Is there a reason for war?

"No one wins, it's a war of men"...

I have a question to you, americans. What is the television showing to you about the war? I say that because here, in Brasil, we have a jornalist who wrote a book about how the american press cover the Golf War (1991) and september eleventh. They didn´t show all the truth and I believe that it could be happening again.

Obviously I believe everyone has a different opinion of war, everyone shows what is convenient for themselves but now I would say this: Your journalist could be a lier who wrote a book based on how the american press cover the Golf War & Sept. 11th, What the hell do you want the Press to say when I lived both of them and I saw it with my eyes, do you think this is press? Maybe the Towers are still there and the american press made them disappear, is that what you or your journalist is saying?.

If we watch tv, we just do like you do, I personally don't watch CNN but if I do, I'm going to watch the same thing, shooting, bombing, soldiers being captured & tortured from either side, what is that truth you are talking about? Sadam wanted CNN in 91, he got his ass kicked with all the CNN reporters, that's what you saw if you watched it, if your journalist watched it better than us, then he should say the truth he's talking about not start saying that the Press here doesn't say the complete truth, they just show what is on our interests, if it is gold, gold we get, if it is oil, oil we get, if it's sadam ass kicked, that's what we will get.

US went to war in 91 to take Sadam out of Kuwait who were invaded by him and that's what they did, if it was oil or gold, that's your opinion. They don't have a Simon Bolivar going all over trying to defend their land, so they have other countries who care what is going on there. I really feel angry US gets in so many trouble trying to defend others but that's how it is, as a leader nation, that's what they do. Cause they defend Israel?, then what is it cause obviously is not Gold or Oil?, is it that US is nazy like you mentioned the israeli pres is? Plus, Israel massacres Palestina?, Now I do believe your tv is showing just what is convenient for yourself. Go and ask that Journalist to write about the truth of Palestina and tell me what he will say.

Well, you clearlly didn't understand what I said. I said that american press have not shown all the facts that happen in these two incidents. I never said that they lie to you. And I didn't say that they will lie.
Clearlly de Golf war happend for a good cause. I never said that it wasn't.

This brazilian jornalist wrote this book not about his vision of the facts, he never lie. He shows how american press have hidden some facts about Golf war and september eleventh. Maybe not to shock the population. I really don't know the reason. Once again. I never said that american press lied to you. And this jornalist (I'm sorry, I forget his name, but I'll remenber) was in Golf war and was in NY that day. He knows what happend. And some brazilians who lived in NY that time, always called to Brazil to know more informations about what was really happening. By the way, I rarelly watch CNN.

And finally, for you and the other guy, Israel do massacres Palestina. Sharon gets all the possible help from USA. Of course, the palestinian terrorists kills lots of innocent people from Israel, but Israel do the same, but with much more power. I'm not inventing anything. Sharon is a neo-nazist. His acts speaks more than words. Analyze what he really do.

You can doubt of what I'm saying, becouse you probably never heard about it, never saw it. I can't do anything. I'm just telling you what is happening. If you don't know or will never know that, sorry. If you don't trust me, sorry.

If the press in my country shows something that is not good for USA it's because something is wrong. Brazilian media do almost everything what USA want. They don't do it if it's a really bad thing. And I know that it's impossible to trust in television.

Lots of informaton I get from the real free press. The press that has nothing behind it, nobody who could censure informations or not inform for wrong interests.

Unfortunatly it's not really funny. It's sad when we've reached a point in our society where people can be so brain washed as to believe that one single ehtnic origin is the source of all important terrorism all over the world.

well if all "important" terrorism around the world is 9/11, Israel, and the Phillipines...then yes, all is done by muslims...if you count Ireland as "important" terrorism then no...

and how can you state terrorism as "important"....what's so "important" about terrorism...is it our necessaty...terrorism can be major, it can be critical, but not "important"

it's sad when we've reached a point in our society where people can be so brain washed as to have suuch a terrible vocabulary, and such an undeveloped idea of terrorism...

if you count Ireland as "important" terrorism then no...

And I do...

and how can you state terrorism as "important"....what's so "important" about terrorism...is it our necessaty...terrorism can be major, it can be critical, but not "important"

Here's a defintion of important: Strongly affecting the course of events or the nature of things; significant.

Now I'd say that the word in question makes sense in that context....

even if this war is about OIL and the US does gain control of some of Iraq's OIL...think about this, US citizens, all gas prices will go down...this war will benefit you!


