Terrorist Attack on London

[cyanide]

But if we had done nothing, who knows if Saddam would have killed an equal amount of his people?

and who knows if there would be far less casualties? So... let's roll the dice to decide, shall we?

An interesting perspective. There are over 100 000 civilian casualties in Iraq that goes largely unnoticed, plus soldier casualties on both sides, plus destruction in Iraq due to bombings, all for a democratic Iraq. I'm all for an democratic Iraq, but then you throw in the American "control" and influence with buildings and establishments in Iraq, Iraq would lose its soverignty. I'm all for the ousting of Saddam, but how many more people would he kill till he reaches 100 000 more casualty deaths?

In addition, there's a growing network of anti-American terrorist groups that's setting the progress that America hopes backwards. As Cheney put it, "they are in their last throes," which is probably the most ridiculous thing uttered from his mouth, it's ignorant to say that terrorism will be stopped since you cannot stop terrorism. There will always be terrorism, and the occupation of Iraq is actually igniting more violence with the insurgents. Maybe over time, they can decrease the number, but who knows, they'll be sacrificing a lot in the end.

[Jona]

All I ask of the younger generation is to abide by the song: "Open mind for a different view..."

"Nothing Else Matters" by Metallica??

[FendeR`]

If we never invaded Iraq to oust Saddam because we didn't want to 'ignite' terrorism, what would we be saying to terrorists? Please don't hurt us? I realize it's an aggressive approach, but something needed to be done. Put it this way; we might have chosen the completely wrong path in invading Iraq. But we tried. If we had done nothing, and Saddam killed more people and terrorism continued as strong as ever, would we have ever heard the end of it as the world power? And more importantly, would we have been able to live with ourselves as a nation? There's no easy way out. I accept what you guys think, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you seem to make it (in my opinion). Oh, and as far as me using "outsiders", I was trying to politely refer to people outside the US. Again, I don't watch much news anyway, I'm not quite as 'brainwashed' as you might think. "People outside the US" is what I meant, if you're going to analyze every word I choose.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

"Nothing Else Matters" by Metallica??

Indeed... Long live King James (Hetfield)

If we never invaded Iraq to oust Saddam because we didn't want to 'ignite' terrorism, what would we be saying to terrorists? Please don't hurt us? I realize it's an aggressive approach, but something needed to be done. Put it this way; we might have chosen the completely wrong path in invading Iraq. But we tried. If we had done nothing, and Saddam killed more people and terrorism continued as strong as ever, would we have ever heard the end of it as the world power? And more importantly, would we have been able to live with ourselves as a nation? There's no easy way out.

If Saddam was the only problem, your nation had the resources, resolve and time to assasinate him. Simple as that. It's not as difficult as some portrayed it to be.

Oh, and as far as me using "outsiders", I was trying to politely refer to people outside the US. Again, I don't watch much news anyway, I'm not quite as 'brainwashed' as you might think. "People outside the US" is what I meant, if you're going to analyze every word I choose.

That's the aim of propaganda. To alter people's initial thoughts, reactins, and even choice of words.

[Riot]

We didn't go there just to take Saddam out. You have to fully take out his full regime.

[FendeR`]

That's the aim of propaganda. To alter people's initial thoughts, reactins, and even choice of words.

I've already told you I don't watch the news, and I'm not old enough to vote. I don't know why you insist on saying I'm brainwashed other than that you have nothing else to say. You've never seen American TV, or at least not on a daily basis, so you have no idea what they say. I'm a big boy and I can make my own decisions. Don't believe me? I just started wearing training diapers yesterday. Keep saying I'm being brainwashed by political propaganda, I'll keep laughing.

[Riot]

You started training diapers? How the hell did you get ahead of me?

[The Other Kevin]

You started training diapers? How the hell did you get ahead of me?

getting dropped on the head didn't help

[Jackal]

Enough with the wise cracks already.

[Riot]

You started training diapers? How the hell did you get ahead of me?

getting dropped on the head didn't help

Atleast they can tell which end is my face.

[The Other Kevin]

You started training diapers? How the hell did you get ahead of me?

getting dropped on the head didn't help

Atleast they can tell which end is my face.

yeah Jackal

[Riot]

Are you stupid on purpose?

[The Other Kevin]

Are you stupid on purpose?

oh of course

[Jackal_]

Are you stupid on purpose?

oh of course

MJ, whats up wiht your bogus posts? This isnt an msn chat...


Fender, I have to go with Dweaver on this debate. You're a cool dude and I consider you my friend but you have to look at the whole picture bud. Like I mentioned before Bush has a 42% approval rating.. that means about 48% of the U.S. does not approve of Bush. Keep in mind it takes more than 50% of the peoples votes to elect a president.. obviously those who did vote for him even know now Bush is in the wrong..

