Education: The Key to Success?

[Jackal]

Here's another Jackal-Talk thing for you folks.

What are your thoughts on the topic title? Do you feel that education is indeed the key to success? Can you be successful without having a paper in your possession?

I think that there should be just the right balance between experience and education. Students should have some time to do their internships. Not serious paid internships like at college level, but at my highschool we had like 2-3 weeks of internships at various companies. Based on what you are studying, you get a list of participating companies & you make your pick. You attend their work place for around 2-3 weeks full time. You learn the ropes in the first week orso and then you basically just work.

A lot of students would want compensation for their work, but I'm not totally for that. You are gaining experience and building social contacts with the mini-internship, it's only adding to your future.

On the flipside, I know a lot of individuals who have kicked it pretty damn far despite not having a very high degree.

This is due to various factors in my opinion.

Some people are just really fast learners, they can pick up things really quickly & are what I like to call "street smart". They might not have book-type intelligence but have intelligence based on experience from their own life and of people around them.

Some people just have the right contacts, contacts plays a big big big role in getting a good job. Say you've got a law degree, your neighbour also has a law degree. Both of you apply to the same lawfirm, by chance one of the firm's partners had an affair with my neighbours mom a long long time ago. Chances are he'll get the job over me due to the fact that the partner is familiar with that family opposed to mine.

I would like to add that in this day and age, it's quite difficult not to get somewhere without a solid foundation. Here's where I'm going to contradict myself in a way.

A person who is above 50 and has a degree from the University is less likely to find a job (in Holland) opposed to a 25 year old who's done like junior college or whatever it is called in the States. Why? You have to pay according to age & the capacity of what your employee has worked in Holland. For a lot of companies it comes out way cheaper to pay the 25 year old less money and teach him the job as time goes on, opposed to paying someone a larger amount of money but to be assured that that person knows everything there is to know.

So, let me have it, what are your thoughts? Do you share my opinion? Do you disagree to a certain extent? Let me hear it. Even if you agree, for the sake of the thread, don't just go I agree. Some of the good debaters can even go as far as saying you don't agree even if you do. All I'm asking is to give good points/arguments to your point of view. I'm all ears fellows. (Eyes in this case.)

[Matt]

6 of 10 richest people in Australia don't have a degree.

You don't need one, it's all about business smarts. Obviously if you go the "paper" way it'll be easier but you can achieve great success by being innovative and making smart decisions. If however you want a career, paper is the way to go.

[Andrew]

I don't think getting a degree is the key necessarily but if you'll excuse the cliche it is the ticket to opportunity. Even if you have the knowledge and skills to do a job employers place more trust in a piece of paper that suggests you can. Personally I don't think that piece of paper is necessarily an accurate representation of your skills and knowledge, one could blugde and/or cheat their way through university, scrape by on a pass and then claim to be an expert in their field simply because they have a uni degree. A person with "real world" experience could be just as capable, perhaps more so since they haven't learned their occupation out of a textbook.

Obviously that's a generalisation and certainly does not hold true for all occupations, professions in the medical field spring immediately to mind. But your chances for advancement or indeed employment may hinge on some form of further education: apprenticeships, traineeships, TAFE courses or training seminars to name a few alternatives.

It also depends on your definition of success. Your job may be blue collar work that while important might be seen as menial or "unskilled" (a term that should be used very loosely considering to do most jobs you need at least a couple of skills), but if it affords you a comfortable lifestyle and you're happy, would you consider yourself unsuccessful or a failure? A lot of people might see it that way but I don't think it's necessarily the case. Some people may be forced into such lines of work because they lack the drive and dedication to strive for anything more cerebral (and the higher pay it brings) but others may simply lack the aptitude for academics needed to become a doctors or a lawyer and so on. I don't think anyone be condemned for being a failure because they lack so-called "book smarts".

But since many employers favour employees with degrees, many jobs require further education through study at university, apprenticeships/traineeships and then perhaps skill building seminars and courses - not to mention the increased chances of moving up with further training once you have a job - education, in one form or another, tends to be the key to further success.

If you want to talk about life outside of the workplace education is quite obviously a key to being successful, since someone who doesn't learn from their mistakes is doomed to repeat them.

[The X]

it's a bit of both I'd say....education is a good grounding & framework for your career....the actual success will come down to desire, ambition, hardwork, intelligence, ability to learn, ability to be flexible/malleable, ability to get on with other people, ability to socialise & many other factors....

much like trying to pick success in an NBA prospect is often hit-and-miss, it's often the same for regular Joe's....

please note, that when I say education, I don't just mean books & degrees, I am also referring to apprenticeships, traineeships & so on....