Iraq poses a threat to both the US and Israel, and as a citizen of Isreal, knowing that the disarment of Iraq would save my country from terrorist attacks...i support the US %100 percent in this war and in all of their decisions...

on the first point: I'll stick a gas pump nozzle up my ass before i support people dying for my financial gain. Besides, the oil spoils will go to the bush family and there texas millionaire buddies, not me.

on the second point: do you think the kind of people who would perform acts of terrorism like september 11 are going to terrorize LESS after this war? do you think that is going to make them throw in the fucking towel? its shit like this war that fucking CAUSES september god damn 11.

Last edited by f.t.w. on Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

well...i count ireland as political opposition...

meanwhile...how can terrorists attack without any financial/militaristic aid eyy?

And this jornalist (I'm sorry, I forget his name, but I'll remenber) was in Golf war and was in NY that day. He knows what happend. And some brazilians who lived in NY that time, always called to Brazil to know more informations about what was really happening.

So did I, I lived the Golf War & I was blocks away that Sept. 11th and that means nothing. What is exactly that he knows what happened that we don't? That the FBI had gotten calls announcing the sucess and they didn't pay atte?, we know that, the press reported that. Again, what is it that he wrote that you believe American press didn't say?, I would like to know, since that is a good info, you should make it clear.

Plus, why would Brazilians start calling Brazil to know what happened in USA if they were living here?, are you trying to say that their tv was damaged or something?, or is it that they really believe that we don't have local news or that the press here doesn't say anything at all? I'm sorry but that sounds stupid. How the hell am I going to call some other country to find out what really happened 5 blocks away from where I work?

Of course, the palestinian terrorists kills lots of innocent people from Israel, but Israel do the same but with much more power

Exactly, so you don't have to use just Israel but you have to use also palestinian. Do you think USA was expecting iraq to stay with their hands in their pocket while US was bombing?. NO. Israel has to respond to those attacks as well. Also, try to read about that Arafat guy, the Palestinian, read about his past, who he really is and you will understand why they always have problems.

You can doubt of what I'm saying, becouse you probably never heard about it, never saw it. I can't do anything. I'm just telling you what is happening. If you don't know or will never know that, sorry. If you don't trust me, sorry.

Well, you don't have to believe all people say. You either believe it the first time or watch it with your own eyes. I don't have to believe you cause you might be saying just what your journalist said. So far I believe Arafat is a terrorist and he covers other terrorists as well, but maybe you won't believe me. What the hell, you won't believe it even when you see it with your own eyes. And I do prefer a neo-nazy since that is in blood than having as a partner promoter for the terrorism.

If the press in my country shows something that is not good for USA it's because something is wrong. Brazilian media do almost everything what USA want. They don't do it if it's a really bad thing. And I know that it's impossible to trust in television.

And I'll tell you this again. I don't care what Brazilian shows on TV, I don't care if its a different version. But when you come and say that what I saw with my eyes "not tv" was not true or not the whole truth, something wrong is going on. US tv just show what is convenient for them? I already explained that to you. However, notice something, I did watch it on my own, I didn't need a reporter from Paraguay to come and show what they wanted, that's what I'm trying to explain to you. However, Just come with the info you believe was behind the scene, cause obviously you are trying to say there's a hidden fact and that info would be really appreciated.

Lots of informaton I get from the real free press. The press that has nothing behind it, nobody who could censure informations or not inform for wrong interests.

LOL. I'm going to tell you something "again", you believe what you want. If you read in that press there are OVNIs, that's up to you to believe it. Just cause they print that doesn't mean that's a valid article. Reporters like that Journalist of your country, do give their opinion and express their feeling but that doesn't mean that they are right. Yes, they don't have to hide anything but that's it "their own opinion", let's give an hurra for them. What a good feeling is the freedom of speech.

I'm not all that concerned about isreal/palestine at this point in my life, but i feel compelled to point something out. The jewish people lost isreal a long, long time ago and were a loosely-connected band of gypsies in the early 20th century. in the interest of power, not justice or what is right the u.s. and u.k. helped sneakily take the land that is now isreal from the unsuspecting palestinian people.

arafat is no saint, but this good vs. evil shit is over-simplifying a many fucked up situations around the world, including the isreal/palestine thing. i'm no foreign policy expert, but in my eyes:

the us is oil-dependant and predominantly christian.

the middle east is oil-rich and predominantly muslim.

therefore we have a holy crusade with oil substituting for the grail.

isreal isn't righteous, it is a willing pawn of western powers.

