Are you ready for some football?

the trade went through but i'd like to give my last 2 cents anyway

matthew- i'm a little lost here.

the meat of your argument is that Saban is tempermental and is a no nonsense guy and will bench Brown if he doesn't perform (lol this can be used on every player). but still you haven't mentioned anything legit as to WHY you think Brown will not perform. saying Miami's passing will make Brown a weaker player is ridiculous

players have the highest bust potential when they are playing on teams with poor offfensive lines & poor passing games, coming off a major injury, their 1st time being a feature back, or are getting old... completely opposite of the situation that Ronnie Brown is in.

and we've seen time and time again good passing games and good running games able to coexist with both sides putting up good numbers. most recently off the top of my head the Colts, Bengals, Steelers, Giants, Philadelphia

i don't understand your complaining about the criticism this deal is receiving/why the veto exists? exactly what risk is coming from your side? LOL you have Manning as your QB so you have no problems getting rid of McNabb for a RB who many fantasy experts are saying will have a big year.

this isn't about rankings or RB obsession. if good QB's are hard to come by as you claim, then 8 out of the first 10 picks in our draft and in many drafts would have been QB's, not RB's.. and if you still want to go further, Mcnabb's average draft spot is around 30 spots after Brown's lol

but hey the trade went through and there isn't any $ invovled in this league anyway. good luck


German Beau-Catz- i'd like to trade for Thomas Jones

The reasons why I think that Brown could struggle is Miami has all the peices in place to be a pass orientated team. This was evident in the pittsburgh game where Miami had what, 11 first half rushing yards? Brown finished with 2 touchdowns which was great, but they were both goaline scores and is somthing im not really expecting to be the case throughout the season with Culpeppers scrambling ability, but the jury is still out on his knee.

Plus the fact that Ronnie Brown could simply falter in his second year. Plenty of players show promise in their first season only to fall flat on their face the second year. Who would have predicted Jamal Lewis to have such a bad season last year? Or Preist Holmes? Add to the fact that those guys I mentioned are veterans and not second year players and it further proves my point that the past is never the be all factor in determining how valueable a player will be in a fantasy league, let alone when the past is just a rookie season.

As for the risk on my part for this deal, I spent a 3rd round pick on McNabb, so even with Manning there is still a high level of risk there. I couldn't care less if people wanted to draft Lamont Jordan before Steve Smith or draft Tiki Barber ahead of peyton manning, if you look at the scoring system its crazy to be taking those kinds of players in the first round. Granted that interceptions are much more common then fumbles, but passing td's are much more common then rushing ones. But if people want to take them, be my guest. But don't say running backs are worth that much more when it comes to trades becuase it will be impossible to make a (fair) deal.

And fantasy "experts" have ronnie brown ahead of Manning, so i'm not even going to go into the idioticy behind that.

The reasons why I think that Brown could struggle is Miami has all the peices in place to be a pass orientated team.

and the pieces to be a good running team.. giving the team a very well balanced offense

This was evident in the pittsburgh game where Miami had what, 11 first half rushing yards? Brown finished with 2 touchdowns which was great, but they were both goaline scores and is somthing im not really expecting to be the case throughout the season with Culpeppers scrambling ability, but the jury is still out on his knee.

nothing is evident after the 1st game lo but if you want to go that way...

Miami was in the ballgame until they abandoned the run. instead of using Polamalu as a 5th LB, he spent a lot of the 4th Qtr just roaming andreading Culpepper...
A RB punches it in twice in goaline situations against one of the league's top defenses. you're in denial if you't think Miami won't be involving their RB's in goalline situations

Plus the fact that Ronnie Brown could simply falter in his second year.

and he could simply have a great year. but you don't have much to back up your opinion other then randomn chance and pessimism

Plenty of players show promise in their first season only to fall flat on their face the second year. Who would have predicted Jamal Lewis to have such a bad season last year?

jamal lewis was in jail... not with the Ravens working out with his coaches and teammates. even Jordan got undressed by the Magic after he came back from baseball

Or Preist Holmes?

in the 3 years leading to his falloff (coinciding with him turning 30)- he was averaging a ridiculous amount of carries per year (320!). i'm sure your'e aware of the shelf life of RB's and how many fall off the radar because of the punishment they take

Add to the fact that those guys I mentioned are veterans and not second year players and it further proves my point that the past is never the be all factor in determining how valueable a player will be in a fantasy league, let alone when the past is just a rookie season.

no- you're picking players in entirely different situations so they are not applicable in this discussion.

the past is not the 'be all' factor but it is a big factor for a 2nd year player. what else is there to go off? gut feeling lol? i'm not saying he's going to be the next emmit smith, but as i mentioned earlier in the thread, all signs point to him having a successful season because he plays with a strong o-line & passing game (eventually), hasn't suffered a major injury, and already gained <900yds in only his rookie year.

anywho i do find this ironic how the person who traded for Brown and started him immediately is saying Brown will bust

As for the risk on my part for this deal, I spent a 3rd round pick on McNabb, so even with Manning there is still a high level of risk there.

i don't know if you were at the draft but you already had the most consistent and durable quarterback in all of the fantasy land (not a bad selection at that spot imo) and yet you still nabbed another QB at pick #3. that was the risk there... not the trade

I couldn't care less if people wanted to draft Lamont Jordan before Steve Smith or draft Tiki Barber ahead of peyton manning, if you look at the scoring system its crazy to be taking those kinds of players in the first round. Granted that interceptions are much more common then fumbles, but passing td's are much more common then rushing ones. But if people want to take them, be my guest. But don't say running backs are worth that much more when it comes to trades becuase it will be impossible to make a (fair) deal.

lol you agreed earlier in the thread that RB's are the most consistent point producers in fantasy football and now you change your mind.

your point starts to make sense if we were playing in a league where you start 2QB's. however our league starts only 1QB but starts 2RB's (most likely 3 with that flex position) so you need to have good RBs. so that makes it 3/7 of your offensive starters production will come from the RB position. also keep in mind most teams have 1 RB getting most of the action while starting 2, sometimes 3 receivers

but hey, maybe your theory is right. some people are content with 2 top 5 quarterbacks but settiling for the carolina backfield as both their starting RB's and benson as their3rd RB... and 2 no.2 type WR's lol

i don't think anyone was surprised when you went after a better RB and the GM you got him from was a rookie.

And fantasy "experts" have ronnie brown ahead of Manning, so i'm not even going to go into the idioticy behind that.

how many and which ones? out of the big guns at ESPN, cbssportsline, tmr, rotoworld, the draft lobby at espn... only 2 had brown being drafted ahead of Manning

sorry to get all jackal with the post. i know you put some time and thinking in your post so i wanted to return the favor/not be selective with i was going to respond to

My oh my... I'll try to keep the quotes down to a minimum

and the pieces to be a good running team.. giving the team a very well balanced offense

They have a decent line and talented running back, thats granted. But being good on paper doesn't mean that you will be good on the feild, let alone in a fantasy league.

nothing is evident after the 1st game lo but if you want to go that way...

