The Debate Thread: Prohibition (Drugs/Alcohol)

[benji]

Using another thing proposed in the original thread, let's throw out a new thread for this week. (Since immigration seems to have run out, like the other threads, its weekly clock. This idea has still been positive in my opinion.)

I'm going to start the thread discussing alcohol, which I think is something we have more than a consensus in regards to, while the actual thread will probably be more about the drugs aspect.

Anyway, here in the United States the alcohol situation is a patchwork. Some states, like mine (Michigan), sell alcohol pretty much everywhere. Gas stations, grocery stores, liquor stores, bars, restaurants, etc. The price is set by the state based on retailer size and the only restrictions are that you can't buy after last call (2am, although towns are allowed to extend this on their own) nor on Sunday before noon. We're actually one of the most free states in terms of liquor, easily top five if not better. However this is not the same everywhere. In some states you can only buy beer in grocery stores, and all liquor must be bought from a state-owned retailer. Other states require it all from a state-owned retailer. Some states have a patchwork within a patchwork. For example Kentucky has dry counties, no liquor what-so-ever can be sold within the county, others only let you buy wine or beer and never on Sunday, but then you can possibly go to the next county over and find (often on the border) something like: http://www.liquorbarn.com/

And that's not getting into the various home-brewing issues. Or this.

I read something the other day, about a country which had no liquor laws or taxes for a period, and this person said it was $1.85 for a fifth of vodka. (The cheapest crap you can buy here by comparison is about $6-7 for a fifth depending on the retailer.) I must note there is a point where you are just paying for the bottle, and it's lower than most people think outside of select liquors. Especially vodka.

In regards to drugs, California is in a position where they are about to move into this situation regarding marijuana, and other states will follow soon. I know a few other countries or localities are also moving in this direction regarding marijuana if not other drugs. (If they have not already got there.) In regards of the U.S. it will be interesting as a state will be challenging the federal government over a felony crime.

I've rambled enough I say, I'm sure you all have your own ideas.

[NovU]

Ain't got much to say on State's liquor regulations, but I can tell you that, having been in liquor business for a long time myself, I always envied how the distribution and retailers are privatized instead of government mopolizing the market. Here in BC, even the liquor store clerks get paid close to 20 dollars minimum with all kinds of benefits. In other provinces, the system seems to be bit more forgivable, but still consumers in the States can get the liquor at much better price and at more convenience.

As for the drugs, Marijuana industry has been the most consistent economy helper here(BC dopes are known to taste the best!). No wonder, the government doesn't really enforce the laws. Instead, they're considering legalizing it. Wouldn't be a bad idea, since at least those gangsters ran farms will be gone. Meaning those little wanksters on street, selling dopes will be gone as well.

[Jackal]

I think the Netherlands have regulated their policies on soft drugs fairly well, use it for recreational use and we don't have an issue with it. Larger quantities on the other hand is a problem.

Sure it stinks when you're in a closed train with some folks smoking pot, but hey, live & let live I say.

[J@3]

Potheads annoy the shit out of me so I'm hoping it doesn't get legalized. Also the whole potential for psychosis thing.

[benji]

Psychosis? I think you mean maniacal piano playing. Or jumping out the window to your death after your boyfriend beats a college student to death to cover up a high school student he shot!

[J@3]

Wow Kramer was really good on the piano.

[benji]

Speaking of good on the piano. Now that's a minute and a half of great cinema.

[koberulz]

Potheads annoy the shit out of me so I'm hoping it doesn't get legalized. Also the whole potential for psychosis thing.

Everything that annoys you should be illegal?

[J@3]

Problem?

[shadowgrin]

Damn benji for linking that movie. Now must download and watch it in its entirety. Screw YouTube parts, good thing it's under public domain

[benji]

There's also a colorized version that has a commentary track from Mike Nelson of MST3K fame.

[shadowgrin]

Thank you good sir for that delightful info. May Xenu bless you.

[benji]

Came across this regarding that backwards nation to the north:

Of course, many people also don't remember that it was also not legal in Ontario for a woman without a male escort to go into an establishment that served alcohol until about 1970. Nor was it legal for men not escorting women to drink in a room in a tavern with women present. Most establishments had two rooms, a Mens' Room (which not the toilet, although it often resembled one), and another marked Ladies and Escorts.

The Progressive Era sure did produce a bunch of wacky regulations. Too bad so many of them (and the ideas that spawned them) linger and seem to be getting more popular today.

[Paul23]

Both drugs and alcohol need to be outlawed and anyone who uses them thrown in jail for life. Alcohol is just a method for corporations to addict people to something with absolutely no benefit, while drugs are the same just for foreign ILLEGAL corporations. The fact is more people use drugs and alcohol today than in any period in history and just look at the state we have allowed ourselves to be put in. If people were not high on dope or drunk on alcohol they would be able to realize exactly what is being done to them against their will. There is no downside to outlawing these toxic substances.

[el badman]

You're starting to sound like a broken record. Apparently there's one single answer for every thread in this forum...

[shadowgrin]

Both drugs and alcohol need to be outlawed and anyone who uses them thrown in jail for life. Alcohol is just a method for corporations to addict people to something with absolutely no benefit, while drugs are the same just for foreign ILLEGAL corporations. The fact is more people use drugs and alcohol today than in any period in history and just look at the state we have allowed ourselves to be put in. If people were not high on dope or drunk on alcohol they would be able to realize exactly what is being done to them against their will. There is no downside to outlawing these toxic substances.

What's your opinion about smoking Paul23?

[NovU]

Woot. Extremist.

[benji]

What's your opinion about smoking Paul23?

I assume he's against it. The real question is if he wants to go all the way like he does on alcohol and drugs, or if he wants to continue charging the tobacco companies an "entrance fee" so we can use that tax money on crap.

[Wall St. Peon]

Well, Paul23 is a Ph.D so we should listen to him...

Actually, I can name a benefit of alcohol: it helps ugly people to get laid.

[benji]

There's also the health benefits from minor consumption.

[shadowgrin]

So that's how you got some, Shane?

[Fenix]

For me, our (Slovenian) regulation of sale of alcoholic beverages is pretty close to how things should ideally be. Other than the usual (you can't sell alcohol to the underage or to the obviously drunk), it also prohibits sales of alcohol in buildings and on land where educational and health activities are carried out, while strictly regulating sales in sports arenas and stadiums. Prohibition of sales of alcohol depends also on time: stores are not allowed to sell you alcohol between 9PM and 7AM, but no such prohibition - other than for spirit drinks, which you can't sell from the time the place opens and up to 10AM - exists for restaurants, bars, clubs, etc. This - together with threats of very high penalities - enabled us to get rid of the major escesses, while being as liberal as possible, and I think that is the only possible combination as too strong or even total prohibition doesn't eradicate alcoholism, but makes black market of alcoholic beverages for a very profitable business.

As far as soft drugs go, pretty much everything is illegal here. I would at least like marijuana to be legalized. I'm not an user (although I tried it), but I think it passes the test of relative harmfulness: if our society tolerates alcohol as something more or less acceptable, and tolerates it despite its proven negative social consequences, it should marijuana as well.