Greatest Of The Three Point Era: Point Guard

So there was a tie between this and SF, so I ran a 1000 coin-flip simulation and PG won out. We'll do SF next. Then I'll do another for PF/SG which also tied, which leaves centers last.

Let's refresh:
We're considering only 1977-78 forward. The best seven year stint of that player, in other words the "prime" of their career.

Some ideas of how to do it:
List 1-10 with comments why for each player.
Or:
List 1-5 with comments for each player, and five honorable mentions with a brief comment on those as whole.
And/Or:
Rank the five best offensive players and five best defensive players. Or just with your top ten/five list the top offensive player and top defensive player.

Really no set format, there are plenty of ways of doing it.

Since it will be asked, Allen Iverson is a SG for this exercise. Any others I will enforce as I see fit later in the thread.

Also, good luck at being able to instantly figure out what seven years are clearly John Stockton or Magic Johnson's primes.

Last edited by benji on Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

just to throw it out there i think Magic's accomplishments have been cut short due to the fact that he retired early (Mr. "one time i had 6 at one time"). he could've easily played into the early 90s. he couldve won a couple more championships. even at 40 he couldve played the role jason kidd has in dallas today. there's no way in hell Jason Kidd or Mark Jackson wouldve ever passed him. only Stockton wouldve rivaled his assist numbers

yeah yeah i know he shouldn't be given any slack because he didn't play 20 years like some of these other guys and you could make the same argument for someone like penny whose career was derailed by injuries

How/where do I find a way to look at numbers accumulated through specific season... like if I want to see Magic's total stats from his 6th season to his 12th combined without anything else showing.

X's Top 10

1. Magic Johnson ('82-'88): Started with the year he flirted with averaging a triple double for the season and ending with his final title with the Lakers. Not much needs to be said about Magic, I'm sure others will cover him in depth.

2. John Stockton ('91-'97): It was really hard to pick which 7 year period since he was probably actually better statistically from '87 to '94 than the era I chose. I just wanted to link it in with team performances and his clutch moments in the playoffs to get to Finals in 1997, when he once again showed that he was always the heart and soul of the Utah Jazz. Stockton with his pinpoint precision passing, his dirty screens and tenacious play put him right near the top of the pack.

3. Isiah Thomas ('84-'90): I wanted to start his a year earlier but playoff performances in 1990 kept me back that one year. Something about Isiah always irked me even though I know he could play.

4. Gary Payton ('95-'01): Payton was a dominant guard at both ends, especially the defensive. It was just a shame that Shawn Kemp capitulated at the wrong time and wasted The Glove's prime.

5. Steve Nash ('02-'08): I know everybody will have Jason Kidd higher than Nash and I did too, but I just like Nash and his surname rhymes with my daughter's name, so that's as good a reason as any to bump him over Kidd.

6. Jason Kidd ('98-'04): It's a shame Kidd had the falling out in Dallas and trade, otherwise I would've said '96-'02. Kidd was a wonder to watch in his prime as he made everybody else better.

7. Chris Paul ('06-'12) I've taken the liberty of including Chris Paul's next season. Paul would be higher if he'd been a bit healthier during this period.

8. Mark Price ('88-'94): Almost forgot my main man, Mark Price. Overshadowed by John Stockton, but he was Stockton of the East less the defense and dirtiness.

9. Kevin Johnson ('89-'95): If he had stayed a bit healthier, he probably would've been bumped a little higher.

10. Maurice Cheeks ('82-'88): This last one was a toss up with Chauncey Billups but eventually settled for Mo Cheeks due to hearsay that he was good and a good defender.

If I forgot somebody just slide them in & knock out Cheeks. Please note that I haven't bothered posting stats, it took long enough to do a top 10. People can just check Basketball Reference if they want to look at stats for those eras.

1. Magic Johnson

I'm going to take 1982-1988 as the best seven years of his career. During that span he averaged around 19 ppg, 7 rpg and 12 apg, came close to averaging a triple double in the 1982 season and took the reigns from Kareem as the most important player on a Lakers team that won four titles in six NBA Finals appearances. He did everything a point guard is "supposed" to do, running the club and finding his teammates with his uncanny court vision and passing abilities, but he could also shoulder a hefty part of the scoring load and snagged his fair share of rebounds. He could pretty much do it all and had a good grasp of when to do it; when to facilitate and when to take it upon himself to score. I'd still rank him as one of the top five players all-time, probably even top three and I'd take him as the best point guard of the all-time so I'd certainly give him the nod for the three point era.

