NLSC Issue - re: Moderators v2.0

Personally, I don't really care if you starve the Ukraine, but since I feel for the people I thought I'd post. I think one of the moderators has become a "NLSC Issue." But I noticed some instances and talked to some people on MSN. Since this is the place to address "NLSC Issues", I think people should bring some things up so we can have a dialogue about what to do to do regarding these grievances.

Follow the rules set for members. You must act in a responsible manner, and follow the rules you have agreed to uphold.

Be fair. Be firm when necessary, but do not impose on a member's rights. Try not to allow any personal bias to control moderating decisions.

Try to resolve conflict before taking action. It is preferable to put an end to a flame and allow the discussion to continue, rather than immediately locking the topic. Locking a topic should be a last resort.

...

As a moderator, you will be expected to sometimes act as a diplomat, a mediator and a police force, but this does not mean you cannot have fun and enjoy discussions in the NLSC Forum. You will however be expected to set a good example for the community and act in a responsible manner.

But remember kiddies. Only constructive criticism is welcome.

man... it's all flowers, rainbows and expanding your mind here at the NLSC. Personally I don't see the problem, but if you want to nit pick then you go ahead and open up the so called constructive dialogue.

*has siezure*

what or whom is this about exactly?

I have no idea what you're talking about, and just because everyone else is doing it

I'm aware of the issue. I am dealing with it privately.

what or whom is this about exactly?

May be a shock, but not you.

Personally I don't see the problem

Why would the Politburo ever see a problem...

I am dealing with it privately.

Why can't it be dealt with publicly? It should be dealt with publicly. Should people not know about decisions and events? Should the people not be able to see the proof and strength of your actions.

Or will you just keep banging the shoe on the table.

Well, i was going go to say this privately, but then i thought why not publicly? Ben shut the fuck up. If Andrew wants to handle it privately, he is allowed to.. Andrew doesn't need to wash the forums laundry publicly just so the people can "see the proof and strength of [Andrew's] actions"

Why would the Politburo ever see a problem...

LOL, I'm part of a dictatorship or communist party now am I?

Quick Andrew, we must shut this fool up... his attempts at stirring trouble are killing the website!!! Our (I say our because of my power ridden position as a poster) regime will fail if we allow people to speak up. Send over some police with batons immediately my good sir!

It should be dealt with publicly.

I would prefer to handle it privately.

Should people not know about decisions and events? Should the people not be able to see the proof and strength of your actions.

Or will you just keep banging the shoe on the table.

The issue is being handled privately to avoid an ugly public scene that is a distraction from regular discussion. There is no evil plan, no conspiracy, nothing sinister at hand. I'm aware of the issue, it is being dealt with privately. That's all I'll say on the matter.

Matthew and Stevan: I appreciate the support, but Ben is entitled to free speech. You are free to disagree, but please acknowledge his right to freely post his ideas. Thank you.

I'm assuming this is about EG?

I'm assuming this is about EG?

It's not about Yohance, and it's not Andrew because he's dealing with it. Who does that leave us with?

i for one would kinda like that some moderator issues would be 'handled with' in public... not all though
i think it would work as a sort of an deterent. it would let people know what will hapen if a member would missbehave.
for some reason, i've never found out what happens with people that break rules and such... it would be nice to do


one more thing, i don't see what EGarret has done wrong... i've always seen him as a great moderator...

Dang..and i thought it was about me...now i dont feel special anymore.

Anyway...i'll echo what Andrew said...how people are dealt with here at the NLSC is the business of the community leaders...and them only. This has nothing to do with the public forum...and thusly shouldn't/will not be dealt with publicly.

..glad that could be cleared up for the confused people.

I really don't think everything should be handle in public on this section, even when it is meant to be for that, but I don't blame anyone who requests it.

Like A. Dahl said, sometimes we don't see what really happens to those breaking the rules, but if they change the way they were acting, then you think someone took care of that matter already & you don't have to see how but you just have to like the results.

one more thing, i don't see what EGarret has done wrong... i've always seen him as a great moderator...

Learning is a process, you even have to learn to be a great mod but everyone has diff. opinions and I respect yours, he's a mod in the NBA sec & General talk, together with some other I never visit, so there you might find enough material to see what was really wrong.

I guess that's it, a learning process, anyways best of luck, in time everything will be fine. (I hope)

I'm assuming this is about EG?