[magius]

education isn't the key, but it doesn't hurt. That is unless you want to be an outsider artist...

[The X]

education isn't the key, but it doesn't hurt. That is unless you want to be an outsider artist...

whilst I don't really know a lot about art, but don't most artist need some sort of training/art school?!? I would consider that education....

maybe I misinterpreted your example....

as for education & jobs, a lot of jobs won't look at you if you don't have a certain qualification or level of education because the other people who are applying for jobs (your competitors) have that qualification or level of education....it's not that one or the other can't do it, it's just the big boobs, small boobs addage....if you had a choice between (almost) identical twins sisters but one had nipples for breasts & the other one had big boobs, I know which one most people would go for....the same for an employer....education these days is essentially trying to keep the playing field level....although as Jackal mentioned in his initial post, other factors like contacts & so on play a heavy role in this....

[J@3]

There's getting rich and there's having a career... to get rich you could be the dumbest moron alive but guess the numbers of a lottery, or stumble across some fantastic idea no one's ever thought of, the element of luck is enormous. To have a career you pretty much need an education, unless as Magius says you're going to be an artist or something (I also include singing, acting etc into that)... obviously you can both be rich AND have a career, but I guess it comes down to how you determine success.

[The X]

I think even actors & singers have to have a certain amount of desire & ambition to make it....whether they are going down on someone or whatnot, they'll do what it takes

[Pross]

I think it depends on the person and the career they want to get into. The majority of my friends didn't go to university or went and dropped out (just like me) and the fact is we are better off for it, well atleast at the moment. Some of my friends are earning more than their parents who went to uni and they have only been out of school for 2 years. How you say?? hard work and street smarts as Jackal said. It's all good and well having book smarts but if you finish your uni degree and can't deliver in the real world then you're gonna have some problems.

One of my best friends recieved an OP25 at high school. Which basically means worst possible final position. OP1 = best, OP25 = worst. Thing is striaght after school he quickly got straight into banking, worked is ass off and now he is a loan manager at one of the best banks in our state.

On the contrary, my sister went to uni and finished her degree in business and is now living in london earning a pretty penny.

Moral of the story. Work hard at what ever you do and you should succeed.

[Laxation]

I didnt read much of this... too much writing...

Whilst education isnt the key to success, it is extremely helpful to do better.

[Riot]

I plan on living a highly successful life with only an associates degree from a community college or the military. Education really does no dictate your salary or, more importantly, standard of job. Obviously, you need a great education to be some of the more sophisicated jobs like a doctor, teacher or any other kind of job like that. There are a lot of people I know that have good jobs without a 4 year degree in college. The bottom line is this: if you work hard and present yourself in a great manner you'll find a job for yourself. Be polite and be the best person you can be, if you do all of that you should be able to find a job that you enjoy.

With that said, you should probably go to college.

[Its_asdf]

You can be intelligent without a degree, but having one will showcase that you are. In this day and age, there isn't any other way besides having a nice fancy diploma to show that you will meet an employer's qualification, so having an education is essential, though not necessary.

[Ty-Land]

If your committed to achieving something you'll get there in the end. As long as you work hard enough and do what is necessary. For example you don't need any tertiary education to be an entrepeneur (sp??), yet if you wish to be a doctor or a lawyer you must do the necessary study to achieve those goals.

It is also important that education is not just something you gain from school or uni etc. It is something you get from work and experience. Many people who have never set foot in a university class are incredibly intelligent in fields of their interest becuase they pursue that interest and consequently educate themselves.

[Cloudy]

I think a degree just gives you a bigger advantage for opportunities, since they all look for people with higher degrees... Those without one mostly started on their own..

[Colin]

There's getting rich and there's having a career... to get rich you could be the dumbest moron alive but guess the numbers of a lottery, or stumble across some fantastic idea no one's ever thought of, the element of luck is enormous. To have a career you pretty much need an education, unless as Magius says you're going to be an artist or something (I also include singing, acting etc into that)... obviously you can both be rich AND have a career, but I guess it comes down to how you determine success.

That's pretty much what I think, and covers the previous comment of 6/10 of the richest people in Australia don't have a degree.

To restate it, to have a good career that gets you mid-upper middle class a degree is very helpful. Around here a college degree is becoming expected and somewhat like the new high school degree.

But of course you don't need a degree to get that career. But if you don't have a degree it would probably be best to start your own business rather than trying to get a job with someone else that would sustain you in your chosen career.