Miami was in the ballgame until they abandoned the run. instead of using Polamalu as a 5th LB, he spent a lot of the 4th Qtr just roaming andreading Culpepper...
A RB punches it in twice in goaline situations against one of the league's top defenses. you're in denial if you't think Miami won't be involving their RB's in goalline situations

Maybe I am in somewhat denial about him getting alot of goaline touches. But heres the thing, Daunte is probably the toughest qb to stop inside the 5 yard line. Ronnie Brown had 2 opportunities and capitalised on both. How many times did Culpepper have the ball in his hands in the same set of downs(and i'm not reffering to handoffs).

and he could simply have a great year. but you don't have much to back up your opinion other then randomn chance and pessimism

I've always said (and told Jugs this as well before the trade) that there is every bit a chance that Ronnie Brown could have a great year as a disapointing season. I'm not saying Brown will definately be a bust, but rather there is a chance he wont be worth the high projected rating, and its impossible to say its a bad trade at this point in time becuase we have no idea what could happen during the season. That's the beauty of trades.

jamal lewis was in jail... not with the Ravens working out with his coaches and teammates. even Jordan got undressed by the Magic after he came back from baseball

Getting way off topic here, but Did Lewis miss any games?

in the 3 years leading to his falloff (coinciding with him turning 30)- he was averaging a ridiculous amount of carries per year (320!). i'm sure your'e aware of the shelf life of RB's and how many fall off the radar because of the punishment they take

I'm also aware that just one injury (whether its a concussion or a torn knee or whatever) can ruin a plays season or career. Preist was doing ok before he did take that knock to the head.

the past is not the 'be all' factor but it is a big factor for a 2nd year player. what else is there to go off? gut feeling lol? i'm not saying he's going to be the next emmit smith, but as i mentioned earlier in the thread, all signs point to him having a successful season because he plays with a strong o-line & passing game (eventually), hasn't suffered a major injury, and already gained <900yds in only his rookie year.

So tell me, what is the difference between willie parker and ronnie brown? Do you honestly believe you would be so butthurt if I had traded McNabb for Parker? Just becuase the projected rankings have someone high doesnt make them a lock to be better.

anywho i do find this ironic how the person who traded for Brown and started him immediately is saying Brown will bust

I drafted Mcnabb with the intention of trading him, I know you cant play 2 qbs, and the further proof was me drafting rivers to be mannings backup becuase i knew i was trading him. I only spoke to two people before making my deal. At first I went after Owens, but pulled the pin after I was offered Matt Jones for Mcnabb. Then I spoke to Jugs and offered him Mcnabb for either Brown or Jackson. I still refuse to admit this is a bad trade becuase the risk/reward for both players is the same, and both teams need help at those positions.

i don't know if you were at the draft but you already had the most consistent and durable quarterback in all of the fantasy land (not a bad selection at that spot imo) and yet you still nabbed another QB at pick #3. that was the risk there... not the trade

I took McNabb becuase he was the best player available, and I was confident I could use him in a trade to get a better player then one that was available in the draft at that time.

lol you agreed earlier in the thread that RB's are the most consistent point producers in fantasy football and now you change your mind.

On a whole, Running backs are the most consistant. But when around the 15th best running back prospect is considered head and shoulders above the 3rd best quarterback prospect, then I have an issue with that.

but hey, maybe your theory is right. some people are content with 2 top 5 quarterbacks but settiling for the carolina backfield as both their starting RB's and benson as their3rd RB... and 2 no.2 type WR's lol

Oh we're going down that road are we, the guy who was happy to get Culpepper (how'd that work out for you?) and Reggie Bush in the second round. Great selections! I wonder how it will feel to lose to Jing, someone who hasnt even subbed Davis out of his lineup when he is on ir.

i don't think anyone was surprised when you went after a better RB and the GM you got him from was a rookie.

Your deal for Gore was even worse! You've come up with all this importance about running backs, and you just traded a wr for a rb. Sure, the projected ranking might not reflect a bad deal, but theres no way you arent getting the better of that trade.

how many and which ones? out of the big guns at ESPN, cbssportsline, tmr, rotoworld, the draft lobby at espn... only 2 had brown being drafted ahead of Manning

Yahoo's big board

Top 12 picks are running backs. Brown is at 6. Manning is at 21! McNabb isn't even in the top 50. And you want me to believe what fantasy experts have to say? Gime me a break. I hope you enjoy having Culpepper and Reggie Bush for your season.

Out of curiosity and since they are 2 names I know, what's wrong with having Culpepper and Bush?

Culpepper tore his ACL last year, and Bush is a rookie.

They have a decent line and talented running back, thats granted. But being good on paper doesn't mean that you will be good on the feild, let alone in a fantasy league.

and the same could be said for Miami's passing game. in fact, this discussion is useless if you continue to play this "until they hit the field" card.

Maybe I am in somewhat denial about him getting alot of goaline touches. But heres the thing, Daunte is probably the toughest qb to stop inside the 5 yard line. Ronnie Brown had 2 opportunities and capitalised on both. How many times did Culpepper have the ball in his hands in the same set of downs(and i'm not reffering to handoffs).

yes you are in denial. Even if Brown had not gained many yards in the game, Miami still decided to give it to him near the goaline against a top ranked defense. I think that says enough about the Coaching staff's confidence in/willingness to use the running game

and yes, Daunte is a good threat but he just happens to have the worst fumble ratio for a QB in the history of the NFL

there is every bit a chance that Ronnie Brown could have a great year as a disapointing season. I'm not saying Brown will definately be a bust, but rather there is a chance he wont be worth the high projected rating,

i'm getting tired of debating vs the randomn chance and pessimism side.

and its impossible to say its a bad trade at this point in time becuase we have no idea what could happen during the season. That's the beauty of trades.

ok so i'll just assume you'll be sending me Peyton Manning for my kicker.

Getting way off topic here, but Did Lewis miss any games?

Did Lewis being in jail affect his performance?

I'm also aware that just one injury (whether its a concussion or a torn knee or whatever) can ruin a plays season or career. Preist was doing ok before he did take that knock to the head.

and i'm assuming you're aware the K.C drafted another RB with their 1st round pick in 2003 and around that time, fantasy 'experts' were already suggesting to handcuff the KC RB situation

So tell me, what is the difference between willie parker and ronnie brown? Do you honestly believe you would be so butthurt if I had traded McNabb for Parker? Just becuase the projected rankings have someone high doesnt make them a lock to be better.

Ronnie Brown is better fantasy player because i flipped a coin and Ronnie Brown scored 2 TD while Parker didn't. i wouldn't veto a Parker for McNabb trade. and using the worst case scenario doesn't make your opinions any more valid

At first I went after Owens, but pulled the pin after I was offered Matt Jones for Mcnabb.

i didn't offer you Matt Jones

On a whole, Running backs are the most consistant. But when around the 15th best running back prospect is considered head and shoulders above the 3rd best quarterback prospect, then I have an issue with that.

lol that's a bit of an exaggeration on the rankings. but wait- who are these rankings from? aren't they useless anyway?

I took McNabb becuase he was the best player available, and I was confident I could use him in a trade to get a better player then one that was available in the draft at that time.

so you already knew you were going to trade a lesser player for a better player. c'mon...

Oh we're going down that road are we, the guy who was happy to get Culpepper (how'd that work out for you?) and Reggie Bush in the second round. Great selections! I wonder how it will feel to lose to Jing, someone who hasnt even subbed Davis out of his lineup when he is on ir.

I'm remain happy with my roster. i'm not going to base my hopes on how the fantasy season will turn out on just the 1st week. i guess i'd feel some added confidence if i can ripoff another gm though

Ripping apart my autodraft roster is pretty lowbrow for you lol.