2. John Stockton

A model of longevity, unselfishness and the prototypical "traditional" point guard, if indeed we can say there is such a thing. It definitely is tough to pick his best seven years in the league as the span with the gaudiest stats doesn't include Utah's two trips the Finals and per 36, his numbers were still about on par with earlier seasons. I will go with 1990-1996 though which included his highest scoring years, some truly exceptional assist numbers and some of his best years shooting the basketball, with fantastic percentages for a 6'1" point guard. However, I believe him to be a little too unselfish at times particularly in the postseason. He wasn't one to take over a game as Magic would, which may have cost Utah some postseason success on at least a few occasions.

3. Isiah Thomas

Best seven years: I'm going to say 1984-1990, which included three Finals trips, two championships and four straight years averaging over 20 points and 10 assists per game. Fearless on the court despite his size, missed just 11 games during those seven years and seemed to have the ball on a string, though his assist numbers aren't quite as good as Magic and Stockton but like Magic, he'd take on a more assertive role as a scorer when need be. I think there's a tendency to overlook him these days because of all that's happened with his assorted ventures following his playing career.

4. Gary Payton

One of the greatest defensive players at his position, he was also a more than capable scorer and certainly racked up the assists too. I'll take 1995-2001 as the best seven year span of his career, or perhaps you could throw out the lockout season and count up to 2002 (though he did have a good 1999 season). He tended to pass the ball less in the Playoffs though and despite often playing over 40 minutes per game, his scoring average wasn't really going through the roof along with the fewer assists.

5. Jason Kidd

I'm picking 2001-2007 as his best seven years in the league. Two NBA Finals appearances in which he played a big part in turning around the fortunes of the Nets (being healthy is a factor that is often overlooked, but Kidd's more team-oriented approach was an improvement on Stephon Marbury), a season in which he flirted with averaging a triple double (and then did in the Playoffs that year), five assist crowns, his best scoring years and his emergence as a better shooter than he had been earlier in his career. The shot isn't always there in the Playoffs though.

6. Steve Nash

Kind of tough to pick out seven years because he continues to be incredibly consistent into his late 30s, but I'll say 2002-2008 as it includes his two MVP seasons, some incredible shooting percentages including two 50-40-90 seasons (we might as well say three as there's a third where he shot 89.9% from the free throw line) and a few where he came pretty close. Although he's cut from the same cloth as John Stockton, I think he's better at taking a game over being a more willing scorer when called upon to do so, but he's nowhere near the type of defender that Stock was. For that reason, I can't put him any higher than six though as a playmaker and scorer I believe he can hold his own with pretty much everyone in the top ten.

7. Chauncey Billups

He doesn't have the most eye-catching stats on the list, particularly when it comes to assists, but his assist percentage is respectable and he was the clear leader and floor general on a Pistons team that made numerous Conference Finals appearances, two NBA Finals appearances and won the 2004 championship. That said, his numbers aren't too shabby and he's proven himself worthy of the Mr Big Shot moniker on quite a few occasions. Best years were 2003-2009.

8. Kevin Johnson

From 1989-1995, KJ had three straight years averaging at least 20 points and 10 assists per game and two more where he was a shade under in one of those categories (19.7 ppg and 10.7 apg in 1992, 20 ppg and 9.5 apg in 1994). As X mentioned, staying healthy was a problem as his career progressed but when he was on the floor he was one of the top point guards in the game, another guy who played a lot bigger than his listed height of 6'1".

9. Mark Price

One of the best shooters on the list, but he also dished out his fair share of assists. I'd take 1989-1995 as his best years, as he posted some pretty good numbers despite only playing less than 36 minutes in four of those seven seasons; per 36, he's around the 20 point, nine assist mark. Ultimately he didn't have the longevity of other players in the top ten or the success, but during that span he was really good at the point, juggling the responsibility of running the team and shouldering part of the scoring load.