Objective 1: 9/11 Happens, Bush sets out to fight the war on terror...word has it Osama was in Afghanistan, Bush sets out to Afghanistan...why not take the Taliban while they're at it. Hundreds of thousands of innocent lives are ruined forever.. Objective 1 completed.

Objective 2: Take out Saddam. What better way than to say Saddam has links to Al-Qaida? Invades Iraq, again ruins hundreds of thousands of lives. Captures Saddam.. Iraq is happy now...right? NOT.

Who knows whats next? "Osama has links to North Korea and Iran!" Lets invade them both. WW3 will break out the day Bush decides to do this..

The concept behind all this is domination, when you have a man that failed a shitload of courses in College how do you expect him to lead your country?

[The Other Kevin]

MJ, whats up wiht your bogus posts? This isnt an msn chat...

eh? i dunno

Fender, I have to go with Dweaver on this debate. You're a cool dude and I consider you my friend but you have to look at the whole picture bud. Like I mentioned before Bush has a 42% approval rating.. that means about 48% of the U.S. does not approve of Bush. Keep in mind it takes more than 50% of the peoples votes to elect a president.. obviously those who did vote for him even know now Bush is in the wrong..

wrong. it does not take more than 50% to win a presidential election. it is just who ever wins the electoral collage

Objective 1: 9/11 Happens, Bush sets out to fight the war on terror...word has it Osama was in Afghanistan, Bush sets out to Afghanistan...why not take the Taliban while they're at it. Hundreds of thousands of innocent lives are ruined forever.. Objective 1 completed.

why we did take too much force, the taliban was housing and protecting terrorists, and stood in the way of catching those terrorists

Objective 2: Take out Saddam. What better way than to say Saddam has links to Al-Qaida? Invades Iraq, again ruins hundreds of thousands of lives. Captures Saddam.. Iraq is happy now...right? NOT.

of course. but you forgot a major factor G.O.D., or Gold Oil Dolars

Who knows whats next? "Osama has links to North Korea and Iran!" Lets invade them both. WW3 will break out the day Bush decides to do this..

North Korea dose actually have nuculear weapons and has expressed that they would use them in millitary actions against the U.S. and it's allies

The concept behind all this is domination, when you have a man that failed a shitload of courses in College how do you expect him to lead your country?

people don't reallize how stupid he really is. they think he is one of them and the [the american public] likes that in a high-ranking public official sadly[/quote][/b]

[Jackal_]

people don't reallize how stupid he really is. they think he is one of them and the [the american public] likes that in a high-ranking public official sadly

[/b]
[/quote]

That didn't make sense.

You obviously didn't understand anything I wrote. There's reasons we don't hear for Bush's invasion in the Middle East.. Osama Bin Laden is a coverup... Bush uses him to get to other countries. Read my previous posts from last page and maybe you'll understand. Hell even read Dweavers post.. he sees things clearly too..

[Matthew]

College is so overated.

Fender, I have to go with Dweaver on this debate. You're a cool dude and I consider you my friend but you have to look at the whole picture bud. Like I mentioned before Bush has a 42% approval rating.. that means about 48% of the U.S. does not approve of Bush. Keep in mind it takes more than 50% of the peoples votes to elect a president.. obviously those who did vote for him even know now Bush is in the wrong..

If people dont vote, that means they dont care. If they dont care, what right do they have to bitch if president bush gets in?

Objective 1: 9/11 Happens, Bush sets out to fight the war on terror...word has it Osama was in Afghanistan, Bush sets out to Afghanistan...why not take the Taliban while they're at it. Hundreds of thousands of innocent lives are ruined forever.. Objective 1 completed.

You tell that to the women who used to live in afganistan, who were circumsised (cliterious removed so they couldnt enjoy sex), unable to look out windows, etc etc. They didnt even have television. How you can say that people are worse off now is a joke, and goes against your entire arguement of propagander.

Objective 2: Take out Saddam. What better way than to say Saddam has links to Al-Qaida? Invades Iraq, again ruins hundreds of thousands of lives. Captures Saddam.. Iraq is happy now...right? NOT.

Iraq is better now. I have an Iraqi friend and he tells me of some of the bad things that sadaam did. People forget, he is the dictator, not George Bush. Iraq is free of that dictator, and sure there is violence, but thats becuase the job is not complete.

I love it when people who do nothing, sit back, and when things arent perfect, complain. How would you solve terrorisim? By hoping that people wont hate you? By bowing to their demands?

You obviously didn't understand anything I wrote. There's reasons we don't hear for Bush's invasion in the Middle East.. Osama Bin Laden is a coverup... Bush uses him to get to other countries. Read my previous posts from last page and maybe you'll understand. Hell even read Dweavers post.. he sees things clearly too..