Your deal for Gore was even worse! You've come up with all this importance about running backs, and you just traded a wr for a rb. Sure, the projected ranking might not reflect a bad deal, but theres no way you arent getting the better of that trade.

you should have vetoed it then if you felt so strongly about me ripping myself off

but yes- i did indeed follow my strategy and added another Rb to the roster. i traded an aging WR who isn't the #1 passing option on his team and plays with a "rookie" QB for a RB who is the clear cut running option. the extra productive RB will come in handy for the bye weeks. 3 other guys in our league seem to like the deal

Top 12 picks are running backs. Brown is at 6. Manning is at 21! McNabb isn't even in the top 50. And you want me to believe what fantasy experts have to say? Gime me a break.

lol ok so you find 1 site that ranks him higher and all of a sudden it's gospel

I hope you enjoy having Culpepper and Reggie Bush for your season. Smile

thanks. is benson for trade

Culpepper tore his ACL last year, and Bush is a rookie.

At least Bush is the most valuable rookie. Letz see if Super mario can run for 60 yards for a TD for Houston

and the same could be said for Miami's passing game. in fact, this discussion is useless if you continue to play this "until they hit the field" card.

Of course the same could be said for the passing game. At this point its all speculation.

yes you are in denial. Even if Brown had not gained many yards in the game, Miami still decided to give it to him near the goaline against a top ranked defense. I think that says enough about the Coaching staff's confidence in/willingness to use the running game

The second td was pretty much forced by Culpeppers should have been red zone interception. Once again, it seemed like it was about a 5:2 ratio of Daunte plays to Brown plays inside the 10 yard line. If you think thats "confidence" or "willingness" from the Miami coaches in Brown, then I think you're confused.

and yes, Daunte is a good threat but he just happens to have the worst fumble ratio for a QB in the history of the NFL

That doesn't even get brought up much anymore and I forgot about it completely. But to think that Culpepper wont be given any qb sneaks is far fetched.

i'm getting tired of debating vs the randomn chance and pessimism side.

American football is impossible to predict, its all guess work. If you think me saying that Brown is just as likely to not live upto expectations as he is to exceed them is pessimistic, then I feel sorry for you. This is not Sean ALexander or LT that was traded for McNabb. It's ronnie brown. He didnt even get 1000 yards last season and had 4 rushing touchdowns. Granted this is a new situation, all the predictions and hype don't mean a thing in terms of production.

Is he a good fantasy running back? Yes, otherwise I wouldnt have been interested in him.
Is he a sure thing fantasy stud? No.
Is he worth being traded for Mcnabb? Yes.

ok so i'll just assume you'll be sending me Peyton Manning for my kicker.

Ronnie Brown is not on Mannings level, and any kicker in the history of the nfl is on McNabbs level.

Did Lewis being in jail affect his performance?

Probably, but thats in hindsight. Did it really effect his fantasy value before the season last year? No. And thats my point comlpetely.

and i'm assuming you're aware the K.C drafted another RB with their 1st round pick in 2003 and around that time, fantasy 'experts' were already suggesting to handcuff the KC RB situation

And that running back was LJ, and it took him how many seasons before he was even in the running for a starting job? For alot of years he wasnt even the 2nd string guy.

Ronnie Brown is better fantasy player because i flipped a coin and Ronnie Brown scored 2 TD while Parker didn't. i wouldn't veto a Parker for McNabb trade. and using the worst case scenario doesn't make your opinions any more valid

You have constructed an entire arguement about the situation for Ronnie Brown has made him better. The passing game, the defense, the offensive line etc etc, now you want to say simply becuase Brown had two td's he is a much better fantasy prospect. Then you criticise me for saying we have to wait before we can judge if its a bad trade or not.

i didn't offer you Matt Jones

Sorry, Greg Jones was offered, which is even worse.

lol that's a bit of an exaggeration on the rankings. but wait- who are these rankings from? aren't they useless anyway?

Thats my point altogether, a fantasy experts opinion is useless, its all guesswork.

so you already knew you were going to trade a lesser player for a better player. c'mon...

No, I saw the abdunance of running backs being taken in the first 2 rounds, but the lack of qb's taken. Did I do the right thing? Yes. I got a better running back then if I had passed on McNabb. But its not as if I drafted Jerome Bettis and traded him for Brown.

I'm remain happy with my roster. i'm not going to base my hopes on how the fantasy season will turn out on just the 1st week. i guess i'd feel some added confidence if i can ripoff another gm though

How exactly was it a rip off? Its not like I went to jugs and said "hey, guess what, you made a big fuck up by drafting brown, look at his numbers from last season, but I can help". I explained to him the situation with Ricky Williams. I told him there was every chance that brown would be a solid fantasy player this year. But I also told him that in my opinion he needed help at qb, and I needed help at rb. And believe it or not, I would have made the same deal had I been in his shoes.

Ripping apart my autodraft roster is pretty lowbrow for you lol.

Hey you started the cheap shots. If you can't handle a bit of talking in a fantasy league then thats not my problem.

you should have vetoed it then if you felt so strongly about me ripping myself off

You got Gore, so you didnt get ripped off. And I'm not going to Arvin it and veto a trade just becuase I can.

but yes- i did indeed follow my strategy and added another Rb to the roster. i traded an aging WR who isn't the #1 passing option on his team and plays with a "rookie" QB for a RB who is the clear cut running option. the extra productive RB will come in handy for the bye weeks. 3 other guys in our league seem to like the deal

So you admit to ripping him off, but openly criticise the McNabb/ Brown deal? Double standard.

lol ok so you find 1 site that ranks him higher and all of a sudden it's gospel

If it was gospel I would have drafted Lamont Jordan ahead of Manning. And its the only site I looked at becuase its in yahoo. I dont need someone else to tell me how to make my own team, I'll make my own decisions. If you need help building your team, then by all means use it.

thanks. is benson for trade Wink

Everyone is always available.

Just one point that sums it all up:

Week 1:
McNabb (who Jugs recieved), 22 points
Ronnie Brown (who I recieved) 14 points

compare that to another deal...

Frank Gore (who Air Gordon recieved) 18 points
McCardell (who cwebb recieved), he's yet to play but theres no way he'll get double digits.

You tell me who ripped who off.

Frank Gore for Keenan McCardell!! Thats a joke, Gore is the starter this year for the niners. Gore has looked really impressive, and the coaches are high on him. Cwebb got ripped.

Of course the same could be said for the passing game. At this point its all speculation.

and your speculation is based off of the “I could either live or die tomorrow” theory

The second td was pretty much forced by Culpeppers should have been red zone interception. Once again, it seemed like it was about a 5:2 ratio of Daunte plays to Brown plays inside the 10 yard line. If you think thats "confidence" or "willingness" from the Miami coaches in Brown, then I think you're confused.

Lol what’s there to argue anymore? you said Miami wouldn’t go to Brown near the goaline/Brown would become a weaker player but Brown was given the opportunity and scored twice against a top ranked defense

I can make an argument that Miami was using the pass to set up the run haha

That doesn't even get brought up much anymore and I forgot about it completely. But to think that Culpepper wont be given any qb sneaks is far fetched.

It wasn’t brought up much because he had the season ending injury last year. Just because you forgot about it, doesn’t make it untrue. I never said he won’t get any qb sneaks. I don’t even know why you’re bringing it up - I merely mentioned how he has the worst fumble ratio in nfl history

American football is impossible to predict, its all guess work. If you think me saying that Brown is just as likely to not live upto expectations as he is to exceed them is pessimistic, then I feel sorry for you. This is not Sean ALexander or LT that was traded for McNabb. It's ronnie brown. He didnt even get 1000 yards last season and had 4 rushing touchdowns. Granted this is a new situation, all the predictions and hype don't mean a thing in terms of production.