10. Tim Hardaway

The master of the killer crossover and number thirteen on the all-time career assists list. Best years were 1991-1998 (he missed the entire 1994 season), averaging over eight assists per game in each and over 20 points per game in five of them. Part of Run-TMC and a veteran leader on a couple of tough Miami Heat teams towards the end of that span.

Honourable Mentions

I was tempted to put Chris Paul in the top ten but he hasn't even played seven years in the league yet and while a few of his seasons have been outstanding, I ultimately felt it was too small a sample size at this time. In terms of talent, I'd put him in the top ten though. I'd rate Deron Williams up there too. Other honourable mentions would have to include Tony Parker, Terry Porter, Maurice Cheeks, Mark Jackson and Rod Strickland.

Finally, it's far too early to include players like Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook, but I do feel that as the years go by they'll certainly enter the discussion.

Your top 5 is identical to mine Andrew Yes, I know I have Nash at 5, but I did have Kidd at 5 originally

Damn it, forgot Tim Hardaway. I actually had Chauncey Billups as my original number 10 but thought I needed more representation from the 80's so gave Cheeks his spot.

Benji, could you please let us know if player needs minimum of 7 years service. If so, I will amend mine & maybe add Tim Bug &/or Chauncey.

I would suggest yes, but six years for players who are still active seems well "enough" to use if you see fit. It's reasonable to think Paul, Williams and other players from that draft will perform similar in the next two or three years to how they have so far, but for players like Rose who only have three years they should not be in the conversation at all. I'm personally going to list players from that draft separately with a note on where they'll be ranked but if you wish to include them in your formal list that's fine.

Andrew, in every single instance you listed eight years. Example:

Best seven years: I'm going to say 1983-1990

1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990. That's eight years.

If we're using the standard of the year of the Finals to represent that season. (i.e. 1994 NBA Finals is conclusion of 1993-94, thus 1994 to represent 1993-94) This would come off as: 1982-83, 1983-84, 1984-85, 1985-86, 1986-87, 1987-88, 1988-89, 1989-90. That's eight seasons. Same as using the years.

Should note, that you are not required to name the seven years for the player, it is merely a guideline to focus thoughts on the player at his best and to ignore things like Qballer's post.

And should also note that in instances as Andrew mentioned regarding Tim Hardaway, yes, go the extra year. For example, Grant Hill only plays SEVEN FULL SEASONS from 1995-2005 despite it being ten years. Also even if they play, like David Robinson in 1996-97, for a few games, you can skip over/include that season. If a player does something like play 17 games in one season and 55 games in another plus six full seasons, you can include both shortened seasons even if it's eight total seasons/years. It's not really fair to enforce seven calender years on the players.

I guess I did make a mistake there using the first year of the first season and the latter year of the final season in the range, which I do see is inconsistent and misleading. For the sake of clarity I'll go back and edit the post accordingly as the actual seasons I'm referring to remain unchanged.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kidd tops Payton in anyone's list. Kidd's been one of the best all around point guard, probably only next to Magic Johnson. He's achieved so many milestones such as in 3pt field goals made only trailing Reggie and Ray, 2nd overall in assists only behind Stockton, 2nd overall only trailing Magic, 3rd in triple doubles trailing only Magic and Oscar. If he can win a ring as a starter on the team, I think there's a decent chance he'll be considered a better PG than Gary by many people.

So far, he's been placed below Payton in the two full lists that have been posted.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kidd tops Payton in anyone's list. Kidd's been one of the best all around point guard, probably only next to Magic Johnson. He's achieved so many milestones such as in 3pt field goals made only trailing Reggie and Ray, 2nd overall in assists only behind Stockton, 2nd overall only trailing Magic, 3rd in triple doubles trailing only Magic and Oscar. If he can win a ring as a starter on the team, I think there's a decent chance he'll be considered a better PG than Gary by many people.

Don't forget, he hit a steals milestone recently as well, and I've got Kidd above Payton.

I'm kind of lazy to type up a big article about each of the ten best players, besides it's basically the same as the other two right now, so here's an abbreviated list.