[magius]

education isn't the key, but it doesn't hurt. That is unless you want to be an outsider artist...

whilst I don't really know a lot about art, but don't most artist need some sort of training/art school?!? I would consider that education....

maybe I misinterpreted your example....

as for education & jobs, a lot of jobs won't look at you if you don't have a certain qualification or level of education because the other people who are applying for jobs (your competitors) have that qualification or level of education....it's not that one or the other can't do it, it's just the big boobs, small boobs addage....if you had a choice between (almost) identical twins sisters but one had nipples for breasts & the other one had big boobs, I know which one most people would go for....the same for an employer....education these days is essentially trying to keep the playing field level....although as Jackal mentioned in his initial post, other factors like contacts & so on play a heavy role in this....

outsider art is untrained art. Normal artists don't need the degree persay, but more the training and interaction. I would also argue to the fact that an acting or writing school will never teach you how to be a great actor or writer.... just how to act and write like others do; which will get you absolutely nowhere. That said, having a basis doesn't hurt if you're good - because if you're good, you're good. It is possible to be unique and trained and if you can pull it off you will be great - but it is hard.

an education is mandatory (of course) for lawyers and doctors. There are jobs that require degrees, and others not so much. So i guess what i'm saying is - it depends on what you want to be.

[dada]

I'm an artist myself and I must say it makes no difference if you have one since a guy with greater talent can just get up off the street and win that job over you. Well, I'm thinking in terms of being an illustrator but even with Fine Artists the degree means nothing since nobody is gonna buy your work cuz you have a fancy honors degree from some art school. The only time it matters maybe is if you go into administration or something like that. All it does is indicate you have been studying this stuff for a while. I eventually want to teach at the college level so right now I'm just going through the college motions, establishing contacts and such. Ill be doing this for a while though.

[-BHZMAFIA-]

There's getting rich and there's having a career... to get rich you could be the dumbest moron alive but guess the numbers of a lottery, or stumble across some fantastic idea no one's ever thought of, the element of luck is enormous. To have a career you pretty much need an education, unless as Magius says you're going to be an artist or something (I also include singing, acting etc into that)... obviously you can both be rich AND have a career, but I guess it comes down to how you determine success.

That's pretty much what I think, and covers the previous comment of 6/10 of the richest people in Australia don't have a degree.

To restate it, to have a good career that gets you mid-upper middle class a degree is very helpful. Around here a college degree is becoming expected and somewhat like the new high school degree.

But of course you don't need a degree to get that career. But if you don't have a degree it would probably be best to start your own business rather than trying to get a job with someone else that would sustain you in your chosen career.

Agreed, Paris Hilton is one of the dumbest bitches alive and look at how much money she has. I, myself would rather take the road to getting a degree mainly because of what I want to be when I get out of college. My brother is an artist and he really don't have to get a degree to try and open up his own art business or whatever, but he's still trying to finish college because I guess in his liking it would be easier to do so with a degree.

[J@3]

Agreed, Paris Hilton is one of the dumbest bitches alive and look at how much money she has.

That brings up a fairly interesting point... the reason she has so much money is because of her dad, the last name is a give away. I'm not sure what sort of education he had, but I'm assuming he had some sort of degree to open a chain of hotels. So she would be rich by parental default, but does that make her a success? I actually think she is to be honest, she has her own multi-million dollar income that is generated purely from her persona. She started off as a rich guy's daughter, but now she's her own cash generating product. It's clever in a way.

[killer_cr0ss0ver]

If you have "streetsmarts" you dont have to be educted to be rich. Thought it would be a great advantage to have a degree.


I HAVE A QUESTION!

In applying for those designing company, do you have to be a design engineer or something to be able to work there?

I mean for example you want to apply as a shoe designer for a shoe company, do i have to be graduate of Design engineer or something?! What if you have the skills for designing but dont have a degree on it?

[Jing]

yes.
totally agree i'd say.

[Abctest123]

yes.
totally agree i'd say.

i take it that you didnt bother reading every single post ? Anyways, not much i can say about this current topic as im still only in grade 10, but this quote from somewhere that I agree with: Going to school is not mandatory, but learning is. <-- That might spark a little more discussion?

[Cable]

but I guess it comes down to how you determine success.

That's it right there. Me and Mofo have to take a course called 'Careers', which basically covers everything we're talking about. If success for you is to have a family and be happy with your job, even if you don't make as much money as most people, then you may not need an education. There could be a guy with the highest education possible who lives in a house on his own and whose best friends are his car and his PC, but the other guy is more successful because he has a life.

[Its_asdf]

I also took careers this year. That was a garbage course that did not answer any of my questions. It was simply another course that shoved "be what you want to be!" down my throat.

[Cable]

Ha. My teacher changed the curriculum to something both fun and 'educational' for our school. I'm looking forward to taking it, it's a really useful course to me.