NLSC Greatest of All-Time: #15

[Mandich]

-17th number of the many

-#14 was won by Oscar Robertson

-#15 has a lot of deserving players and every one of them could take the title

-You can vote for players in any way you want: On-court impact, Off-court impact, championships etc.

Nominees:

1. Ron Artest (1999-00 to 2002-03)(2010-11 to 2012-13)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
15.0	5.2	3.2	.502	98	101	15.0	.080
11.5	4.6	2.3	.497	104	105	11.7	.083

* So this wasn't his prime and he shouldn't get serious consideration for the top spot, but a lot of people like Ron Artest.

This was the period before his Defensive Player of the Year award and his best years at Indiana and Sacramento. Artest was stil a good defender, but the other players on the list are just so much better.

2. Tom Heinsohn (1956-57 to 1964-65)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
22.8	10.7	2.5	.460	Nr	Nr	17.8	.150

* Heinsohn was a part of that legendary Celtics run with Bill Russell. He was a combo forward and he scored a lot. He really did. Just look at his career averages, over 20 points and 10 rebounds a game.

Sadly, he wasn't that efficient, even for that time, so his PER isn't as good as it is for the other greats of that era.

He still had great seasons and deserves a serious consideration.

3. Hal Greer (1958-59 to 1972-73)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
19.5	5.1	4.1	.506	Nr	Nr	15.7	.124

* Yet another player that played during those Celtics runs. But he played alongside Wilt Chamberlain and won an NBA Title in 1967.

Greer is the 76ers All-time leading scorer, which could surprise a lot of people.

Hal Greer was one of the better combo guards of his era. He wasn't on the same level as a Oscar Robertson, but was still amongst the best for most of his career.

He had a fairly long career, and didn't have troubles with injuries throughout it.

4. Earl Monroe (1972-73 to 1979-80)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
19.8	3.3	4.3	.526	107	103	16.8	.122

* So there was a time when the Knicks actually won something, and Monroe was a part of it.

The Rolls Royce backcourt. two flashy guards, and nobody thought they could play together.

Monroe was plagued by knee injuries throughout his career, ultimately ending his career.

When you take a closer look at his numbers, Monroe wasn't that great of a player. Obviously playing for the Knicks hypes him that much.

Was still a good player and will likely get some homer votes on the forum.

5. DeMarcus Cosuins (2010-11 to 2014-15)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
21.9	12.4	3.1	.523	102	104	21.4	.104

* The potential this guy has is scary.

There is a legit chance that he is the most skilled big in the league. Just look at his overall impact on his stats. He does everything.

The thing is, he was a very good defender this year, but will need to play a couple of more good seasons to be considered so. He ranked 4th in real plus-minus this year. He wasn't in the top 50 the last one.

Consistency is everything for Cousins. He already is a great rebounder, but putting the effort on defense and working to get a better shot is the next step. He already gets to the line 10 times per 36.

If he could play in a system that could utilize him better and make him more effective, he'll be the best center in the NBA.

6. Carmelo Anthony (2003-04 to 2009-10)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
24.4	6.1	3.1	.544	107	107	20.1	.125

* This Carmelo was far more aggressive at attacking the rim than New York Carmelo, resulting in more free-throw attempts.

Other than that, it is pretty much the same player. Capable volume scorer, solid rebounder, and nothing more than that.

Carmelo was always one of my favourite players but that doesn't make him a better player than he really is.

7. Vince Carter (1998-99 to 2009-10)

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	Ws/48
22.2	5.2	4.0	.537	109	106	21.1	.150

* Vince Carter was so much more than a dunker.

For that deriod of glory in Toronto, he was perhaps the best perimeter player in the league. It between him and Kobe, really.

1999-2000, 2000-2001. Just look at him in those years. Maybe even the year after until he got injured. Vince Carter had serious talent.

And yet he was accused of not trying hard enough. It's obvious that he didn't.

Just look at his stats in the season where he got traded to New Jersey. 2 different players.

What could've been...

Other Notable Player Shoutout

Nobody knows what happened to Andres Biedrins. The guy had outstandign years in the league, but then slowly started to deteroriate. A shame. Matt Bonner has been a steady role player for his career, spreading the floor and winning a couple of titles in the process. Mario Chalmers was always the puncing bag for the big 3 of Miami. Wayne Embry was a solid double-double guy for his career in the early stages of the NBA. Derricks Favors has yet to make the next step and become an All-star level forward in the NBA. He seems capable of doing it. Tom Gola had very good all-around stats in the 50s, but when looked upon a little bit closer, he doesn't impress as much. Still, getting that many rebounds as a swingman is a great feat. John Salmons scored a lot but wasn't effective and didn't do much other than that. Jim Price had some solid years in the NBA but changed teams frequently. Jimmy Jones was a really good combo guard, but played in the forgotten era of the 70s. Vinnie Johnson was a capable player of the bench for those championship Detroit teams. Reggie Jackson wore it in OKC but decided to change his number after getting traded. Al Horford has had an injury riddled career but is a very good player when healthy. Hopefully he can stay healthy and play out his prime. Matt Harpring had a few decent years, nothing to gloat about. Hedo Turkoglu had some good years wearing the number but it's still funy how he got that fat contract. Kemba Walker is yet to make a true impact in the league, but he certainly has the talent to do so. Latrell Sprewell wore it in Golden State where he logged major minutes and attempted a lot of shots. Still managed to have a good season there.