It's not about Yohance, and it's not Andrew because he's dealing with it. Who does that leave us with?

Psch. No. EG is not my problem, I just saw he was having problems with others. I think he could be a good moderator since he has been strict in instances I have found. However, some things needed to be addressed so that he could try and alter his actions to better suit the job. I don't think he should be terminated as a moderator. We all know he's pompous, but I'm sure he cares for the site in his own "twisted" way.

The so-called "dirty laundry" should be public. We should not be forced to be so distant from the events transpiring that affects us. I don't see majority rule and minority rights, but minority rule. Is that what we really want? I think we should tear down our elitist class. Ernest and Yohance's moderation abilities should be put to the people. Then they will have the mandate of the people to moderate. I will personally vote yes for both of them.

LOL, I'm part of a dictatorship or communist party now am I?

This is simplification and dismissal of the problem. There is an elitist class in The Community. I am not claiming that I or even any members of nbalive.org or my other community friends are exempt from it. I'm not saying just you Stevan, along with Andrew and others implied are just it. We all are. This thread is. Look at the people who decide the progression of The Community. It's the same group. We are the only ones that ever are involved in the decisions. We are the only ones who ever opine and have much to any effect. We replace old members with new chosen ones.

Look at Thug's very comments in this thread. "how people are dealt with here at the NLSC is the business of the community leaders...and them only" The people have no say is what the jist of this is. I don't blame Thug and all of us for thinking this way. It's the way this Community has always been done, by every single one of "community leaders." Is this not wrong?

Go ahead, make your snide comments attack me all you want, call me whatever you want. It's fine. But while you ignore the problem, I'm going to find people that want to remedy the stagnation of The Community we have caused. It's not competition between nbalive.org and NLSC, if a competition truly existed, the growth of both sites and The Community would have been exponential.

I don't want the termination of EG's moderation job. That's not my objective like scub thought. My objective is to address problems, and take actions to eliminate them. I would like Andrew to unblock me on MSN, but I guess he won't. I bothered Barnsey to invite him so I could ask about it, then I tried simple NBA Talk. I don't see how we can address the problems of our community if we don't even talk. But it's good he did, because now this discussion is public, so anyone can join.

But alas, "[there isn't] a problem." So, I guess, a lisless path it is.

There was a problem. Now there isnt.

This is simplification and dismissal of the problem. There is an elitist class in The Community. I am not claiming that I or even any members of nbalive.org or my other community friends are exempt from it. I'm not saying just you Stevan, along with Andrew and others implied are just it. We all are. This thread is. Look at the people who decide the progression of The Community. It's the same group. We are the only ones that ever are involved in the decisions. We are the only ones who ever opine and have much to any effect. We replace old members with new chosen ones.

Look at Thug's very comments in this thread. "how people are dealt with here at the NLSC is the business of the community leaders...and them only" The people have no say is what the jist of this is. I don't blame Thug and all of us for thinking this way. It's the way this Community has always been done, by every single one of "community leaders." Is this not wrong?

Go ahead, make your snide comments attack me all you want, call me whatever you want. It's fine. But while you ignore the problem, I'm going to find people that want to remedy the stagnation of The Community we have caused. It's not competition between nbalive.org and NLSC, if a competition truly existed, the growth of both sites and The Community would have been exponential.

I don't want the termination of EG's moderation job. That's not my objective like scub thought. My objective is to address problems, and take actions to eliminate them. I would like Andrew to unblock me on MSN, but I guess he won't. I bothered Barnsey to invite him so I could ask about it, then I tried simple NBA Talk. I don't see how we can address the problems of our community if we don't even talk. But it's good he did, because now this discussion is public, so anyone can join.

But alas, "[there isn't] a problem." So, I guess, a lisless path it is.

Who's attacking you? I found your approach of comparing a video game fan website with leaders who caused pain to millions of people a bit silly, and an insult to the admin.

