Allen Iverson officially retiring

[Andrew]

According to SLAM Magazine, via Ball Don't Lie:

Allen Iverson is going to announce his retirement from the NBA soon. First reported, appropriately, by SLAM Magazine, the 2001 NBA MVP and 11-time All-Star will call it quits after a star-crossed NBA career and short stint playing in Turkey. Iverson has not played an NBA game since Feb. 2010, and it’s fair to say that his time away from the game has brought more bad news than good.

Iverson leaves the NBA after being shunned by NBA squads to start the 2010-11, 2011-12, 2012-13, and presumably 2013-14 seasons. Though Allen wasn’t exactly a greybeard when he walked away from the Philadelphia 76ers in 2010 at the age of 34, it was probably that walk away that prematurely ended his NBA career.

NBA general managers were more than aware that Iverson also walked away from Philadelphia in December of 2006 (before being dealt to Denver), from the Detroit Pistons in the spring of 2009, from the Memphis Grizzlies later that year, and finally from the Sixers later that season. All were not amicable partings, with the teams in question thinking it best if Iverson stayed away from the arena than stick with the team.

[Alpha_]

Aw, he's one of my childhood idols in basketball. It's really sad that he will end up his career with no championship title. I gonna miss his killer crossovers. A Hall for Famer for sure.

[shadowgrin]

[Sauru]

oh i love that play. it was the play that got kids everywhere to claim iverson was better than jordan proving they knew shit about the game

[shadowgrin]

[Spree#8]

It doesn't really matter too much, cause he's been gone for a while.

All in all, a fantastic player, warrior, competitor and the reason I started watching the NBA or even took an interest in basketball in general. It is a shame that he couldn't win a championship, but that's what happens when you spend your prime in a horribly managed organization. I feel like something's been missing from the NBA since his departure. Players don't seem as electrifying and charismatic to me these days. Iverson was always himself, for better or for worse and we probably won't ever see anybody quite like him. Definitely made a nice change from all the image-conscious bullshit.

In hindsight, what ultimately destroyed his career was the shitstorm that were the '09 Pistons and the media making him the scapegoat for everything that went on there. And for all the mistakes he made, for all the flaws he had as both a player and a person, he deserved better. His career should not have ended the way it did.

[Sauru]

oh you son of a bitch shadow

[RedPhazon8]

Great player to watch who played similar to Derrick Rose's style, too bad he didn't have the best career.

[Andrew]

It doesn't really matter too much, cause he's been gone for a while.

All in all, a fantastic player, warrior, competitor and the reason I started watching the NBA or even took an interest in basketball in general. It is a shame that he couldn't win a championship, but that's what happens when you spend your prime in a horribly managed organization. I feel like something's been missing from the NBA since his departure. Players don't seem as electrifying and charismatic to me these days. Iverson was always himself, for better or for worse and we probably won't ever see anybody quite like him. Definitely made a nice change from all the image-conscious bullshit.

In hindsight, what ultimately destroyed his career was the shitstorm that were the '09 Pistons and the media making him the scapegoat for everything that went on there. And for all the mistakes he made, for all the flaws he had as both a player and a person, he deserved better. His career should not have ended the way it did.

Doesn't he also have to share in the responsibility for that, though? As you said, he was himself for better or worse and sometimes, it definitely was for the worse. It's a shame the way his career ended and he should've gone out on a better note, but he played a part in that by burning some bridges.

In any event, he was a great player and should end up in the Hall of Fame. I won't say that he's underrated as he received a lot of recognition throughout his career, but he might be slightly underappreciated due to his field goal percentage, efficiency and some of the more controversial moments. He was still supremely talented and enjoyed a respectable amount of success in the league.

[Patr1ck]

He will be missed as one of the more notable NBA personalities.

As for his career, I think teams' realized he was past his prime as a franchise player before he did, and he had a hard time adjusting his game. That would have required practice, though.

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[Andrew]

There you go. All The Glove's fault.