Brazilian people was calling to here because they thought that american press could be not telling the real situation in NY.

I never said that american tv is damaged or you don't have local news or your press doesn't say nothing at all! Read what I said and stop putting words in my mouth! I'm a jornalism student and I know so much about press, including the american. I'm not that stupid, a person who write things that came from no place.

I'm not telling american tv hide that twin towers colapses or something. This is clear. I'm telling about things that can be hidden. And I'm not telling that this occur only in your press. It occurs in my country too. I'm not telling that your press is worse than mine or the one from other country.

Once again, what that journalist said was not his opinion. Facts happend (specially in Golf War) and wasn't presented by american press. But not only american press. My press didn't presented some stuff too.

Yes, I know about Arafat past. I know about his conections with terrorism. I'm not stupid. But what Israel does with Palestina is much worst than what Palestina does. Once again. If you don't know that I can't do anything.

I'm not reproducing or telling what that jornalist have said. I read everithing I can. Since american analists, people from tha right, from left, capitalists, comunists, everybody. But I don't care his opinion. I only see tha facts. What really happened. Things that it's impossible to deny. But if you don't believe in this - and you don't have to, as you said - sorry. Continue living in this world that you think it's the real one.

I never said that what was printed is a valid article. I'm a jornalism student and I do know that. In fact, I hate most of brazilian press. They sell themselves for anything. They write what is convenient. But there's a little part of it that you can believe. They are transparent. Another thing that contribut with this is the way they act. I don't know if this happen in US, but here the press never make a denonciation about corruption or something that could be bad to politics. The jornalists who do it, with inquestionable facts are prosecuted, etc. The brazilian politics never go to jail for his acts. But still, there's a part of the press who is not happy with that an keep doing denounciation and stuff, even with all the persecution. I don't know if this occurs in US, but this kind of press has no other interests but inform the population. Even if the news is not good for them or his ideals. They are completelly trustful.

Once again, what I'm saying is not my opinion; it's a matter of know the facts and reproduce them. If you don't know this facts or don't believe in them, sorry.

I'm not all that concerned about isreal/palestine at this point in my life, but i feel compelled to point something out. The jewish people lost isreal a long, long time ago and were a loosely-connected band of gypsies in the early 20th century. in the interest of power, not justice or what is right the u.s. and u.k. helped sneakily take the land that is now isreal from the unsuspecting palestinian people.

arafat is no saint, but this good vs. evil shit is over-simplifying a many fucked up situations around the world, including the isreal/palestine thing. i'm no foreign policy expert, but in my eyes:

the us is oil-dependant and predominantly christian.

the middle east is oil-rich and predominantly muslim.

therefore we have a holy crusade with oil substituting for the grail.

isreal isn't righteous, it is a willing pawn of western powers.

I'm totally agreed with you.

I never said that american tv is damaged... Read what I said and stop putting words in my mouth!

& I never said you did, I'm not putting words in your mouth & I'm not calling you stupid. I asked you if those people's tv were damaged, meaning: those that were calling had no tv or was it damaged?, I never said about american TV, you should read before complaining that others are putting words in your mouth.

I'm a jornalism student and I know so much about press, including the american.

Well, you know about press & I know about War. You are a journalist student who knows a lot about press & I spent 3 years in service in the US Army where the main thing is to get ready for War & Combat and getting the knowledge of why we have to defend our interests, knowledge of past wars and what the up & down were. I don't think your profession has anything to do with what we are talking about to bring that up. Why? cause obviously you are talking to a soldier but frankly you might be talking to the same Israel President without you knowing and it would be disrespectful from your part to start calling him neo-nazist just cause he doesn't talk the way you want.

I'm not reproducing or telling what that jornalist have said... But if you don't believe in this - and you don't have to, as you said - sorry. Continue living in this world that you think it's the real one.

I'm going to stop posting here since I just made one simple question and all you have been doing is evading it, telling me "if you want don't believe me" but what should I believe or not if you have said nothing, now you get my point?. You said that a Journalist said what really happened, I asked you what was that and your answer has been the same, "if you want don't believe me". I get the feeling you are just making that up.

