attempted to used any other mediums for stressing out my beliefs...



· Second is I ain’t here to instill this “so called” beliefs into you people…..all I wanted is to learn from all you guys in what you think/feel/believe and in return share “some” stuff which I feel can benefit you all to some extent……..if I overdly do it you can tell me to stop or notice me of that ok?



Now into the subject at hand:

Then why did god denounce Satan? He was an arch-angel at first remember;

correct God did denounce Him………but satan ain’t banish from heaven yet………….as I have clearly pointed out in the earlier post I have, satan is freely roaming to and fro to earth or to the heavens if he wishes to. The only thing that’s keeping him away from heaven at the moment is……………(another intriguing secret which I may not reveal) perhaps he is ashamed of going back in there…

; then why did he reject him if he, as you say, "loves all His works...so even if some were rotten apples in a basket He still have the patience to wait"?

satan did become a rotten apple in the basket……….he actually swipe 1/3 of heaven’s angel populations into following him and cause millions of souls here on earth to denounce God and turn against Him…..you can search that in the book of DANIEL,ISAIAH and the REVELATIONS. so that is why God has taken no responsibility for satan’s actions no more. God let him go and let him do what ever he wanted to……….even here on earth…..the story of JOB is the very basic of an example………..so basically God let satan in the basket still……..if you get what I mean………..satan has finished his wrong doings in heaven, now he is on earth doing his stuff whatever that is………

And how could an angel become an immortal polar opposite of God? I thought God was supreme... Then how could something like an angel achieve that then?

satan isn’t the exact immortal polar opposite of God!!!! Satan, yes is a god of lies/deceit/evil he is powerful and yes he is immortal(since all angels and stuff that are in the “unseen world” are immortal)but he ain’t almighty. Satan can’t create. Satan is no creator. he has no power like that. with that flaw he ain’t worthy to be considered polar opposite to God not even close!!!!!!!!!!remember that. nowhere in the bible you can read satan created an army nor created a man/creature just to kill another man/creature(all he can do is do illusions and dumb magic tricks…well sort of…)…..all of this things are lies…….there is only ONE I repeat ONE ALMIGHTY and that is GOD the father… so if you thought God was supreme. i agree to you whole heartedly to that statement…..



when your church or some people told you that satan is in hell right now……….well that’s a deceiving statement………since hell is not yet prepared for him to dwell there……. But A BIG BUT. it will be prepared soon……..and actually it is constructed right at this moment……….

And the notion that satan likes to be in hell is very very very wrong!!!!!!!!!! Do you think God’s punishment is a joke? Like giving a mansion for a prison cell? Gimme a break…..these people are just here to sway you guys from the real truth.

HELL is supposed to be a damnation of a place. No one wants to be there and satan is included. that is why he is free roaming everywhere at the moment and doing all kind of stuff to avoid himself and his minions to be thrown in that place in the end of times…….he’s only hope right now is shaming God and defeating Him by taking away as many souls/angels he can gather from God and maybe God in the end will ease their punishments/or may not punish them at all out of pity..…this satan hope sucks and I doubt he will ever achieve this………..ever………..



That is all. Many thanks for the patience my good friends.

Yea, I'm back to this thread again...

Then why did god denounce Satan? He was an arch-angel at first remember; then why did he reject him if he, as you say, "loves all His works...so even if some were rotten apples in a basket He still have the patience to wait"? And how could an angel become an immortal polar opposite of God? I thought God was supreme... Then how could something like an angel achieve that then?

Angels do not have physical bodies, they were immortal.
(If Adam didn't eat that fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he was immortal too...cuz they ate it and were punished.. so we became mortal people today...... you could blame if u wanna for eve takin the lead to eat the fruit.... jk.)

So as Arch Angel Lucipher, before he became Satan, was the best angel among the angels. Then he became proud, and then became an enemy of God...

God is supreme.. and why didn't he just demolish Satan at that time?
He could do that, but He's a Righteous God so He didn't do that.
So how should Satan be punished??
well, that's the reason we were created today. We were created (on one hand) to be armies of God fighting against the enemy of God, Satan and the rebellions.

God had given us free will to choose, he didn't force us to believe in Him.
Although after creation of Adam and placed him in front of the tree of Life, God's intention was that Adam(represent all Mankind) should choose Him. But He didn't force Adam to do it, and He also didn't put gates or traps around the Tree of Knowledge of Good n evil.. so that Adam n Eve couldn't reach them... No He didn't do it.. cuz God wants men to choose themselves..

While God's Kingdom is being built, Satan is busy trying to destroy it.
But the more Satan's trying, the bigger the kingdom of God gets..

I have a question: What is God waiting for until the end of the world? Do you think there is a certain number of souls that need to be created? I mean, why didn't everything in revelations happen in 1000 A.D., or in the year 2000?

Obviously nobody knows, just wondering your thoughts...