[NovU]

He definitely could have had a better ending to his awesome career if he kept his ego in check. I think it's possible things with Pistons and Grizzlies could have turned out much better going forward in career transition if he accepted the fact that he aged and took on a lessor role through adjustment. I definitely would have loved to see him with a serious contender but it's unfortunate the teams were too scared to give him a chance.

[Andrew]

He seemed to be making that adjustment in his final run with Philadelphia, but not being able to finish out the season had to hurt his chances moving forward. By that point there were just too many strikes against him, too many questions about his dependability, what he was still capable of and what kind of role he'd accept.

[Spree#8]

Doesn't he also have to share in the responsibility for that, though? As you said, he was himself for better or worse and sometimes, it definitely was for the worse. It's a shame the way his career ended and he should've gone out on a better note, but he played a part in that by burning some bridges.

Of course he does, I never said he was a saint. What I mean is he doesn't deserve all of the blame, referring mostly to his stint in Detroit.

He definitely could have had a better ending to his awesome career if he kept his ego in check. I think it's possible things with Pistons and Grizzlies could have turned out much better going forward in career transition if he accepted the fact that he aged and took on a lessor role through adjustment.

We talked about this about a year ago. I don't believe it was unreasonable of Iverson to not take kindly to the idea of being a 15 mpg backup for Will Bynum and Rodney Stuckey, less than a year after leading a Nuggets team that played no defense to 50 wins in a historically packed West. It was the same in Memphis with Mike Conley. His problem was being shoved way behind clearly inferior players in the rotation. Bynum and Stuckey, I probably don't even need to comment on. Conley didn't start being an impactful player until 10-11. We still don't know - and will never find out - how he would have reacted to a true sixth man role, coming off the bench but playing big minutes and being an important figure on the team. Back then he was still better than 15 minutes off the bench and that's why he was pissed. The Pistons' play didn't benefit at all from that revolutionary idea and with the Grizzlies there's no way to tell because he was there too short.

Imagine LeBron gets traded to Philadelphia shortly after the start of the new season and they ask him to become Evan Turner's backup for 15 minutes off the bench. Would LeBron opposing to that be "not keeping his ego in check" (no, Iverson '08 wasn't as good as James '13, this is just meant to be an example)?

[NovU]

Well I guess we are revisting the topic then...

His problem was being shoved way behind clearly inferior players in the rotation. Bynum and Stuckey, I probably don't even need to comment on. Conley didn't start being an impactful player until 10-11. We still don't know

What we know though for sure is he played just as bad or even worse than those inferior players.

The bottomline is that AI could not fit in. If teams really sabotaged his game, I am one of those people who thinks they had pretty good reasons to. The teams clearly struggled to work him into their system and to their strength, which lead to ultimate discontent(thus off bench, less role, etc). It is only valid to criticize his flaws whether it be ego, attitude, age, selfishness, or whatever. No teams suffered a setback for losing him.

Do you not agree he could have had a better end to his career if he made a better adjustment(in attitude/game w/e that may apply)?

[Patr1ck]

I think playing less minutes hurt him more than playing off the bench. I also think those teams had no plan to include him in their future. His best case scenario would have been a team that put him in that sixth man role to be the main scorer off the bench.

[Andrew]

Imagine LeBron gets traded to Philadelphia shortly after the start of the new season and they ask him to become Evan Turner's backup for 15 minutes off the bench. Would LeBron opposing to that be "not keeping his ego in check" (no, Iverson '08 wasn't as good as James '13, this is just meant to be an example)?

That's kind of an extreme example since as you noted, LeBron James in 2013 isn't the same player as Allen Iverson in 2008 or 2009, so that's not likely to happen. Kevin Garnett being asked to back up Andray Blatche in Brooklyn isn't too likely either, but it might be a better comparison here.