1. Magic Johnson (82-88)

2. John Stockton (88-94)

3. Isiah Thomas (82-88)

4. Jason Kidd (you could really pick any year from 98-07, I'm going with 99-05)

5. Steve Nash (05-11) - he's actually averaging better stats now than he was in his two MVP seasons.

6. Gary Payton (95-01)

7. Kevin Johnson (88-94)

8. Mark Price (88-94)

9 & 10. Could go to any of these currently active guys: Rajon Rondo, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker.

Kidd probably won't be in my top 10. I'm wondering though, are we counting Oscar Robertson as a SG or a PG? I'm assuming SG based on these lists.

I'm wondering though, are we counting Oscar Robertson as a SG or a PG? I'm assuming SG based on these lists.

Doesn't really matter since he never played in the three point era.

Oh yeah good point. I keep forgetting the 3 point era is still quite recent

I'm not putting a lot of stock in accomplishments (media voted awards, all star appearances etc) because I don't value them as highly as others do. Ultimately guys dedicate their lives to a sport to win an award that is decided by some random journalist behind a desk saying "yeah you can be MVP this year". Also while championships are important they are also reliant on the teammates you have, so I'm limiting how much stock I put in those also.

1: Magic Johnson 85-91
20.7 PPG | 6.6 RPG | 12.3 APG | .614 TS%
46.3 AST% | 10.2 TRB% | 2.1 STL% | 18.6 TOV% | 123 ORtg | 106 DRtg

2: John Stockton 88-94
16.0 PPG | 3.0 RPG | 13.3 APG | .609 TS%
54.1 AST% | 4.7 TRB% | 3.7 STL% | 20.7 TOV% | 121 ORtg | 104 DRtg

3: Gary Payton 96-02
21.6 PPG | 4.9 RPG | 8.2 APG | .535 TS%
36.7 AST% | 7.1 TRB% | 2.8 STL% | 12.1 TOV% | 113 ORtg | 104 DRtg

4: Kevin Johnson 90-96
19.7 PPG | 3.2 RPG | 9.7 APG | .582 TS%
40.2 AST% | 5.0 TRB% | 2.2 STL% | 16.2 TOV% | 121 ORtg | 109 DRtg

5: Isiah Thomas 83-89
20.7 PPG | 3.8 RPG | 10.0 APG | .529 TS%
38.4 AST% | 5.6 TRB% | 2.7 STL% | 16.3 TOV% | 109 ORtg | 106 DRtg

6: Steve Nash 03-09
16.8 PPG | 3.3 RPG | 10.0 APG | .616 TS%
44.0 AST% | 5.5 TRB% | 1.2 STL% | 13.8 TOV% | 121 ORtg | 110 DRtg

7: Chris Paul 06-11
18.8 PPG | 4.6 RPG | 9.9 APG | .574 TS%
46.7 AST% | 7.3 TRB% | 3.5 STL% | 13.3 TOV% | 121 ORtg | 104 DRtg

8: Mark Price 88-94
17.8 PPG | 2.8 RPG | 7.9 APG | .601 TS%
36.7 AST% | 4.8 TRB% | 2.1 STL% | 14.9 TOV% | 120 ORtg | 108 DRtg

9: Chauncey Billups 03-09
17.1 PPG | 3.3 RPG | 6.4 APG | .592 TS%
31.2 AST% | 5.5 TRB% | 1.7 STL% | 12.8 TOV% | 121 ORtg | 105 DRtg

10: Jason Kidd 98-04
15.4 PPG | 6.6 RPG | 9.6 APG | .504 TS%
41.3 AST% | 9.9 TRB% | 2.8 STL% | 18.2 TOV% | 105 ORtg | 98 DRtg

Just missed the cut:

Sam Cassell 97-04 (extra year due to injury in 98-99)
18.8 PPG | 3.6 RPG | 7.1 APG | .550 TS%
36.2 AST% | 6.1 TRB% | 2.0 STL% | 14.2 TOV% | 112 ORtg | 108 DRtg

Terry Porter 87-93
16.7 PPG | 3.9 RPG | 8.1 APG | .585 TS%
31.2 AST% | 6.1 TRB% | 2.3 STL% | 16.3 TOV% | 119 ORtg | 107 DRtg

Tim Hardaway 91-97
20.6 PPG | 3.5 RPG | 9.3 APG | .540 TS%
38.8 AST% | 5.3 TRB% | 2.5 STL% | 14.3 TOV% | 113 ORtg | 110 DRtg

Possible matters of contention:

Payton over Johnson
This was tough for me but ultimately Payton's D and ability to avoid turning the ball over made me put him higher.