Just becuase you believe somthing doesnt make it right, and just becuase someone agrees with you doesnt automatically mean you are seeing things clearly. Its possible that you are both brainwashed by media too.. it goes both ways. If you are quick to dismiss any credible thought becuase it goes against yours, then you are close minded. And people, generally, who claim that they are right, are usually close minded too.

[AlwaysWhat,NeverWhy]

Don't believe me? I just started wearing training diapers yesterday. Keep saying I'm being brainwashed by political propaganda, I'll keep laughing.

Hmmm... the joy of debating.... Whatever...

If people dont vote, that means they dont care. If they dont care, what right do they have to bitch if president bush gets in?

That doesn't change the fact thet only 42% of US citizens approve of their leader. Not even half his country is backing up his acts of destructions, but what do we focus on? That Americans are too lazy to vote. Yeah, right...

You tell that to the women who used to live in afganistan, who were circumsised (cliterious removed so they couldnt enjoy sex), unable to look out windows, etc etc. They didnt even have television. How you can say that people are worse off now is a joke, and goes against your entire arguement of propagander.

Cynical as it may be, I'd exchange 100.000 human lives for that anyday. Geez...

Iraq is better now. I have an Iraqi friend and he tells me of some of the bad things that sadaam did. People forget, he is the dictator, not George Bush. Iraq is free of that dictator, and sure there is violence, but thats becuase the job is not complete.

I love it when people who do nothing, sit back, and when things arent perfect, complain. How would you solve terrorisim? By hoping that people wont hate you? By bowing to their demands?

No. By striking terror with terror. Eye for an eye. Tooth for a tooth. Destroy, annihilate, maim. That'll show those bad boy terrorists who they're messing with.

Just becuase you believe somthing doesnt make it right, and just becuase someone agrees with you doesnt automatically mean you are seeing things clearly. Its possible that you are both brainwashed by media too.. it goes both ways. If you are quick to dismiss any credible thought becuase it goes against yours, then you are close minded. And people, generally, who claim that they are right, are usually close minded too.

"Open mind for a different view... and nothing else matters". Too bad some people only focus on th e'nothing else matters' part...

[Stevesanity]

Thats what happens to countries that go sticking their butt into everyone elses problems, fix home before you go bombing muslims and preaching anti-terrorist policies when nothing has been changed.

the Al-Qaeda is stronger than ever and even after 9/11 they still can terrorise any country they want to.

Our country is in a bigger mess than Iraq, Afganistan or any countries run by muslim terrorists. We have people killing each other with guns, some of them arent even 18 yet, psychos killing and raping 10 women and not getting caught until 10 years later, people living off dealing...oh yes the United States is indeed a pretty place, we can all be proud to be american.

[Matthew]

That doesn't change the fact thet only 42% of US citizens approve of their leader. Not even half his country is backing up his acts of destructions, but what do we focus on? That Americans are too lazy to vote. Yeah, right.

Well what do you want? Them to hold another election? Stop bitching.

Cynical as it may be, I'd exchange 100.000 human lives for that anyday. Geez...

Its not just that... Heres how life was under taliban rule

Amputating the hands of thieves.

Public executions

Shooting of prostitutes in sport stadiums

Shooting of murderers by victim's family, in sport stadium

Hanging or throat cutting of robbers, in sport stadium

Stoning of adulterous (unmarried) couples

Collapsing a wall over homosexuals

On the advice of the Hindu community elders, who used to be disturbed by the police who thought them to be Muslims who had shaved their beards, on May 22, 2001, the Taliban issued an order that Hindus and other non-Muslims must wear a yellow identity symbol. This policy was replaced in June of the same year, by an order that Hindus were required to carry a special identification card.

Muslim men were beaten or jailed for shaving or excessively cutting their beards

Women were not permitted to wear see-through socks or shoes, nor to wear shoes that make noise when walking

Women suffered physical punishment if showed face in public

Houses with women present were required to have windows facing the street painted over so people outside would not be able to look inside.

Converting people from Islam (death penalty for Afghan convert, expulsion for foreign national)


Hey, what a wonderful life they must've lived. Imagine if that was your wife that was subjected to that.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_under_Taliban_rule

No. By striking terror with terror. Eye for an eye. Tooth for a tooth. Destroy, annihilate, maim. That'll show those bad boy terrorists who they're messing with.

Fire with fire? That would mean directing our attack at innocent muslims. We aren't on their level.

"Open mind for a different view... and nothing else matters". Too bad some people only focus on th e'nothing else matters' part...

Yeah, someone disagree's with you and they're close minded?