Is there an elitist class in the community? Sure there is, always has been. But I don't see any kind of status here which is unattainable with the exception of Webmaster. Bourbon and Robby are well respected members, where as Heidi is not. It's obvious why. As far as I can see that whole attitute of "screw you noob" which might be familiar to you, has for the most part been eliminated, with the exception of cases where a new member makes a really overbearing entrance. But again, this is a website, and "the people" are here one minute, gone the next. Yes they replace eachother. If they choose to stick around and contribute long enough their opinions are respected and taken on board. Those who appear out of the blue, their opinions are also taken on board if you look at the issues section, it's not like they are told to go away. But people come and go as they please, where as you, me and the rest of us decide to stick around. Should we beg everyone else to stay? What is so horrible about our ways? I have not seen a new member really treated like shit probably since the days you were a mod. I will give you credit for seeing the elitist thing as a universal trait among both websites and its members. But I do not see it as a problem here. I don't know the situation on your site.

Andrew was given the responsiblity by Tim, and I think he has been fairly accomodating towards members. This is the internet, "the people" have enough power to make their own decisions. They are not forced to be here and if they have a problem they speak up as you did.

But I'm obvisously dismissing the problem as you say. And the problem, is what? People generally not having a say in how they're treated? Well the rules are in place, do you have any suggestions for changes? The behaviour of the mods (who are by the way human) is always going to vary.

What else is the problem, the stagnation of the community? While I will agree that a lot of regular members of this, and your own website have been present for some time I don't see the NLSC (I can't comment on your website because I don't know) as stagnating. The traffic on the site, if you look at the live 2004 section is just fine and dandy. I don't know whether more or less people sign up then in the good old days, but yeah ok, not as many stick around quite possibly. I don't think this is because of the admin or members. It could be any number of things. Lack of interest in Nba live? Kids have the attention span of a moth? There's more pron on the net than ever?
This website is going strong. You say stagnation, I say stability.

Good luck with finding your remedy. Whatever is in the best interest of your website, you should do. Good luck in finding those people who will rectify the situation. Or will they simply fit into your system like your other community friends?

How many of these websites are left? (I honestly don't know, I only come here). The admin do what is best for this website, that is why it is still here. Something must be working.

I tend to disagree with you a lot, but I'm calling it as I see it. It's the internet and we obviously have different perspectives on what's problematic and what's not.

I'm done

Wow..im actually impressed ben. Glad to see you're not trying to pin whatever problems on the nlsc..and treating it as a global thing. However, elitist ideals were here when i joined this site..and this is how it has always been...i dont think its a problem. The NLSC seems just about as active now as it has ever been.

Also, i may not have the right to speak for Andrew..but mabe...just mabe if you didn't make snide dictatorship remarks he might consider unblocking you?

I'll re-iterate, while it may be a nice idea to let the community vote on who should be mod..and who should be deleted..its just not how things are done. I can't name one website community that does that...and i dont think we'll be the first to do it. Andrew is the guy that totally decides these things..i may be able to suggest things(i suggested EG be a mod)...but he has the final say. As im sure with your website...you being the "editor in cheif"..you make the final decisions. I doubt you get the whole community involved in every decision you make there.

I'm human..which is obvious...and im prone to mistakes as a mod. I might make partial comments and decisions...i admit all of this. None the less, i've been around this community long enough to know that being too strict, cocky etc...only brings you down in the eyes of the entire community. I myself have had my wars with mods who took their jobs too seriously in the past. I tried to warn EG about this but he snuffed my words as someone being conceited and acting big just cause i've been here longer than him. What's the result?..he had to be dealt with. Thats just how it is....i may be blind..but i just fail to see why this needs to be put vote or why the community has to get involved. The community can complain and suggest things in this "NLSC issues" area...but the final decision is made by the community leaders. I'll shut up now..cause im sounding like a broken record.

I'll re-iterate, while it may be a nice idea to let the community vote on who should be mod..and who should be deleted..its just not how things are done. I can't name one website community that does that...

I can... www.nbalive.org. I am surprised you make this comment as you visit the site and post there? Obviously you have never visited the nbalive.org Forum section or read the nbalive.org Forums Constitution post. But that is beside the point.. I don't know why Benji is bothering with all of this.. I tried a while ago but it fell on deaf ears... now I don't care... I guess Benji still cares ... good luck Ben...

Personally, i dont think making little sarcastic, insultive remarks and comments is a good way to suggest things. None of us here are dumb..we recognise these things...and people dont usually take anyone seriously who come at them with hostility.

Also, I post on live.org but only in the announcement forum where patches are announced..so excuse my igorance about the constitution and what not.

read the nbalive.org Forums Constitution post.