Is he a good fantasy running back? Yes, otherwise I wouldnt have been interested in him.
Is he a sure thing fantasy stud? No.
Is he worth being traded for Mcnabb? Yes.

Again i'm getting tired of debating vs the randomn chance and pessimism side. a nfl player’s fate is not cut and dry like a coin landing on heads or tails

Ronnie Brown is not on Mannings level, and any kicker in the history of the nfl is on McNabbs level.

Not according to your theories. btw- my kicker outscored Manning today

Probably, but thats in hindsight. Did it really effect his fantasy value before the season last year? No. And thats my point comlpetely.

Yes it did. Many draft sites had him ranked lower then what he was in the past. but then again you discount what fantasy experts say so it's impossible to gauge a players perceived value with you

And that running back was LJ, and it took him how many seasons before he was even in the running for a starting job?

and not coincidentally Johnson’s role increased after Holmes came off yet another 300+ carry season.

For alot of years he wasnt even the 2nd string guy.

Maybe you forgot or it doesn't get discussed anymore but i should mention Johnson was drafted in 2003, not 1993. Johnson is entering his 4th season in the NFL. His rookie year he indeed was low on the depth chart. i don't know about you but there wasn't a lot of time between his rookie year and his soph season where he was 2nd string and showed a glimpse of things to come (580yrds/9td's). i think that comes out to it taking a whopping 1yr to be 2nd string

and he did pretty ok last year too

You have constructed an entire arguement about the situation for Ronnie Brown has made him better. The passing game, the defense, the offensive line etc etc, now you want to say simply becuase Brown had two td's he is a much better fantasy prospect. Then you criticise me for saying we have to wait before we can judge if its a bad trade or not.

I was being ironic.

Thats my point altogether, a fantasy experts opinion is useless, its all guesswork.

I was being ironic again. i'll just agree to disagree here. you don't win fantasy football by taking stabs in the dark with all your picks

No, I saw the abdunance of running backs being taken in the first 2 rounds, but the lack of qb's taken. Did I do the right thing? Yes. I got a better running back then if I had passed on McNabb. But its not as if I drafted Jerome Bettis and traded him for Brown.

How do you know you did the right thing? You have to wait until the player hits the field. I can use your nauseating ass backwards argument on you too lol. In fact I’m not sure if there’s anything to discuss because of your free spirit fantasy theories. and it's even more difficult since you contradict yourself by occasionally using yahoo's fantasy ranking system in attempts to validate your opinions. make up your mind and stick too it

How exactly was it a rip off? Its not like I went to jugs and said "hey, guess what, you made a big fuck up by drafting brown, look at his numbers from last season, but I can help". I explained to him the situation with Ricky Williams. I told him there was every chance that brown would be a solid fantasy player this year. But I also told him that in my opinion he needed help at qb, and I needed help at rb. And believe it or not, I would have made the same deal had I been in his shoes.

It is a ripoff. Read my earlier posts. But it’s just my opinion and some others have shared the same one. But who cares? Obviously if you didn’t think of it or forgot about it, it doesn’t exist

Hey you started the cheap shots. If you can't handle a bit of talking in a fantasy league then thats not my problem.

I sure can handle anyone taking shots at my roster, even it was done by autodraft. But to say my team is screwed after one NFL game is pretty lame.

And while we’re at the cheap shots- you have to admit it- if you saw a team with the carolina backfield as the starting RBs and then Benson as a backup, you'd have a few laughs. or maybe not, i'm not sure of your rankings system

You got Gore, so you didnt get ripped off. And I'm not going to Arvin it and veto a trade just becuase I can.

so what now? You’re actually agreeing to the running backs are important myth?

So you admit to ripping him off, but openly criticise the McNabb/ Brown deal? Double standard.

I was simply explaining the logic behind the trade. Now I didn’t have to explain or sell the trade offer to the Gore owner *ahem*. I made the offer, he liked it, we did the trade. Magic. If you thought it was an unfair trade, you could have put cast your vote for a veto on the trade (not veto the trade altogether… which I wasn’t suggesting in the 1st place) rather then bitch and moan about the trade after the veto deadline passed

If it was gospel I would have drafted Lamont Jordan ahead of Manning. And its the only site I looked at becuase its in yahoo. I dont need someone else to tell me how to make my own team, I'll make my own decisions. If you need help building your team, then by all means use it.

You claim you don’t need websites, rankings or fantasy experts to help you make your team… you’ve completely written them off

And now your using an article from yahoo to support your argument? c'mon

In the end, it’s me that has to set the lineup, but it’s very helpful to have a few articles to reference to. imo Fantasy websites are quite useful, especially since I don’t get to watch all the games, see what kind of system each team is running, and other meticulous things. i'm not as smart as others who are able to have a complete master ranking system based on who knows what

Maybe if i'm able to land Jones, i'll trade for Benson too

Just one point that sums it all up:

Week 1:
McNabb (who Jugs recieved), 22 points
Ronnie Brown (who I recieved) 14 points

compare that to another deal...

Frank Gore (who Air Gordon recieved) 18 points
McCardell (who cwebb recieved), he's yet to play but theres no way he'll get double digits.

yeh because 1 week's worth of games is the perfect sample size to determine this. so Josh Brown for Peyton Manning would actually be a ripoff for me since Brown outscored him this week

i hope the enthusiasm lasts the entire fantasy football season

and your speculation is based off of the “I could either live or die tomorrow” theory

To a point. I always like to have a backup plan, and to look at things from all angles. The NFL is always the toughest league to predict anything in, and alot of the Ronnie Brown hype is just irrational.

Lol what’s there to argue anymore? you said Miami wouldn’t go to Brown near the goaline/Brown would become a weaker player but Brown was given the opportunity and scored twice against a top ranked defense

I said that Culpepper would take away goaline opportunities from Brown, not take all of them away from him. I also said that after the first game and Browns 2 td's, that I might be wrong about that.

But that wasn't even disputed until the first game. Don't pretend that you argued against it before he got those touchdowns. Using hindsight vs a prediction is a cheap way to win a debate.

I can make an argument that Miami was using the pass to set up the run haha

Than make it. It should be entertaining to see somthing absract...

It wasn’t brought up much because he had the season ending injury last year. Just because you forgot about it, doesn’t make it untrue. I never said he won’t get any qb sneaks. I don’t even know why you’re bringing it up - I merely mentioned how he has the worst fumble ratio in nfl history

Wtf, you brought it up, not me. I conceeded that point, its solid. I remember all the talk about him having small hands and that.

I seriously don't know you're intentions in this: To have an objective discussion or to re word my points to better suit your case.

Again i'm getting tired of debating vs the randomn chance and pessimism side. a nfl player’s fate is not cut and dry like a coin landing on heads or tails

You've been a fan of this game longer then me. You should know that just as many things can happen negatively to a player as they can positively.

Not according to your theories. btw- my kicker outscored Manning today

You don't even know my theories .

Yes it did. Many draft sites had him ranked lower then what he was in the past. but then again you discount what fantasy experts say so it's impossible to gauge a players perceived value with you

You goto draft sites? Can't you think for yourself.. But seriously, my projections are not impossible to guage. Just becuase it's not dependant on numbers and I use my own opinion doesn't mean it's bad. You may not agree with it, but it works for me at least.