Cuz not everyone has believed in Him..
He wants all men to be saved..not single one to be fallen..
He will even leave the 99 sheeps aside, and go to search for the only lost sheep.

and when he comes back.. He'll come as a bridegroom..
and we as bride isn't ready yet..

SO: As a ratio, there's more non-believers these days, so that means He'll never come back at this rate.

well evrything that is predicted yet mr.bullsfan has not yet happened...........

but here's a fast fact...........about 75% of the prophecies has already been fullfilled....so we may never know what time it will come.....but we can be prepared because of the signs.......

SO: As a ratio, there's more non-believers these days, so that means He'll never come back at this rate.

non-believers are less than believers..(christians)
Catholic Church has about almost 1 bil believers...
(if u include all other christians.. they'll be alot more..)
and the Muslims.. also believe in God..
but they believe in Messiah instead of Jesus..
(They just couldn't twist their mind believin Jesus is God Himself.)
What they do is what the Old Testament believers do..

God wants all men to be saved....
this will definitely be fulfilled...
because..
Those unbelievers who still don't believe in Him when God comes back..
will go through the Hell..(Lake of Fire) to suffer for 1,000 Years..
(we may not know how long is a year..cuz the bible mentioned bout a day= 1000 years.. who knows.. just prediction.. but 1000 years itself is still very very long time.. )
Then they will definitely regret, repent, and believe in God..

so.. why don't believe in God now, rather have to wait for that long time.. to believe in Him..
+ Believe in God ..won't cost anything..
Just believe in heart, and admit He's there.. and accept Him..

I haven't really read any of previous posts so don't know if it's been brought up yet, but anyways....

my scenario....I believe in a higher being (God in some form or another)....I don't go to church as I don't see why I should have to as if you believe, you shouldn't need to go to church to show your beliefs....I was never baptised as my parents were not religious....it's hard to back religions these days as they seem to involved in every war (although, this tends to be more hard-liners and radicals)....I believe in spiritualism....I think there are ghosts/souls/etc....I believe in some sort of life/being after death....I believe I won't burn in hell for not going to church etc when I'm a better human being than a lot of people who do go....I believe in the adage from "Dogma", which goes something like have ideas & be flexible and open, just do not have strong, close-minded beliefs....I think religion was instituted to provide a basis for acceptable human behaviour, and probably to provide a bit of a fear factor if you did not follow these religious laws....

as you can see, I'm pretty much like the norm these days....am a decent, open-minded human being....I don't care if people have there beliefs, as long as they are not forced upon me or invade my privacy or my safety....

that's all for now....
X

Maybe just maybe Trez there is the reincarnation of satan. The way he makes statements against a holy man is considered to be a cursed

what have I said against Jesus Christ......I never mock religion.....Im open to all religions.....but my way of seeing it is....that the respective God's of each religion are teachers.....what happens is people tend to believe they can ask him for anything and that if he doesnt give it back(ex make their life better etc)....that he doesnt exist.....now I dont care if u can pray to someone and he can help make miracles happen or not.

But imo......if u want to learn how to have a better living.....then reading the teachings of your respective religion is best......Im gonna be a bit bias here n say Buddhism is prolly the best because it uses comparisions of everyday life in its teachings(the real ones not the ones u get in some bookshelf in America or Europe)....but again thats my opinion.

People go into various religions hopin it'll help.....but its almost the same teachings.....its very hard for someone born a Catholic to understand Buddhism to its fullest......all they end up learnin most of the time is abt Rebirth and Meditation and on a few occasions what Parinibbana is. Now if a Buddhist tried to learn Catholism it'll be the same end result.....

Well I would have been posting here more often....but this is all about the Bible and I have no clue abt The Bible's contests.....I only call CoolMac stuff like BibleMac because imo he has way too much faith....and gives me an impression that he believes in all that miracle "crap".....so its just my bias/opinion talking.

Im not sure if I made any sense there...but err yeah I just wanted that "Najira is Satan" part cleared up.......closing statement.....Demons, Devils and Satan dont exist....but Bad Luck and Natural Disasters do.

He wants all men to be saved..not single one to be fallen..
He will even leave the 99 sheeps aside, and go to search for the only lost sheep.

This is true, Mr. SO. I also believe that God wants everyone to get to eternal life, but not everyone will make it. In my opinion, not even the majority of people will make it. Take the quote from Jesus: "The road to hevean/eternity is a narrow path, and there are few who find it.", or something close to that.

non-believers are less than believers..(christians)
Catholic Church has about almost 1 bil believers...
(if u include all other christians.. they'll be alot more..)

Along the same lines, many people call themselves Christian but don't really believe or live the life. It's just a status-thing, to show up at church in a suit, nod your head for an hour and then do nothing differently week-to-week.