, I'm going to stay around whenever you decide to post that fact you think people don't know.

sorry mate...but your above post is pointless...you're just repeating yourself, having no message...

you're a journalism student? so what? i can easily say "i lived 8 years in Isreal so i know more than you" or "i've been to the US a shitload of times, so i know more than you" or i can just say "i got a 175 IQ, so everything i say is so much smarter than you..."

these points are valid...you majoring in journalism, and knowing more than us because of that...no....

Ok. When I said I'm a jornalism student my point was I know about press. Only about press. I never mean that I'm more inteligent than anybody. About what I'm keep saying - american press, Israel president - I'm not giving my opinion. When I give my opinion you will know. But I give up. If you want to know about that look for another way to get information. If you have all the real information this discussion wouldn't happen.

It could be frustrant realize that the information you have it's not the truth or something is missed.

I don't judge level of inteligence. I don't have this capacity.

I have no reason to make anything up.

Once again. If you want to live in the world that you think is the real one, do it.

Here is a discretion of the book, in portuguese. Now I'm not in the mude to translate but later, who knows. The jornalist is Carlos Dorneles and the name of the book is "Deus é Inocente" (God is innocent)

Until I translate this text you could try to get some information about it, instead of say that I'm making it up or that I don't have a point.



Carlos Dorneles desvenda artilharia da guerra manipulada


Juliana Resende/BR Press

(São Paulo, BR Press) - Que a cobertura de guerras - com isenção e imparcialidade - sempre foi uma utopia para a imprensa ninguém duvida. Phillip Knightley, em seu livro A Primeira Vítima, um "clássico" no assunto, não nos deixa mentir: ali, ele atesta que a primeira vítima numa guerra é a informação - leia-se a liberdade de expressão. O que é duvidoso quando não absurdo, chocante e beirando o non sense, é a maneira tosca como a notícia jornalística foi manipulada, desencontrada e ridicularmente divulgada pelos meios de comunicação, nos últimos conflitos (fortemente) armados que presenciamos no final do século 20 e no início do 21: as guerras do Golfo e Afeganistão, tendo como protagonistas os Estados Unidos e como coadjuvantes Iraque, Osama Bin Laden e o Talebã.

De olho nesse carnaval de censura descarada e de press releases da Casa Branca - rarissimamente a imprensa ocidental se deu ao trabalho de ir ver o estrago que acontecia in loco, debaixo dos bombardeios cerrados que aparentam assépticos videogames --, o jornalista brasileiro Carlos Dorneles também mandou bala: compilou os maiores disparates publicados na mídia impressa internacional e brasileira, que foram classificados de "cobertura", nos conflitos pós-11 de setembro. Está tudo lá, no livro Deus é Inocente (Editora Globo, 276 páginas, R$ 32,00). Se os fatos são assustadores, mais ainda é o modo como a hegemonia política norte-americana conseguiu se impor - sem a mínima resistência da imprensa.

Quase que cronologicamente, Dorneles reproduz manchetes e trechos de matérias, cujo tom ufanista pró-EUA chega a ser vergonhoso. Trata-se de uma prática tão comum adotar o tom norte-americano como o lado "civilizado" que sempre tem razão - e que, efetivamente, manda -, que o leitor ficará corado quando não irado. E, talvez, mais esperto agora que há a possibilidade de acontecer uma nova guerra entre EUA e Iraque. Será mais um show de parcialidade e aceitação. Posto isso, não é de se espantar que as justificativas do governo Bush na "guerra contra o terror" sejam reproduzidas na imprensa ocidental em geral sem cortes - e muito menos análise.

Mais uma vez, grandes conglomerados de mídia vão ficar um só house organ globalizado e institucionalizado de serventia a Washington? Muito provavelmente.

Mais um motivo para ler Deus é Inocente. Com a facilidade de ser em nossa língua - esse tipo de bibliografia ainda é rara no Brasil --, o livro revela a realidade sobre a Guerra do Afeganistão não mostrada pela mídia. E mostra como ela pode vender ideologias, publicar fatos não comprovados, transformar religiões e povos em ameaças para toda a civilização.

Combate terceirizado

A obra traz também, em painel assombroso, os resultados das investidas do poderio militar norte-americano contra uma nação já devastada pelo regime Talebã; o perigo do "achismo" quando aliado ao preconceito, refletido no caso dos prisioneiros de guerra enjaulados e de olhos vendados em Guantánamo; a guerra do terceiro milênio, cuja sofisticação é a terceirização de massacres - Dorneles usa e descreve com propriedade a "guerra terceirizada", tendo os EUA como "contratantes" e a Aliança do Norte como "contratada"; a eterna "retaliação" de Israel contra os homens-bomba palestinos; o, finalmente, que levou a atenção do mundo a se voltar para o Iraque, e em que isso beneficia o presidente George W. Bush.