Remember last years nba fantasy league? In the draft, Jae nearly took Iverson ahead of Kobe. I told him theres no way he should, and he made the decision to go with Kobe. Going off the season prior, the fact they had lost Butler and still had no pg, it would have made sense from a numbers point of view to take Iverson. But Jae's smart, he looked beyond that and made absolutely the right choice.

and not coincidentally Johnson’s role increased after Holmes came off yet another 300+ carry season.

Only becuase I'm bored, I looked up Shaun Alexanders career stats, and here are his attempts after his rookie year

2nd year: 309
3rd year: 295
4th year: 326
5th year: 353
6th year: 370

Now thats 5 + years and he averages well over 300 attempts per season. Holmes had 3 seasons of 300 + attempts. According to your hindseight, is Alexander overdue for a breakdown like Holmes? Or is simply that its impossible to predict certain things from numbers alone? Holmes demise was not predicted, and I benifited big time becuase of it becuase I had LJ on my team.

Maybe you forgot or it doesn't get discussed anymore but i should mention Johnson was drafted in 2003, not 1993. Johnson is entering his 4th season in the NFL. His rookie year he indeed was low on the depth chart. i don't know about you but there wasn't a lot of time between his rookie year and his soph season where he was 2nd string and showed a glimpse of things to come (580yrds/9td's). i think that comes out to it taking a whopping 1yr to be 2nd string

How long did it take Willis Mgahee to become the starter? You're whole paragraph has no real point.

How do you know you did the right thing? You have to wait until the player hits the field. I can use your nauseating ass backwards argument on you too lol. In fact I’m not sure if there’s anything to discuss because of your free spirit fantasy theories. and it's even more difficult since you contradict yourself by occasionally using yahoo's fantasy ranking system in attempts to validate your opinions. make up your mind and stick too it

For starters, when did I use yahoo's rankings to prove any point? Second of all, I never said I'm right with anything. I'm confident that the mcnabb/brown deal was fair becuase the risk/reward is equal on both sides, and it helps both teams rosters.

I sure can handle anyone taking shots at my roster, even it was done by autodraft. But to say my team is screwed after one NFL game is pretty lame.

Hey you started the cheap shots and also the conclusions after one week. Remember the trash talk in yahoo? "r.brown, 2 tds some bust".

And while we’re at the cheap shots- you have to admit it- if you saw a team with the carolina backfield as the starting RBs and then Benson as a backup, you'd have a few laughs. or maybe not, i'm not sure of your rankings system

Oh theres no question my running backs were weak. But I prefer having Gates and Chicago defense to a should of been 10th round running back becuase people are following a trend and selecting them way too early. But I'm confident in deshawn foster this season, and williams is purely insurance for if foster gets injured. Benson was just a luck pick. If Thomas Jones gets injured, he will be very productive.

so what now? You’re actually agreeing to the running backs are important myth?

I never said they aren't important. What I've always said is there is an over hype of them. If you believe in Lamont Jordan ahead of Peyton Manning becuase Jordan is a rb, well that just proves my point.

I was simply explaining the logic behind the trade. Now I didn’t have to explain or sell the trade offer to the Gore owner *ahem*. I made the offer, he liked it, we did the trade. Magic. If you thought it was an unfair trade, you could have put cast your vote for a veto on the trade (not veto the trade altogether… which I wasn’t suggesting in the 1st place) rather then bitch and moan about the trade after the veto deadline passed

The same could be said about the McNabb/ Brown deal, but yet you still whinge about me ripping him off. At least I told jugs the possibility of brown being good and mcnabb being bad.. I wonder if you did the same to cwebb? I doubt it.

You claim you don’t need websites, rankings or fantasy experts to help you make your team… you’ve completely written them off

And now your using an article from yahoo to support your argument? c'mon

I used that article to show how bad fantasy experst opinions are, and how people shouldnt look at the projected rankings as a be all and end all in determining if a trade is fair or not.

In the end, it’s me that has to set the lineup, but it’s very helpful to have a few articles to reference to. imo Fantasy websites are quite useful, especially since I don’t get to watch all the games, see what kind of system each team is running, and other meticulous things. i'm not as smart as others who are able to have a complete master ranking system based on who knows what

I know you're being a smartarse, but its just my opinion that i base my rankings on.

yeh because 1 week's worth of games is the perfect sample size to determine this. so Josh Brown for Peyton Manning would actually be a ripoff for me since Brown outscored him this week

Once again, you're being a hypocrit. Do you know remember the comment made in trash talk after the steelers/ dolphins game?Thats only one game as well.

Wow. I'm glad I'm not involved in this...

Wow, this trade thing has gotten WAAAY overblown. Both sides agreed to it, what's the big deal?

To a point. I always like to have a backup plan, and to look at things from all angles. The NFL is always the toughest league to predict anything in, and alot of the Ronnie Brown hype is just irrational.

I’d like to have backup plans myself. Actually the NFL(and college football) is perceived by many gamblers, including myself, as one of the easier sports to bet on
There may be some hype but when it comes to down it, because of what I have mentioned already, the chances of him having a successful season are greater then him having a bad season.

But that wasn't even disputed until the first game. Don't pretend that you argued against it before he got those touchdowns. Using hindsight vs a prediction is a cheap way to win a debate.

Originally you were debating that the Miami passing game would make Brown a weaker. You didn’t mention Culpepper doing sneaks until AFTER the game IIrc

Than make it. It should be entertaining to see somthing absract...

Nah I’ll pass. This discussion is already long enough

Wtf, you brought it up, not me. I conceeded that point, its solid. I remember all the talk about him having small hands and that.

Didn’t seem like you were conceding from how I read it. If anything it sounded like you tried deflecting attention from it by mentioning that I supposedly said that “Culpepper wont do get any QB sneaks”. My mistake I suppose

I seriously don't know you're intentions in this: To have an objective discussion or to re word my points to better suit your case.

i’m trying the former. At least I’m not being selective with what I’m responding to

You've been a fan of this game longer then me. You should know that just as many things can happen negatively to a player as they can positively.

That’s a pretty damn big umbrella statement. Could you further elaborate on it

You don't even know my theories

Exactly. So how are we supposed to have a decent discussion when comparing player value? Lol I can say player X is top 10 then you’ll counter and say he could have a bad season though and is overrated by the so called experts

You goto draft sites? Can't you think for yourself.. But seriously, my projections are not impossible to guage. Just becuase it's not dependant on numbers and I use my own opinion doesn't mean it's bad. You may not agree with it, but it works for me at least.

I can’t agree with it at this point since you’re not consistent with it. I don’t care to discuss subjects regarding k bryant, especially in the nba offseason lol. But I’ll just assume you agreed that Jamal Lewis was ranked lower when he got out fo jail

Now thats 5 + years and he averages well over 300 attempts per season. Holmes had 3 seasons of 300 + attempts. According to your hindseight, is Alexander overdue for a breakdown like Holmes? Or is simply that its impossible to predict certain things from numbers alone? Holmes demise was not predicted, and I benifited big time becuase of it becuase I had LJ on my team.

You’re fooling yourself if you believe were there wasn’t a growing number of critics questioning if Holmes can stay healthy/have another awesome season. 2004 it was already being suggested that you should grab Johnson in the later rounds if you drafted the Priest. And last year, it was suggested by many that you grab Johnson immediately in the 2nd round if you drafted Holmes.