I don't go to church as I don't see why I should have to as if you believe, you shouldn't need to go to church to show your beliefs

The reason to go to church isn't to "show" your beliefs but to "share" them to make yourself and others faiths stronger. Also, to organize believers together to work on community projects or whatever.

I believe I won't burn in hell for not going to church etc when I'm a better human being than a lot of people who do go

That being said, this quote of yours is true, too. There is no law against non-churchgoers, and Jesus himself didn't go to church (he was Jewish so Synagogue) in his adult years.

believe in the adage from "Dogma", which goes something like have ideas & be flexible and open, just do not have strong, close-minded beliefs

You must find a balance in between the two. It is hard, and it takes all of one's life to work on and still they may not accomplish. You have to stand up for what you believe in, and those beliefs should be strongly rooted in you, but at the same time, you must be flexible, open-minded, and tolerant of others. The wise man is the one who realizes he cannot know everything- meaning there are people who know things he doesn't, which means he would be foolish not to listen to them.

Pride can get in the way if you're not careful.

I only call CoolMac stuff like BibleMac because imo he has way too much faith

It's impossible, dude

Trez, you should read the previous posts, there's some good stuff in there, tolerant debates about just about everything.

this is fast becomin the biggest quadrio thread.....the biggest being The Rock Thread which basically has 3 posters....Me, Jae and Jowe and to complete the quadrio...the guest posters like Jona, IHB-Walton The X and Filip

I don't think I have written a single post in this thread

jesus is real

That's a belief.

this is fast becomin the biggest quadrio thread.....the biggest being The Rock Thread which basically has 3 posters....Me, Jae and Jowe and to complete the quadrio...the guest posters like Jona, IHB-Walton The X and Filip

I don't think I have written a single post in this thread

so you don't post in the rock thread?!? I could have sworn I've seen you in there

Well, here's something relevant. English soccer fans' debate regarding the existence( or not) of God...

http://www.thedugout.tv/community/showt ... ge=1&pp=50

this is fast becomin the biggest quadrio thread.....the biggest being The Rock Thread which basically has 3 posters....Me, Jae and Jowe and to complete the quadrio...the guest posters like Jona, IHB-Walton The X and Filip

I don't think I have written a single post in this thread

so you don't post in the rock thread?!? I could have sworn I've seen you in there

I've been there a few times. don't remember Filip ever being there

I was thinking...

That God has different expectations for everyone, and different "goals" that everyone needs to achieve in order to get into heaven.

Specifically, I think that for people who grow up doing all the wrong things, acting badly, hurting themselves and others, etc., if they can come to a point by the end of their lives where they accept God in some way (deeds, and especially faith), then that's good enough to get into heaven. Just the acceptance of God. Look at the story in the bible, when Jesus was dying on the cross, next to 2 other men who were being crucified for lives of crime. One of them rebuked Jesus, defiant till the end, but the other repented, was sorry, and simply said, "Lord, remember me when you go back to your Father." (something like that- I don't have a bible on me) Jesus answered, "Truly I say to you, today you will be in paradise."

I'm not God, but I'm guessing that this would be viewed very highly by Him b/c it is a great thing if a person changes so drastically towards good & God by the end of their lives.

But what about those who readily accept, follow, and worship God (in whatever way you want to call it- religion, faith, works) from the time they were kids? And grow up as good people, helping & serving others?

Do they get a free pass into heaven, having already reached the same point by childhood that the first person I mentioned above reached by the end of their life?

You could say that for the person who believes early on in life, the thing God will be looking for in judgement is whether or not they can sustain their goodness, and not let the pressures & troubles of life make them cynical and crush their faith & goodness.

But I think that there's more than that: to me, there are no free passes. Everyone must struggle equally, everyone has the same standards. For the person believing as a child, I think that they must live a very influential life, a very important one. You can't just "keep believing," and live your life just like anyone else. If you are fortunate to be told about God & to accept it as a youngster, you must do something with it. What to do with it will be different for every person, I don't know.

It's along the same lines as the famous Spiderman quote: "With great power comes great responsibility."

jesus is real

That's a belief.

Actually, Jesus did live. It doesn't say anywhere in anything that he didn't exist. All of the major religions say he excited as well as non-religious writings, although it's only within Christianity that they say he was messiah. In Islam they say he was one of the mightiest prophets, although no messiah. He did live; The question would be whether if he was divine/holy or not...

Because it isn't written that he did not live, means he lived?

It's not written anywhere that I have a large penis. Does that mean I don't?

Hmm, wonder if God will strike me with a bolt of lightening for bringing my penis into his thread.

I was trying to point out that it says at many different places with many different sources (religious and non-religious) that he did live. We don't know if he actually made any miracles or anything like that though, since that pretty much can't be proved; although the stuff would be physically impossible. (unless you take the bible more as figuratively rather than literally that is; which I'm leaning towards)

I've got a feeling Filip posted in the rock thread, something about GnR