Constitution post?? Is it a country you people are running or a simple Internet Forum

well, Ben is rather patriotic that's why...

Wow..im actually impressed ben. Glad to see you're not trying to pin whatever problems on the nlsc..and treating it as a global thing. However, elitist ideals were here when i joined this site..and this is how it has always been...i dont think its a problem. The NLSC seems just about as active now as it has ever been.

That's the problem. No one sees a problem. The fact is we are held back by this and other issues. Look at the NHL, look at FIFA. They sell less than Live but are leagues ahead of us. Even Madden who should be ahead, is farther ahead. It's not that things aren't good, it's that they aren't as good as they could be. I see the elitist ideals as holding us back, because we are often thinking only we know what's best. I mean, look at what you said in this very thread again: "how people are dealt with here at the NLSC is the business of the community leaders...and them only"

Also, i may not have the right to speak for Andrew..but mabe...just mabe if you didn't make snide dictatorship remarks he might consider unblocking you?

Hey, hey, hey, not dictatorship. Communist State. And he blocked me before I started making these comparisons, that was only in the last month or so.

I'll re-iterate, while it may be a nice idea to let the community vote on who should be mod..and who should be deleted..its just not how things are done. I can't name one website community that does that

Last I checked, Apolyton did it. Elitehackers used to do it under the old webmaster.

As im sure with your website...you being the "editor in cheif"..you make the final decisions. I doubt you get the whole community involved in every decision you make there.

I try to get them involved in the majority of the decisions. The rest I put to the staff, which is a dozen or so people. Me and Kq often disagree, me and David, me and Tony, me and Dmit. The final decision legally rests with me, Dmit and Dr. Seth. I usually talk it over with all of them and if they have qualms with something I either accomidate or don't do it. We tried our representatives and it worked. Unfortunately they have had time constraints so we've been in recess on decisions. We will probably have to vote to remake the members of that group, especially with user expansion. I want to give everything over to the community, they aren't there yet, and most of them are here on NLSC so that can present a problem. Yes, I have final say but if it's overwhelmingly supported then I will approve it even if I don't like it. So far that hasn't happened too much. The way it is isn't how I want it to be though, I want it to change. Especially since I'm not a good decision maker because I doubt everything too much.

I'm human..which is obvious...and im prone to mistakes as a mod. I might make partial comments and decisions...i admit all of this.

I'm not saying that's wrong, what I wanted to know is what was being done regarding a few issues. I don't think moderators shouldn't be unbiased, they can be biased, I didn't even make that a provision in the Constitution of nbalive.org Forum. I stressed that favoritism exists and does not get punishment. I did that because I want the moderators to be subject to the users, so if they're doing things people don't like, they will lose their job because of the majority, not a minority.

None the less, i've been around this community long enough to know that being too strict, cocky etc...only brings you down in the eyes of the entire community.

I hope enforcement of the rules doesn't bring you down in our eyes. That's a problem if it does.

but i just fail to see why this needs to be put vote or why the community has to get involved.

Thug, read what you write. You say I'm implying a "dictatorship", but you are when you say stuff like that. I know what you mean, but the ay you say it is just...gah...it gets under my skin. I mean "the affairs of the state are of no concern to the proletariat" sounds very similar to that to me and probably others.

But that is beside the point.. I don't know why Benji is bothering with all of this.. I tried a while ago but it fell on deaf ears... now I don't care... I guess Benji still cares ... good luck Ben...

Well. I need something to care about anymore, and this is something that I can actually influence so it's worthwhile, IMO, to spend a little time on this Grand Experiment.

people dont usually take anyone seriously who come at them with hostility.

Tell that to Howard Dean.

Also, I post on live.org but only in the announcement forum where patches are announced..so excuse my igorance about the constitution and what not.

Excused.

Constitution post?? Is it a country you people are running or a simple Internet Forum

Most organizations have a Constitution of some form under some name. Unions have them. Countries have them, States have them, local governments have them, cities have them. The NLSC has one, but it's called simply "The Rules." The reason I changed the name from Rules to Constitution was because I had expanded it beyond just the rules and into some semblance of a governmental body for the Forum. A document that describes how things are run, that isn't just rules. I chose Constitution because it's a word all Americans and most people in the world recognize as the most important document that exists. Excluding religious texts of course.