As far as Alexander, who knows. But it’s obvious that the amont of carries Holmes was doing was taking a big toll on him

How long did it take Willis Mgahee to become the starter? You're whole paragraph has no real point.

No point? You said “for a lot of years he wasn’t even the 2nd string guy”. He being Larry Johnson, the same Larry Johnson who was 2nd string in his 2nd year! C’mon….

For starters, when did I use yahoo's rankings to prove any point? Second of all, I never said I'm right with anything. I'm confident that the mcnabb/brown deal was fair becuase the risk/reward is equal on both sides, and it helps both teams rosters.

Using yahoo’s big board earlier in the discussion.. you don’t claim to be right? So what’s the point of this entire discussion? and I’m confident the deal is unfair and there was more risk on his side. So what now lol?

Hey you started the cheap shots and also the conclusions after one week. Remember the trash talk in yahoo? "r.brown, 2 tds some bust".

Lol I was the one who started making cheap shots based on one week’s of games? You forget so soon- you’re the guy who started the trash talk mentioning something about Culpepper after the first game of the season. tell me exactly what was my first cheap shot at your team anyway

I never said they aren't important. What I've always said is there is an over hype of them. If you believe in Lamont Jordan ahead of Peyton Manning becuase Jordan is a rb, well that just proves my point.

Who is overhyping them? I’m sure not. I didn’t even say the Jordan/Manning thing so don’t even bother speculating. In fact, in a money league I’m in (10 teams), I drafted 9th and was surprised/happy to nab Manning with the 12th pick

The same could be said about the McNabb/ Brown deal, but yet you still whinge about me ripping him off. At least I told jugs the possibility of brown being good and mcnabb being bad.. I wonder if you did the same to cwebb? I doubt it.

It’s not the same since I put in the veto vote and started discussing about it while there was that 2 or 3 day wait for the GM’s to veto it.. I have no clue why you’re shitting on my trade after the voting period past.

Whinge? Lol I’m not even complaining about it- half of this argument is about how I think Brown will be good vs you saying he will be bad lol

And I didn’t have to do a sell job to make the trade nor bother giving him some warning (hello that’s a sign of it being a ripoff when you’re doing this). Gore scores a bunch of points against a pretty poor defense and all of sudden people start forgetting that he does have a bad injury history and plays on a poor team with a young QB.

I used that article to show how bad fantasy experst opinions are, and how people shouldnt look at the projected rankings as a be all and end all in determining if a trade is fair or not.

Yeh- you pick 1 site out of the many big sites out there and automatically assume this one website speaks for the whole fantasy f-ball analyzing community. I never said this whole end all, be all talk. Again- it’s very useful as a guide

I know you're being a smartarse, but its just my opinion that i base my rankings on.

What are you basing your rankings on?

Once again, you're being a hypocrit. Do you know remember the comment made in trash talk after the steelers/ dolphins game?Thats only one game as well.

Dude I was only joking about trading Brown for Manning since you’re using 1 week’s worth of games to show the perceived lopsidedness of Mcnabb/brown and Gore/Mccardell

and as i type this out, Chester Taylor scores a TD

double post yeh.. but i wanted to make an entirely different post..

Indy: How about Chad Pennignton for one of your RBs or WRs?

I’d like to have backup plans myself. Actually the NFL(and college football) is perceived by many gamblers, including myself, as one of the easier sports to bet on

I have to disagree. With the parity in the league, I think it's nearly impossible to make season long predictions before the season starts.

There may be some hype but when it comes to down it, because of what I have mentioned already, the chances of him having a successful season are greater then him having a bad season.

You're saying a different thing to what was originall discussed, and thats if Brown would live upto the projected rankings or not. Theres no way I would have traded for him if I felt he was going to have a bad season. however, people were expecting him to have Edgerin James type production. Surely you can see the difference...

Originally you were debating that the Miami passing game would make Brown a weaker. You didn’t mention Culpepper doing sneaks until AFTER the game IIrc

I said that the passing game will take attempts away from brown. I stand by that comment. And I suggest you look at previous posts within this thread, becuase I talked about goaline situations well before the game. I'd be an idiot to say that after the game, becuase of what happened in the game where brown had his 2 td runs from inside the 10.

But just an interesting point, take those 2 runs away and brown gets a total of two fantasy points. We're not talking about 50+ yard runs. 2 runs for a combined 13 or 14 yards. Think about that and also think about the line between a good game and a bad game.

i’m trying the former. At least I’m not being selective with what I’m responding to

Are you kidding? You want me to respond to "nah i dont want to elaborate on this point" or "my mistake i suppose" type of replies?

That’s a pretty damn big umbrella statement. Could you further elaborate on it

Sure. I'm referring to the intagibles associated with fantasy football. For everything that can work in a players favour, there can and usually is somthing that works against him. Opposition, experience, teamates, team strategy, it can all work in a players favour but also a players disadvantage.

Look at 4 running backs: LT, Alexander, LJ and Ronnie Brown

LT, with Bree's gone the dependence on him has gone up. He will get more attempts, but his average is bound to go down. He is bound to be fatigued and Michael Turner could be the winner of the whole situation.

Alexander, with Hutchinson gone looked old and worn out against detroit of all teams, and could have been the bust of the year. But with Branch, that may just prevent teams loading up on him too much. As good as Hassleback is, I doubt that the seahawks will become pass first just yet. It could happen though.

LJ, the offensive line is depleted and with Green out, he could be in trouble. It doesnt matter how good one rb is, a defense will always win that.

But then with Ronnie Brown, the run game was only established last year out of neccesity, and they also had another stud back there with Ricky Williams, so the production went through the roof for the dolphins run game. But with culpepper, there is every indication they will be run first.

So with lt, lj, and alexander, we see problems because of lack of talent for them, and with ronnie brown a problem becuase of more talent around him.

Exactly. So how are we supposed to have a decent discussion when comparing player value? Lol I can say player X is top 10 then you’ll counter and say he could have a bad season though and is overrated by the so called experts

You dont think ronnie brown is overated? Or Lamont Jordan?

As far as Alexander, who knows. But it’s obvious that the amont of carries Holmes was doing was taking a big toll on him

You're changing your arguemetn again. Your initial point was people were predicting Holmes' demise becuase of the rushing attempts, but they havent shown the same concern with Alexander and he has had more attempts.

No point? You said “for a lot of years he wasn’t even the 2nd string guy”. He being Larry Johnson, the same Larry Johnson who was 2nd string in his 2nd year! C’mon….

Blaylock was.

Using yahoo’s big board earlier in the discussion.. you don’t claim to be right? So what’s the point of this entire discussion? and I’m confident the deal is unfair and there was more risk on his side. So what now lol?

When? I didnt. I said how flawed it was. I never used it to validate the brown/mcnabb deal becuase it goes against what im saying.

Lol I was the one who started making cheap shots based on one week’s of games? You forget so soon- you’re the guy who started the trash talk mentioning something about Culpepper after the first game of the season. tell me exactly what was my first cheap shot at your team anyway

... you said about who i drafted. The culpepper comment was after that, and more of a comment towards cwebb who had the steelers defense.

Who is overhyping them? I’m sure not. I didn’t even say the Jordan/Manning thing so don’t even bother speculating. In fact, in a money league I’m in (10 teams), I drafted 9th and was surprised/happy to nab Manning with the 12th pick

You're defending fanatsy experts who put him ahead of manning. And im also very happy to get manning. I wont be trading him straight up for anyone right now.