Isiah Thomas at 5
Turned the ball over a bit and wasn't very efficient, but accomplished enough to be top 5

Jason Kidd at 10
Great rebounder, defender, passer... about as efficient as a porn star without a penis and turned the ball over more than most on the list.

Good ranking, Jae. Yours would be the closest it'd resemble if I made one myself. Though I would put someone elses in the places of Billups and Price.

I also definitely think Magic and Stockton are the locks at #1 and 2 respectively.

Does benji plan to have his own rank here?

9 & 10. Could go to any of these currently active guys: Rajon Rondo, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker.

Rondo, Rose and Westbrook have only been in the league 3-4 years. Where on earth would you pull a 7-year sample from?

Please take issue with and question this. We need some debate in this thread.

1. Magic Johnson / 6-8 / 215

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1985-91	20.3	6.5	12.1	1.56	.614	123	25.2	14.2	10.6	3.6	.243
1980-86	17.8	7.5	10.4	2.15	.608	119	22.9	11.0	7.4	3.6	.206

The earlier Magic was a dominant player and the best at this position, but the later Magic was the transcendent superstar. The later Magic had more scoring abilities, an actual jump shot, was a smarter and wiser defensive player, and when Kareem and others faded away he stepped up and filled the offensive gap. Both could play all five positions, see over smaller defenders and run the showtime offense.

In 1980, Magic's first season he headed to the Finals with Kareem (32/12), Jamaal Wilkes (20/8) and Norm Nixon (17/8). In 1991, Magic took his last trip to the Finals with James Worthy (21/4/4), Sam Perkins (18/8), Vlade Divac (13/7), Byron Scott (13/3) and A.C. Green (7/5). Kicking out 1985, which both Magic's share. Early Magic went to the Finals four times and won twice. Later Magic went to the Finals four times and won twice.

The Later Magic likely would have gone to complete his seven year prime as it was likely supposed to be 1987-93. In 1996 he came back, played power forward after four years away from the game, with fifty extra pounds of fat and still put up 17.6/6.9/8.3 per 36 on 61% scoring.

During the seven year period: Led the NBA in Assist % once, finished in the top two in every year. Top three in ORtg five times. Top three in offensive win shares six times leading the league in 1986-87. Five times in the top three of overall win shares, with a 4th place finish in 1991. Five times in the top three for win shares per minute, leading the league in 1986-87.

2. John Stockton / 6-1 / 170

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1988-94	15.8	2.9	13.3	2.74	.608	121	22.9	13.6	9.2	4.5	.219
1995-01	14.7	3.1	11.0	2.03	.626	123	22.3	11.0	8.1	2.9	.220

Stockton didn't have a split in his career like Magic, no, he really just had one fourteen year prime. He did make slight changes in his game as he got on the other side of 32, and the changes reflected changes that the Jazz themselves undertook. The Jazz of the late 1980s and early 1990s was a defensive powerhouse while the later 1990s Jazz were an offensive machine powered by the Stockalone pick n' roll. Stockton similarly let up some on his defense, in particular steals and taking on a bit rougher defense to slow faster younger guards, and how much he handled the ball for a slower more efficient offense that better fit with declining athleticism.

In many respects, Stockton is the greatest "normal" point guard in history. Magic is a freak at 6-8, while Stockton is a more traditional size for point guards. Yet spent almost fifteen years nearly as good and still better than everyone else who has played the position. He's not quite the scorer of some of the people lower on this list but with Karl Malone good for 25-30 points a game every year, in part thanks to Stockton, he didn't need to be. Instead he countered the traditional high turnover rate for a point guard with incredible scoring efficiency.

Lead the league in Assist % for every single year of the period. (From 1986-2003 only finished second three times.) Led the league in Steal % in 1988 and 1989, finished in the top three from 1990-92. Lead the league in Offensive Rating four times from 1995-01, finished second in 1997.