Antes de ler o livro, leia a entrevista a seguir.

Por que o livro chama-se Deus É Inocente (A Imprensa, Não é o subtítulo)?

Carlos Dorneles - Porque quando vemos alguém que usa um turbante e reza no chão é mais fácil inferiorizá-lo. Mas isso é invenção dos homens e Deus nada tem a ver com tanta discriminação. Na verdade, o título do livro é uma frase de José Saramago.

Por que escrever um livro desses, que denuncia negligências de sua própria categoria?

Carlos Dorneles - Sempre tive essa vontade de falar dessa característica da imprensa - de achar que o leitor é idiota, que ele não acompanha os fatos. A mídia fabrica teses impunes, contraditórias, de que tudo pode ser dito. Com o 11 de setembro, achei que era uma grande oportunidade. A manipulação ideológica acontecia de maneira ainda mais fácil.

Na sua opinião, é crescente a parcialidade - quando não unilateralidade -- na cobertura de conflitos contemporâneos?

Carlos Dorneles - O que está em cheque é a relação da imprensa com o poder - ainda mais com o poder avassalador norte-americano. A imprensa tem feito o jogo do poder. Nas guerras o controle da informação é maior. E acho que essas guerras recentes transcenderam quaisquer outras em censura. E a imprensa se superou em conivência, passividade e aceitação de uma só verdade - a dos EUA.

Essa aceitação é fruto de tempos em não há tempo para os questionamentos?

Carlos Dorneles - . A versão do mais forte é a aceita - o jornalista também é vítima do massacre das informações, como qualquer cidadão. Mas o profissional da informação é também muito passivo e acredita ideologicamente naquilo que é dito, talvez até inconscientemente. Cada vez os jornalistas ficam mais na defensiva. Desde o Iraque achamos que não veríamos nada mais censurado. Eis que veio o Afeganistão.

Por que os EUA fazem guerras com tanta desenvoltura?

Carlos Dorneles - Porque não tem mídia vigilante e nessas guerras não há praticamente baixas entre norte-americanos - só dos "inimigos". É muito fácil para os EUA fazerem isso. A receita da guerra norte-americana é bombardeio pesado a grandes altitudes, para evitar qualquer tipo de possibilidade de atingir os aviões. Ações no solo quase nunca acontecem. Os EUA correm risco mínimos. Para tanto, terceirizam as guerras, como fizeram com os soldados da Aliança do Norte - foram eles que pegaram no pesado no Afeganistão, para depor o Talebã.

E a imprensa brasileira, que não tem tradição em coberturas de guerra? Como driblar o cerco dos generais e assessores ligados ao poder que patrulham as informações?

Carlos Dorneles - Como um país periférico, o Brasil fica totalmente dependente das notícias que recebe de fora, basicamente de agências internacionais. A primeira solução é o jornalista debater mais suas práticas - ele se acostuma a ser "testemunha" dos fatos e sua arrogância não permite o questionamento. O jornalista não se critica e não gosta de criticar. A imprensa é muito prepotente. Apesar disso, há excelentes profissionais na mídia brasileira. O jeito é não aceitar e tentar contornar a censura, mesmo que de maneira low profile. Jornalista deve oferecer resistência - mas não dá para bater sempre de frente.

Você sofreu censura em seu trabalho na Guerra do Golfo? (Dorneles não conta experiências pessoais no livro)

Carlos Dorneles - Sim, não só eu como a BBC, a CNN e todo mundo que estava baseado em Jerusalém, onde estavam caindo mísseis Scud mandados pelo Iraque. Na produtora onde gerávamos e editávamos as matérias para mandar para o Brasil haviam censores militares - dois oficiais. Eles queriam que todos os jornalistas mostrassem o material antes de enviar para as respectivas emissoras. Era assim mesmo, na cara dura. Um dia, consegui driblar e mandamos cenas de bombas nucleares israelenses. As imagens foram censuradas pelo Ministério do Interior de Israel. Um censor me chamou e disse que esse tipo de coisa não podia acontecer. Achei que eu ía ser deportado. Mas eu disse a ele que, como jornalista, minha obrigação era mostrar os fatos como eram. Ficou nisso.