It's not completely unreasonable for a player like Iverson to believe he should still be starting or playing more minutes when he's still capable of doing so. It's a lot to ask a former All-Star to give up so much when they've still got something left in the tank and it's been said that coaching fading stars can be a very challenging, even unpleasant task for that reason. A player like AI is entitled to dignity and respect of course, though they've still got to handle the situation with professionalism and maturity. If they sulk or are belligerent or refuse to play or whatever, not only does it ruin the working relationship they have with their current team, it scares off other teams as well. Given the challenges of coaching and dealing with fading stars, if such a player is being openly difficult, teams are going to take a pass on him.

Iverson may have had a point, but I'd suggest he went about it the wrong way, burning bridges and scaring off teams who might've given him a shot otherwise.

[Spree#8]

Iverson may have had a point, but I'd suggest he went about it the wrong way, burning bridges and scaring off teams who might've given him a shot otherwise.

He did go about it the wrong way. Leaving the team after getting benched did him no favors, he probably should have grinded it out and played out the season, especially since there were like 7 games left (and a 1st round sweep from the Cavs). I can't blame him for openly saying he's unhappy with playing 15 minutes a game though.

What we know though for sure is he played just as bad or even worse than those inferior players.

The bottomline is that AI could not fit in. If teams really sabotaged his game, I am one of those people who thinks they had pretty good reasons to. The teams clearly struggled to work him into their system and to their strength, which lead to ultimate discontent(thus off bench, less role, etc). It is only valid to criticize his flaws whether it be ego, attitude, age, selfishness, or whatever. No teams suffered a setback for losing him.

If you make somebody a role player on offense, you can't expect him to keep posting superstar numbers. Besides, you still haven't told me why the Pistons were still terrible after AI left ("got injured") and also when he was injured for real, before that. If he was the source of all their problems and was so detrimental to the team, they should have been rolling without him - the potential was definitely there, on paper at least. I really don't feel like saying all I said in our previous discussion all over again, so the summary is: the Pistons didn't trade for Iverson to help them win, but for his expiring contract. He attempted to fit in by playing off the ball more and taking slightly less shots. He wasn't efficient, neither was anybody else on the team. Nobody even attempted to figure it all out. Blaming AI entirely for all failures of that team is unfair and ignorant. They didn't improve after their "cancer" walked out on them.

Memphis is hard to talk about because of the miniscule sample size. The one game when Iverson was given 27.5 minutes he got a nice 18/7 line on 8-12 FG. His reward was a decrease in minutes the next game and after that he quit. Conley definitely wasn't better than AI in those 3 games. Arguments based on so little data can't be strong, but it's all we have. I don't approve of him walking out on the team, but a consistent ~30 minutes with a shot at competing for a starting job probably wasn't too much to ask for on Iverson's part.

His cameo back in Philly isn't much either, but he did post a career-low USG%, took less shots and handled the ball less. His numbers were pretty much what you would expect of somebody being merely a part of a system, a really bad one at that. With Eddie Jordan on the bench and his stupid Princeton ways, nobody could have made that team good. But for what it's worth, '09-'10 Sixers with Iverson went 10-15 (pace for 33 wins) and 17-40 (pace for 24 wins) without him. Pretty positive impact for a washed-up ballhog. Why is that? Maybe because they let him have an impact instead of burying his ass on the bench.

Do you not agree he could have had a better end to his career if he made a better adjustment(in attitude/game w/e that may apply)?

He did adjust his game. The attitude was definitely a problem and walking out on teams is likely what did him in. But like I said, I think his bitching about playing time was perfectly justified and believe he could have been talked into being a sixth man if he was getting proper playing time and allowed to have an impact. It probably would have helped if the player he was supposed to be backing up was actually better than him, too. Forcing him to be an 8th/9th man didn't work for him or the team.

[NovU]

He was the source of the problem. He was the superstar that was supposed to make a difference positively. He couldn't, mostly because he didn't have young legs anymore and couldn't find ways to contribute differently from how he's used to playing.