3. Chauncey Billups / 6-3 / 202

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2003-09	17.8	3.4	6.6	1.11	.592	121	20.7	12.0	8.9	3.1	.215

During this period Billups went to the Conference Finals every single year. Even after being traded to the Nuggets he helped them to yet another Conference Finals.

Billups would have wound up somewhere had he kept playing like he did in the first two years of this period. But then something changed and he became one of the best offensive players in the league. Since 2005 he has yet to post a ORtg under 120 and TS under 59%. It's easy to see why, he combines three point shooting with a high rate of drawing free throws that he then makes while having an incredibly low turnover rate for a point guard that handles the ball as much as he does. Over the last six years he's finished in the top ten for offensive rating every single time, and from 2006-08 finished in the top three every year, finishing first in 2006 as the Pistons won 64 games despite only playing six and a half players.

Only six guards have ever had three or more years at 22+% usage and an ORtg of 120+. Two will show up later in this list, one already showed up at the top of this list, one more will show up at top of the SG list and the other one is Reggie Miller.

So why Billups over those other two? Defense and health. While Billups isn't a defensive superstar he's a smart defender who uses his size well and when he puts in the effort can control all but the best guards. Despite pairing with Rip Hamilton in the backcourt the Pistons' defense never really suffered. He was also good for at least 78 games in most seasons.

4. Gary Payton / 6-4 / 180

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1996-02	19.5	4.4	7.4	1.90	.535	113	22.1	11.6	8.3	3.3	.182

Payton might be the tragedy of this list. Right as he starts to peak his team implodes and he has to latch onto Shaq to get back to the Finals and a ring.

Payton was close to an ideal point guard, could score, distribute, was beyond durable, great defender, etc. But circumstances really hurt him in various ways. He's an efficient scorer around 20 points when he plays with other good players, but once they move on he takes on a bigger load and has to start jacking up more shots. He does manage to somehow cut his turnovers while taking more shots and using more possessions though, so he doesn't lose too much ground overall. Really, what Payton illustrates is how hard it is to ever build around a point guard.

5. Kevin Johnson / 6-1 / 180

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1990-97	19.8	3.3	9.7	1.58	.588	119	21.7	10.4	8.1	2.2	.188

Alright, let's ignore how many laws he broke to become and during his term as Mayor. One has to wonder if Johnson wasn't injured constantly from 1993-96 if the Suns wouldn't have won a title with all those 55+ win teams. Johnson during 1990 and 1991 was brutal and Ainge spotted him perfectly alongside Kidd in 1997. He gets the nod over the next few because he was epic on offense and also a solid defender whereas the next two split it.

6. Steve Nash / 6-3 / 195

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2003-09	17.7	3.5	10.6	0.87	.616	121	21.8	10.6	9.3	1.3	.191

We'll be fair, we talked about his era competition going to Conference Finals. Nash went to four during this period. And to also be fair he did have much tougher competition. Plus his best player skipped a year.

Nash is basically proto-Stockton without the defense. He's improved as he's aged due to an ever improving diet and routine. He's perfected the shooting, although his distribution isn't a Billups level, and shown success with all sorts of different team makeups. But we do need to discuss the fact that he's the worst defensive player of all the point guard greats. The interesting thing is Nash is maybe underrated defensively because people imagine him as a complete sieve but he's worked hard to become someone who can at least check most guards, especially as he added size. The fact he's been on the Suns and Mavericks has not helped, if he were on the Spurs or modern Celtics, or late 80s Pistons he would have been covered more than enough. Despite this defensive deficiency he has an advantage over...

Lead the league in TS from 2005-07, ORtg in 2006-07 and Assist % 2005-07.

7. Jason Kidd / 6-4 / 205

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2001-07	14.6	6.8	8.8	1.88	.508	106	19.8	9.1	4.0	5.1	.154

The thing that's been lost for over a decade now when discussing Jason Kidd has been some fantastic evidence that pretty much everyone just pays attention to offense. So when they see Kidd they see passing and create these fantasies where he is "making everyone better" with his passing and getting everyone involved. And while all these people who WATCH THE GAMES are touting the amazing offense they're missing the real story.