Por que você só falou da mídia impressa e não incluiu a eletrônica no seu livro? Algum desconforto com a TV Globo, para a qual trabalha?

Carlos Dorneles - Não incluí TVs porque não existem arquivos independentes de imagens no Brasil, como existem de material impresso, como o Arquivo do Estado de São Paulo. Eu não estava trabalhando na Globo quando escrevi esse livro.

O que você achou do papel da TV Al Jazeera, com sede no Catar, durante a Guerra do Afeganistão?

Carlos Dorneles - Achei muito interessante. A Al Jazeera expôs a fragilidade de nossa imprensa ocidental. A CNN sempre atuou sozinha - com suas imagens de luzinhas na Guerra do Golfo e só. Ninguém nunca viu imagens do massacre dos civis iraquianos, nem afegãos. De repente, aparece uma TV mostrando sangue e dando voz para os perdedores, os miseráveis. Depois de acusarem a emissora de ser "terrorista", até bombardearam a sede da Al Jazeera em Cabul. Mas ela conseguiu ter seu papel e se reerguer (recentemente a emissora assinou um contrato de distribuição com a BBC).

Será que precisamos de uma Al Jazeera em cada país? É possível que a cobertura ocidental de conflitos no Oriente Médio seja menos tendenciosa?

Carlos Dorneles - O início da atitude para melhorar a qualidade e confiabilidade da informação é escancarar para o público saber que ela vem sendo totalmente manipulada. Depois, falta a imprensa ir ao front e não ficar só no hotel. Mas também não basta só estar presente - só ver não adianta, é preciso refletir sobre os fatos. Ser testemunha de fato é o primeiro passo.

Você acredita numa nova Guerra contra o Iraque?

Carlos Dorneles - Não sei. Há uma inédita oposição da opinião pública e dos aliados. É a primeira vez que os EUA são contestados em uma iniciativa bélica.

* O autor: Gaúcho de Cachoeira do Sul, Carlos Dorneles nasceu no dia 2 de janeiro de 1954. Formou-se em jornalismo pela Pontifícia Universidade Católica (PUC) do Rio Grande do Sul. Em Porto Alegre, trabalhou nos jornais Folha da Manhã e Zero Hora e na RBS TV. É jornalista da Rede Globo de Televisão desde 1983, sendo correspondente internacional da emissora em Londres (1988-1990) e Nova York (1991-1992). Deus é Inocente é seu primeiro livro.

Ok. When I said I'm a jornalism student my point was I know about press. Only about press. I never mean that I'm more inteligent than anybody. About what I'm keep saying - american press, Israel president - I'm not giving my opinion. When I give my opinion you will know. But I give up. If you want to know about that look for another way to get information. If you have all the real information this discussion wouldn't happen.

It could be frustrant realize that the information you have it's not the truth or something is missed.

I don't judge level of inteligence. I don't have this capacity.

I have no reason to make anything up.

Once again. If you want to live in the world that you think is the real one, do it.

Who the FUCK do you think you are saying that some idiotic brazilian journalist, who has never even seen Isreal knows more about the situation there than me...i lived there for 8 fucken years and go there every year for the summer....but no, in your opinion, some idiotic journalist has "all the information"...

I don't judge level of inteligence. I don't have this capacity.

this you proved when you started posting here...

Once again. If you want to live in the world that you think is the real one, do it

there's a diffrence between think and know...you think that the shit that journalist wrote is right...i know it's wrong...

I'm not giving my opinion

then what the fuck are you doing? quoting the press? and you yourself say that the press doesn't have tbe right facts. You know the brazilian press...good for you...the press never tells the complete truth, that's why i don't base my knoladge on the press.....

while you, you opinion less, ignorant idiot keep on shouting out senseless crap you think of as "facts" because some JOURNALIST wrote it in his book...

I never said that Carlos Dorneles wrote anything about Israel. He wrote about Golf War, Sep 11th and Afeganistain war. About Israel what I said is facts. If you don't know the fact that Israel massacres Palestina, sorry. If you ask that to any Politic Scientist who is neutral in this topic, he would say exacly the same thing. Of course you know Israel better than me. But your government and his allieds would never show how they do it. Once again. In a neutral discussion everyone would say that.

I'm not giving my opinion about anything. I'm saying what happen. It's completelly diferent thing.

And why Carlos Dorneles is an idiot. You don't know what he think about Israel/Palestina case. And he don't know all the information about anything.