[Matthew]

Thats what happens to countries that go sticking their butt into everyone elses problems, fix home before you go bombing muslims and preaching anti-terrorist policies when nothing has been changed.

the Al-Qaeda is stronger than ever and even after 9/11 they still can terrorise any country they want to.

Our country is in a bigger mess than Iraq, Afganistan or any countries run by muslim terrorists. We have people killing each other with guns, some of them arent even 18 yet, psychos killing and raping 10 women and not getting caught until 10 years later, people living off dealing...oh yes the United States is indeed a pretty place, we can all be proud to be american.

They made it america's problem in 9/11. and they arent as strong.. think about it, how big september 11 was. not it takes them 18 months to make up a plan (yes it was bad, but on a scale of 9/11 it was nothing) that barely did anything. terrorism is slowing dying.

And no country is perfect. I bet you'd criticse america if they didnt go into afganistan or iraq either.

Tell me what your reaction would be if america didnt do into iraq, there was a nuclear bomb detonated in la, and you found out that it was sadaam. Im curious to find out.

[Stevesanity]

Thats what happens to countries that go sticking their butt into everyone elses problems, fix home before you go bombing muslims and preaching anti-terrorist policies when nothing has been changed.

the Al-Qaeda is stronger than ever and even after 9/11 they still can terrorise any country they want to.

Our country is in a bigger mess than Iraq, Afganistan or any countries run by muslim terrorists. We have people killing each other with guns, some of them arent even 18 yet, psychos killing and raping 10 women and not getting caught until 10 years later, people living off dealing...oh yes the United States is indeed a pretty place, we can all be proud to be american.

They made it america's problem in 9/11. and they arent as strong.. think about it, how big september 11 was. not it takes them 18 months to make up a plan (yes it was bad, but on a scale of 9/11 it was nothing) that barely did anything. terrorism is slowing dying.

And no country is perfect. I bet you'd criticse america if they didnt go into afganistan or iraq either.

Tell me what your reaction would be if america didnt do into iraq, there was a nuclear bomb detonated in la, and you found out that it was sadaam. Im curious to find out.

I wouldnt be alive if a nuclear bomb went in LA, Im not sure but last time I checked nuclear bombs dont share an equal radius to hand grenades.

Terrorism is dying? Tell to that to the people in Iraq where terrorists are killing them, tell that to our soldiers. Bush went bombing the Afghan's but he didnt even get Osama Bin-Laden did he?, hes still alive and kicking and he got some of his pals to bomb London.

Im not saying we shouldnt go to war if WE WERE STRIKED, but you dont go sheet bombing cities. 3000+ Americans and Internationals may have died in 9/11, but think about how many Mothers, Children and Fathers died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Did they all bomb us? did they help send those two planes into the WTC, I highly doubt that and only someone with a racist grudge would say yes.

Do you live in some rich Sydney neighbourhood cause thats the image Im getting, maybe you should spend some time in the Bronx, Chicago, Philly or in Compton Im sure you'll see how great our country is and why we should spend billions producing warheads to kill Iraqi's and Afghan's and anyone against our ideals.

[Matthew]

I dont even get what your arguement is. It sounds like you want to blame america for fighting these peices of shit becuase life isnt perfect in america. I guess if someone rapes a girl thats george bush's fault too, and not the rapist.

The way to contain terrorism is through intelligence. Theres no way to stop someone from walking onto a bus, and blowing themself up. The way to combat it is through intelligence, and so far america, england, australia and other countries have done a good job. Not a perfect job, but a good job.

Remember, these terrorist target anyone. They targeted spain when they were days away from withdrawing their troops. They targeted russia who dont even have troops in iraq. They target people going to work, schoolkids, people who have nothing to do with politics (which is in response to "Did they all bomb us? did they help send those two planes into the WTC, I highly doubt that and only someone with a racist grudge would say yes.")

Dont get me wrong, I feel sorry for the people who die in crossfire too. But why do people automatically assume that to be america's fault? It looks like you're just looking for reasons to bitch.

And where im from has nothing to do with you, so you can go fuck yourself .

[J@3]

Were Al-Qaeda or whatever it is involved in the attacks in Spain? Just wondering, since it seems to get overlooked in these sorts of discussions.

[Jackal]

responsibility was claimed by the Basque armed terrorist group ETA:Euskadi Ta Askatasuna ("Basque Fatherland and Liberty") or ETA.

Official statements issued shortly after the Madrid attacks identified ETA as the prime suspect, but the group, which usually claims responsibility for its actions, denied any wrong-doing. Later evidence strongly pointed to the involvement of extremist Islamist groups, with the Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group named as a focus of investigations. As of early April 2004, fifteen people had been arrested, and seven more were detained in connection with the attacks.

Not per se Al Qaeda, still terrorists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_March%2 ... id_attacks