Detroit was fucked with/without AI because loss of Billups was too much. Memphis's Conley wasn't better at the time but he didn't require much ball in his hand unlike AI. The team had developing Gay, Randolph, and Mayo as well, enough shot jackers already. AI was a burden because he was too old and wasn't significantly better than any of them. In his last year with 76ers, he was a non factor player whatsoever, way under average player in nearly all categories. I don't even understand how that's included in your argument.

[Andrew]

He did go about it the wrong way. Leaving the team after getting benched did him no favors, he probably should have grinded it out and played out the season, especially since there were like 7 games left (and a 1st round sweep from the Cavs). I can't blame him for openly saying he's unhappy with playing 15 minutes a game though.

If it's his last run with the Sixers you're talking about, he started all but one of his 25 games and was playing around 32 minutes per game. There was also a couple of months left when he took his leave of absence. That had to be the final straw, leading other teams to believe that he was done or at the very least, they couldn't rely on him. At least he got something of a farewell tour with the team that took him first overall in 1996, though.

[Sauru]

if the coach thinks he should play 15 minutes a game he should shut the fuck up and play 15 minutes. damn players always wanting it to be able them.

[Spree#8]

He was the source of the problem. He was the superstar that was supposed to make a difference positively. He couldn't, mostly because he didn't have young legs anymore and couldn't find ways to contribute differently from how he's used to playing.

Detroit was fucked with/without AI because loss of Billups was too much.

The only thing he was supposed to do was expire. If he was supposed to be a superstar, how come his role on offense was smaller? That's what I said in the previous post: how are you going to have a superstar impact if you're just a part of a system? If they wanted him to be a superstar, they'd have let him do his thing. The role Iverson excelled at for so many years but never got in Detroit was happily handed to Rip Hamilton when AI was gone, even though Rip wasn't half the ball handler and off-dribble creator AI was.

Another interesting thing is how in '07-'08 Iverson had arguably his most efficient individual season and was a top10 NBA player according to Win Shares, but a few months later in Detroit he's old, washed up and no good. Far too rapid a decline for me to believe that was really the case.

Once again, expecting Iverson to step right into Billups' shoes was unreasonable at best. Iverson was a scorer, that's what he'd always been.

Memphis's Conley wasn't better at the time but he didn't require much ball in his hand unlike AI. The team had developing Gay, Randolph, and Mayo as well, enough shot jackers already. AI was a burden because he was too old and wasn't significantly better than any of them.

Looks like the Grizzlies' faith in their young superstars was limited if they decided to bring in some extra firepower in Iverson. Also, everybody and their mother knew AI is at his best when he has the ball. If you're looking for a spot-up shooter, he's not your guy. Memphis clearly wasn't when they signed him.

In his last year with 76ers, he was a non factor player whatsoever, way under average player in nearly all categories. I don't even understand how that's included in your argument.

Already explained why. He had a positive impact on the team's results, even if his own stats weren't exactly eye-popping. He was fitting in, becoming a role player on offense, doing what everybody was telling him to do. That wasn't the game he was used to playing, so the numbers weren't great either. But the team played better with him on board - he must have been doing something right then.

If it's his last run with the Sixers you're talking about, he started all but one of his 25 games and was playing around 32 minutes per game. There was also a couple of months left when he took his leave of absence. That had to be the final straw, leading other teams to believe that he was done or at the very least, they couldn't rely on him.

No, I was still talking about Detroit. Just checked it again: Iverson got injured in late February, sat out a month and change. When he came back, he got benched and after seeing his playing time steadily decrease for 3 games, he left the team. The Pistons had 7 regular season games left to play out at the time and the Cavs' sweep of them in the first round.

[Andrew]

Ah, fair enough then.

[SoF'nAwesome]

Those gifs got me giggling.

It's "official" now. Great player, certainly he will have his tales. I wish his career ended in a better way. But another example that rings don't always work as a judgement for players. How many guys have rings & how many of them are better than Iverson?

The last post by Sauru is epic