When I said I don't have capacity to judge anyone inteligence is becouse no one has this capacity. Inteligence is not a thing that you can stipulate. Ireally believe that I can't do it. And I believe that nobody can.

I don't base my knowledge in the press too. I serach for information in lots of sources. not only in the press.

And don't think that those facts I wrote are facts becouse a person wrote. They are facts becouse they happened. If you don't have this kind of information you don't believe in them. I wouldn't. Fortunatelly I have it.

Don't be angry with me. Don't chide me. It won't work. I'll continue saying stuff that are true, even if you don't believe.

I don't want to fight with anybody. I just want to share acquirements with all of you.

Pavel, Steve, take it easy on the guy... He clearly doesn't speak English very well and is not expressing himself in a properly manner. I don't disagree with what he said, but I think he could have expressed himself in a better way. Maybe he could avoid that "trust in me, I know what's right" thing...

Mazorca, I'm not sure if I talked to ya on ICQ or something, if I know you... But you should not try to tell people your truth is better than theirs. I mean, everyone believe in what they wanna believe. If there is an US journalist, that doesn't mean he tells people what he want them to believe in. The same works for the Brazilian journalist. Carlos Dornelles is a very well-known journalist here guys, he works for the main TV channel here in Brazil and has been around for years. But everything he writes about what he lives and sees, it's his vision and opinion of things. People should read what he wrote and get their own conclusions. It's not like everything he writes is the omnipresent (spl) truth.

Just take it guys, Pavel, Steve, Mazorca (seu viado ) and everyone else. We are trying to speak in the same language so everyone can communicate to one another; this way some miscommunications are bound to happen... But just let me say, not a single person in the whole world holds the entire truth history... The interpretation of the facts, the reflexion means a lot too.

Hope this helps.

well...show me the info...show me the facts?

as far as i'm concerened all that you're saying is bullshite...unless you prove and support it...

Funny how everyone asked for a link.

Hei guys, I'm not gonna post here anymore. I don't wanna cause more trouble.

Tales, valeu pelo apoio. E viado deve ser você!

I can dig it Mazorca. I'm not sure if its what you were trying to say, but I think only fools believe that propaganda is used only by the enemy.

Other Axis of Evil Wannabees, by John Cleese
Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil", Libya,
China and Syria today announced that they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil", which they said would be more evil than the Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis.
President Bush warned of in his State of the Union address. Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new Axis as having, for
starters, a really silly name. "Right. They are just as evil...in their
dreams!" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded, although they conceded they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil.
"They told us it was full," said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. "An
axis can't have more than three countries", explained Iraqi President
Saddam Hussein. "This is not my rule, its tradition. In World War II you
had Germany, Italy and Japan in the evil Axis. So, you can only have
three, and a secret handshake. Ours is wickedly cool."
International reaction to Bush's Axis of Evil declaration was swift, as within minutes, France surrendered. Elsewhere, peer-conscious nations rushed to gain triumvirate status in what had become a game of geopolitical musical chairs. Cuba, Sudan and Serbia announced that they had formed the "Axis of Somewhat Evil", forcing Somalia to join Uganda and Myanmar in the "Axis of Occasionally Evil", while Bulgaria, Indonesia and Russia established the "Axis of Not So Much Evil Really as Just Generally Disagreeable". With the criteria suddenly expanded and all the desirable clubs filling up, Sierra Leone, El Salvador and Ruwanda applied to be called "Axis of Countries That Aren't Worst But Certainly Won't Be Asked To Host The Olympics". Canada, Mexico and Australia formed "Axis of Nations That Are Actually Quite Nice, But Secretly Have Some Nasty Thoughts About America", while Scotland, New Zealand and Spain established the "Axis of Countries That Want Sheep To Wear Lipstick". "That's not a threat, really, just something we like to do", said Scottish Executive First Minister Jack McConnell.
While wondering if the other nations of the world weren't perhaps making fun of him, a cautious Bush granted approval for most axes, although he
rejected the establishment of the "Axis of Countries Whose Names End in
Guay", accusing one of its members of filing a false application. Officials from Paraguay, Uraguay and Chadguay denied charges.
Israel meanwhile, insisted it didn't want to join any Axis, but privately world leaders said that's only because no one asked them.

I can dig it Mazorca. I'm not sure if its what you were trying to say, but I think only fools believe that propaganda is used only by the enemy.

Ok, I'll answer only this one. I don't believe in that. And I totaly agree with you.