It’s not the same since I put in the veto vote and started discussing about it while there was that 2 or 3 day wait for the GM’s to veto it.. I have no clue why you’re shitting on my trade after the voting period past.

I'm the one that actuallyt brought the trade to everyones attention here in this post. As for your trade, I have no problem with it. The way you have double standards is what i cant stand. As i said before, look at the first weeks productions, you and jugs got the better out of the two deals, and you were by far the biggest winner yet also the biggest whiner.

Yeh- you pick 1 site out of the many big sites out there and automatically assume this one website speaks for the whole fantasy f-ball analyzing community. I never said this whole end all, be all talk. Again- it’s very useful as a guide

I saw one article and that was enough for me.

Just a few thoughts on my mind :

The Washington Redskins are in for another horrible season that resembles the disaster of 2004. The offense struggled again under Mark Brunell , and yesterday's game was eerily similiar to losses in 2004. Typical close games , but the Redskins unable to pull it out in the 4th.

As long as Brunell is the quarterback of the Washington Redskins , the team WILL NOT make the Super Bowl. It is no coincidence that the Redskins offense is horrible as long as he is quarterback , with the exception of last year. If the Redskins continue to struggle offensively , they have NO chance of winning at Dallas next Sunday. The Redskins could easily be 0-2 this season , and this is very upsetting.

-----------

And the Chargers blow out the Raiders yet again , any hope of improvement that might have been shown in preseason has vanished. I guess Drew Brees leaving for New Orleans didn't hurt the Chargers after all.

I think you posted in the wrong football thread, but hey what the fuck, only me and Air gordon are talking fanatsy football anyway .

In 2004, remember that Brunell was injured for a few games, Ramsey was garbage and the impact that moss had last season. He wasnt there in 04. One game can be scary, but don't write your season off yet. And Dallas' offense didnt look good either. 3 ints from bledsoe? Not good. All the questions about if Owens would be ready, maybe they should have been directed at the qb instead...

I have to disagree. With the parity in the league, I think it's nearly impossible to make season long predictions before the season starts.

We’re not on the same thing here. I thought we’re talking gambling in general… not just season long predictions. What are we debating over again lol?

You're saying a different thing to what was originall discussed, and thats if Brown would live upto the projected rankings or not. Theres no way I would have traded for him if I felt he was going to have a bad season. however, people were expecting him to have Edgerin James type production. Surely you can see the difference...

I thought we’ve been debating on Brown having a good season vs Brown having a bad season. I didn’t mention anything about him having an Edgerin James type production, whatever that is projected out to be. I surely haven’t quoted specifically a fantasy site mentioning Brown will have a James type production either. Let’s not bring other “people’s” expectations of Brown when I haven’t mentioned them in the 1st place

I said that the passing game will take attempts away from brown. I stand by that comment. And I suggest you look at previous posts within this thread, becuase I talked about goaline situations well before the game. I'd be an idiot to say that after the game, becuase of what happened in the game where brown had his 2 td runs from inside the 10.

So what- you’re backing away from your comments of saying Brown will be a weaker player because of the passing game. I agree obviously there could be more pass attempts now that a better QB on board, but it would be more beneficial to Brown (and the passing game) since the team now has a balanced offense. Indy sure agreed as do many others. This happened in the Arizona vs SF game. SF started their safeties up so Warner was going deep to his receivers. Then SF adjusted and put their safeties back then James started doing damage

But just an interesting point, take those 2 runs away and brown gets a total of two fantasy points. We're not talking about 50+ yard runs. 2 runs for a combined 13 or 14 yards. Think about that and also think about the line between a good game and a bad game.

Yes when TD’s are awarded 6pts in our league. And you can also think since Miami will be giving him the ball near the goal line, there’s will be that chance he’ll salvage a subpar game into a good one by getting a TD or 2

Are you kidding? You want me to respond to "nah i dont want to elaborate on this point" or "my mistake i suppose" type of replies?

You could have replied to my comments about how having productive Rb’s which was in response to your Rb myth post or how I didn’t have to do a sell job on/give a warning to a GM to get a trade done

You're defending fanatsy experts who put him ahead of manning. And im also very happy to get manning. I wont be trading him straight up for anyone right now.

Lol when? i had mentioned most of the sites i had seen had Manning ahead of Brown, rightly so

Sure. I'm referring to the intagibles associated with fantasy football. For everything that can work in a players favour, there can and usually is somthing that works against him. Opposition, experience, teamates, team strategy, it can all work in a players favour but also a players disadvantage.

So exactly what are the negative intangibles that Brown will be facing that’s supposed to equal all the positive signs of Brown having a good season?

You dont think ronnie brown is overated? Or Lamont Jordan?

I think brown is worthy of 1st round pick/a no.1 type RB, especially in a 14team league. Call it whatever you want. I don’t know why this Jordan guy is being brought up

You're changing your arguemetn again. Your initial point was people were predicting Holmes' demise becuase of the rushing attempts, but they havent shown the same concern with Alexander and he has had more attempts.

So Holmes was/responding different to the amount of carries then Alexander. You want to keep on splitting hairs. Let’s not get away from what was being disputed in the first place (and something you didn’t respond to 2 times now)- starting in 2004, there were already questions marks regarding Holmes holding up/repeating another superstar type season. And in the fantasy columns, the experts were already suggesting picking up Johnson if you drafted Holmes. Or maybe you’ll just fail to acknowledge this since it goes against you’re thinking

Blaylock was.

. Yes in Johnson’s rookie year but it’s debatable exactly who was the #2 but Johnson was the more efficient/productive player. Regardless, neither 1 nor 2 years is a ton of time as you claimed. That was the point I was making, which you failed to realize

When? I didnt. I said how flawed it was. I never used it to validate the brown/mcnabb deal becuase it goes against what im saying.

Or since it is one of many sites showing Brown was perceived to have much more value

... you said about who i drafted. The culpepper comment was after that, and more of a comment towards cwebb who had the steelers defense.

Lol ok so I rip your RB situation and you go off and make some blanket statement about Culpepper based on the results of one game (and I guess the idiot remark was more towards the steelers defense too lol)... but whatever.. not much trash talking coming from your side after i took high points even with my top guys stinking

I'm the one that actually brought the trade to everyones attention here in this post. As for your trade, I have no problem with it. The way you have double standards is what i cant stand. As i said before, look at the first weeks productions, you and jugs got the better out of the two deals, and you were by far the biggest winner yet also the biggest whiner.

you? yahoo gives you the option to get emailnotifications of league trades/offers being made to your team. Also there is a link to view/veto the trade on the "my team" page.

..i don’t have double standards compared to yours. Saying “now you tell me who ripped off who” is your way of saying I got the better end of the trade is just ridiculous.

Calling me a whiner is just childish after you’re the one proclaiming vetoing shouldn’t even exist in fantasy football. Lol I wasn’t even the first one to dispute this trade. I forget who but he posted on the league site to veto it lol

And actually since I “was bored”, I asked every GM in my money league if they would trade Brown for McNabb, listing both rosters. The results: all 9 said no. I even asked a few fantasy experts via email and they agreed. In fact a few were even saying that this was collusion and that it would shift the power of the league. But hey- we’re just a bunch of guys with some fantasy experience. You’ll just find some way to discount it anyway. However I think what’s most surprising and telling is that not one them said they would go for the trade/said it was a fair deal. Ah well

I saw one article and that was enough for me.