[Murat]

Voted for Monroe.

A healty Carter is unable to be imagined.

[Kevin]

Carter over Heinsohn

[mp3]

Earl the pearl gets my vote on this one.

Gotta rep the knicks winning something!

[Jackal]

For that deriod of glory in Toronto, he was perhaps the best perimeter player in the league. It between him and Kobe, really.

Orlando/part Houston Tracy McGrady would like to have a word with you.

Thanks for doing these threads, it's a fun read for in between free agency rumors and fapping to Shadowgrins memories.

[Mandich]

Obviously McGrady became the best perimeter player at one time, but you should really focus on the particular years I mentioned in my Vince argument.

1999-2000, 2000-2001. Just look at him in those years. Maybe even the year after until he got injured. Vince Carter had serious talent.

[Andrew]

I'll go with Carter over Melo for this one. I think Monroe still deserves a mention; like Isiah Thomas, he's an interesting case. When we examine the numbers, he may not quite be as good as is commonly believed, but like Isiah, it's obvious that he had a lot of talent. It just wasn't utilised a way in that produced very efficient or particularly gaudy numbers, compared to other stars.

[mp3]

I nearly voted for Carter thinking back to his "Air Canada" days when he gave it 110%

[Moz]

It would've been awesome if VC got traded to the Nets on those years they're contenders in the East... Imagine him, Kenyon Martin and Richard Jefferson as Kidd's lob partners...

[NovU]

Vince Carter

[Mandich]

I think Monroe still deserves a mention; like Isiah Thomas, he's an interesting case. When we examine the numbers, he may not quite be as good as is commonly believed, but like Isiah, it's obvious that he had a lot of talent

Nobody is questioning the talent of a Earl Monroe, Isiah Thomas, Allen Iverson etc. All of those guys were amongst the most talented players to play at their position during their playing time. Probably one of the most talented guards in history.

Great talent doesn't equal a great player.

It's about utilizing that talent and being effective on the basketball court. They most certainly were effective, but stats(not me or anyone else being subjective) show that they simply can't be considered elite all-time greats, when there are so many players that are better.

Some guys bring unnecessary teams stats, a la the team si going to get worse when the best player is injured, which is obvious just by itself and doesn't bring that much value when comparing players.

It's comparing player stats, along with the context of their teams and their success that give you the best possible picture of a players worth.

There are some players which values are virtually the same, so then championships and personal preferences jump in.

There's nothing wrong with loving Antoine Walker, but you have to stay realistic and admit that Garnett is better.

EDIT: most people already know what I've written, so there is no point in actually reading the post. Makes me feel stupid

[stereoxide]

Earl The Pearl. There's a reason why NY Melo can't wear no. 15 there.

[Spree#8]

the team si going to get worse when the best player is injured, which is obvious just by itself

"Perhaps the greatest scorer of the three-point era" begs to differ...

[Mandich]

That's because he was nothing more than a scorer and was horrible on defense. And the team played a slow pace. Just horrible coaching by Nissalke. And when Layden upped the pace and turned Utah into one of the fastest paced teams in the league, Dantley improved his offensive performance, which is impressive.

He was the entire offense on a team which had no defense and no players worth mentioning until Mark Eaton started playing good in Dantley's last two seasons. Even after he left and after Malone, Stockton and and actual team was assembled there, it took them until 1992-93 to be a better offensive team than Dantley's Jazz.

And they won with their defense, the dominating offense came in later with the addition of some other players like Hornacek. Just look at the difference in talent between those teams. Dantley didn't have the luxury of having an elite defensive team behind him

There's a lot of factors you need to look at during his time at Utah. Dantley was simply terrible at playing defense, and you remember one important thing: He was just a scorer. nothing more than that.

[Andrew]

Great talent doesn't equal a great player.

I don't know that that's the best way of putting it, but I do get where you're coming from there.

[Spree#8]

Being just a scorer doesn't stop you from having a good impact on your team. Two examples of guys who did nothing but score off the top of my head: Rick Barry, George Gervin. Good luck finding examples of their teams improving without them with no real replacements to speak of. Dantley is likely the only one of "greatest scorers" who causes such things to occur.

What really matters is how much a player helps his team win, not how pretty his box score looks. Dribbling the entire shot clock out in low post isos clearly wasn't all that helpful.

[Mandich]

Gervin played with Johny Moore, James Silas, Larry Kenon and Billy Paultz. Barry played with Nate Thurmond, Jim Easkins, Warren Jabali, Billy Paultz. Not to take anything away from them, but they were a part of some respectable teams.

Getting into a discussion with you just made me remember why I stopped replying to your posts. Not a mistake I'm going to repeat.