Says the guy trying to have an OBJECTIVE conversation

I don’t know how much further/productive this discussion will go. I think that a lot of your disagreements are with other people’s/expert’s projections, which you think are overrated/aren’t valid for whatever reason (which I still don’t understand since you don’t objectively view them. I mean you find what you think is one inaccurate thing about it and you automatically assume the rest of the projections are wrong)… and you seem to be taking up this argument with me for some reason or another.

And throughout this whole debate- you haven’t once given you own ranking of Brown or McNabb, you have consistently just mentioned that everyone overrates RBs and that there’s this big chance of him having a bad season.. no fantasy sites can be relied on.

God damn, my team is terrible. I wish I had been there for the draft, I think the only guys I have that I would have taken are Santana Moss and maybe Ben Roethlisberger.

I think you posted in the wrong football thread, but hey what the fuck, only me and Air gordon are talking fanatsy football anyway .

In 2004, remember that Brunell was injured for a few games, Ramsey was garbage and the impact that moss had last season. He wasnt there in 04. One game can be scary, but don't write your season off yet. And Dallas' offense didnt look good either. 3 ints from bledsoe? Not good. All the questions about if Owens would be ready, maybe they should have been directed at the qb instead...

Whoops , didn't realize this was a fantasy football thread.

i've traded Chad Pennington to Qballer for Derrick Mason and R McMichael.

just giving the heads up for anyone that wants to veto this trade- You've got 2 days

i'm also open to debating the fairness or lack of it in this deal

for the record I made the offer because I don't think McNair will cut it for the whole season.

We’re not on the same thing here. I thought we’re talking gambling in general… not just season long predictions. What are we debating over again lol?

I dunno, we get off topic quite easily...

I thought we’ve been debating on Brown having a good season vs Brown having a bad season. I didn’t mention anything about him having an Edgerin James type production, whatever that is projected out to be. I surely haven’t quoted specifically a fantasy site mentioning Brown will have a James type production either. Let’s not bring other “people’s” expectations of Brown when I haven’t mentioned them in the 1st place

Thats fair enough. But to me, when other people have put him in the top 10 fantasy players, they probably expect big production. I compared him to James becuase Miami will probably be a pass orientated system, but can still make teams pay with the run, like indy the past few years.

So what- you’re backing away from your comments of saying Brown will be a weaker player because of the passing game. I agree obviously there could be more pass attempts now that a better QB on board, but it would be more beneficial to Brown (and the passing game) since the team now has a balanced offense. Indy sure agreed as do many others. This happened in the Arizona vs SF game. SF started their safeties up so Warner was going deep to his receivers. Then SF adjusted and put their safeties back then James started doing damage

And look at James' numbers for week 1: 73 yards, 1 td. Sure they arent bad numbers, but lets be serious, the deep threat passing game didnt help his fantasy value at all.

Yes when TD’s are awarded 6pts in our league. And you can also think since Miami will be giving him the ball near the goal line, there’s will be that chance he’ll salvage a subpar game into a good one by getting a TD or 2

I hope you're right with this, but im not sold. Especially since it took a should of been pick in the redzone to goto brown the second time for a td.

You could have replied to my comments about how having productive Rb’s which was in response to your Rb myth post or how I didn’t have to do a sell job on/give a warning to a GM to get a trade done

I'm not saying running backs arent important... but look at week 1 and tell me mcnabb for brown wasnt fair.

Lol when? i had mentioned most of the sites i had seen had Manning ahead of Brown, rightly so

And I mentioned the one that had it the other way. Surely you'd agree that around half of these guys in our league rely on "expert" opinions as to what they're doing. I'm saying someone else's opinion(no matter how irrational it is) should be taken as gospel, which some people do.

So exactly what are the negative intangibles that Brown will be facing that’s supposed to equal all the positive signs of Brown having a good season?

How many times do you want me to go through them exactly? I'm sick of rewording what ive said 3 or 4 times earlier.

I think brown is worthy of 1st round pick/a no.1 type RB, especially in a 14team league. Call it whatever you want. I don’t know why this Jordan guy is being brought up

Becuase he's rubbish (lamont jordan). He's an ok rb, but not first round material. I dont think you can say a players worth is based on the draft position.

So Holmes was/responding different to the amount of carries then Alexander. You want to keep on splitting hairs. Let’s not get away from what was being disputed in the first place (and something you didn’t respond to 2 times now)- starting in 2004, there were already questions marks regarding Holmes holding up/repeating another superstar type season. And in the fantasy columns, the experts were already suggesting picking up Johnson if you drafted Holmes. Or maybe you’ll just fail to acknowledge this since it goes against you’re thinking

I dont remeber that, and unless if you provide somekind of evidence of these opinions prior to the draft, i wont respond to it.

. Yes in Johnson’s rookie year but it’s debatable exactly who was the #2 but Johnson was the more efficient/productive player. Regardless, neither 1 nor 2 years is a ton of time as you claimed. That was the point I was making, which you failed to realize

Being productive doesnt mean you're higher in the depth chart. Billy Volek is more productive then kerry collins or vince young, yet he is 3rd in tennesse.

Or since it is one of many sites showing Brown was perceived to have much more value

Exactly. Perception is not reality. 22 points is not 14 points.

Lol ok so I rip your RB situation and you go off and make some blanket statement about Culpepper based on the results of one game (and I guess the idiot remark was more towards the steelers defense too lol)... but whatever.. not much trash talking coming from your side after i took high points even with my top guys stinking

You made a similar blanket statement about ronnie brown after one week! And yeah you took high points. All stars was 2nd of all teams, does it mean anything? Also, who was your highest single player performer? Frank Gore. So while you criticise my deal for the "percieved" unfairness, your highest performer was someone who you ripped from cwebb, so shut the fuck up already. You got a much better deal, and yet you stil complain the most.

you? yahoo gives you the option to get emailnotifications of league trades/offers being made to your team. Also there is a link to view/veto the trade on the "my team" page.

Here, as in nlsc. I did bring it to everones attention in this thread.

..i don’t have double standards compared to yours. Saying “now you tell me who ripped off who” is your way of saying I got the better end of the trade is just ridiculous.

Brown fro mcnabb, -8 from my point of view
gore for mcardell, +18 from your point of view.
End of discussion.

And actually since I “was bored”, I asked every GM in my money league if they would trade Brown for McNabb, listing both rosters. The results: all 9 said no. I even asked a few fantasy experts via email and they agreed. In fact a few were even saying that this was collusion and that it would shift the power of the league. But hey- we’re just a bunch of guys with some fantasy experience. You’ll just find some way to discount it anyway. However I think what’s most surprising and telling is that not one them said they would go for the trade/said it was a fair deal. Ah well

Like that means anything to me. Perception isnt reality. I wonder if they'll have the same opinion after the season.

And throughout this whole debate- you haven’t once given you own ranking of Brown or McNabb, you have consistently just mentioned that everyone overrates RBs and that there’s this big chance of him having a bad season.. no fantasy sites can be relied on.

I think mcnabb will have the better season.

God damn, my team is terrible. I wish I had been there for the draft, I think the only guys I have that I would have taken are Santana Moss and maybe Ben Roethlisberger.

Make some trades, pick up free agents etc.

i've traded Chad Pennington to Qballer for Derrick Mason and R McMichael.

just giving the heads up for anyone that wants to veto this trade- You've got 2 days

i'm also open to debating the fairness or lack of it in this deal

Comming from the guy who actually voted against a deal. You're getting served in this deal .