Kidd stinks on offense. He passes so much because he's terrible on offense otherwise. He's a fantastic passer, don't ignore that, but he gets everyone else "involved" in the same way that Trenton Hassell did, because he's not a legitimate option most of the time. Why has Kidd had his best success in Dallas? Because there's other players to pay attention to, and he's added a three point shot.

But despite this, we can't ignore a simple fact. Kidd is the best defensive point guard of the era. And maybe the best ever. Look at where his teams finished from 2000-06: 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 4th, 7th, 4th. This happened with defensive superstars like Rodney Rogers, Keith Van Horn, Kerry Kittles, Vince Carter, and Nenad Krstic logging major minutes. Sure, he had Kenyon Martin, Shawn Marion, Cliff Robinson, Richard Jefferson and Jason Collins but Kidd was the key player.

If Kidd ran into an issue, it was that he was stuck on teams that couldn't score. The Suns weren't great after the turn of the century, the Nets were worse, and he's with the last revision of the Mavericks now. Imagine Kidd on the Kings, that would have been something to talk about.

8. Terry Porter / 6-3 / 195

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1987-93	17.1	4.0	8.3	1.79	.585	119	18.4	10.0	6.7	3.3	.168

Porter was brutally efficient. Close to Billups style. Over a three year period he helped the team to 57+ wins every season, two NBA Finals and a Western Conference Finals. He shot well from outside, got to the line and connected from there, while distributing and playing good defense. He also put on an offensive clinic in the 1992 playoffs on their way to defeat at the hands of tbe Bulls.

9. Mark Price / 6-0 / 170

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1988-95	19.3	3.0	8.5	1.47	.597	119	21.0	9.2	6.8	2.3	.183

At his best Price is pretty much up there as much as anyone else on the offense end. But injuries limited him basically to this seven year period only, and he was never the best defender although he was a pretty solid thief. Price helped the Cavs to a Eastern Conference Finals in 1992 which was that teams unfortunate peak. His placing here shows just how interchangable and thus ultimately unconsequential most point guards have been despite the advantages offered them.

10. Tim Hardaway / 6-0 / 175

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1992-98	19.0	3.3	8.7	1.67	.537	113	19.6	9.3	6.7	2.5	.183

Someone inform Tim that he barely won this spot. A coin-flip almost. But in the end Hardaway found himself in that spot between the upper tier which either scored well or defended well, and that lower tier that only did one. Hardaway did both, but leaned towards offense through having the ball a lot. He fit into Riley's defensive system in Miami well enough to give him some boost during this period. It will be hard for him to not be more set in the history books for throwing a monitor onto the court or ranting about gays however.

We Got Next
3. Chris Paul / 6-0 / 175

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
2006-11	18.2	4.4	9.2	2.31	.573	121	25.3	10.6	7.6	3.0	.235

Ask the common NBA fan which point guard has had the two best individual seasons in history. You won't get Chris Paul enough to matter.

Nobody has done what Paul did in 2008 and 2009. His dominance was unmatched. And in 2008 he continued it into the playoffs. Despite going out in seven to the Spurs in the second round he left the playoffs with the best PER, highest AST%, most Offensive Win Shares and best WS/48.

Paul should have won the 2008 MVP. There isn't really a debate here. Nobody could compare to what Paul at 6 foot did that season. The best way to describe it? Stockton at 25% usage.

You get it now.

If Paul puts up another season like any single one of his career next year, he rockets up to #3 on this list. Paul is simply the ultimate point guard in league history. He bested Magic at eight inches shorter. If he teams up in New York or with Dwight? Forget it.

The guy has no legit outside jumper but he's shooting 40+% from beyond the arc the last two seasons. He hits 85+% from the line. He hands out 10 assists like candy. He rips 2.5 steals like it's nothing. The turnovers? He's approaching Billups territory. He's simply the greatest point guard under 6-8 the game has ever seen.

If Paul can avoid injuries and restore himself to 2008-09 status for another five to seven years the debate is over. Paul is the greatest point guard in the history of the league. Magic was amazing, but even he can't compare to what Paul has already shown us. No, it's not fair, but neither is LeBron, neither is Dwight, we don't live in the era where things are fair anymore.

The Next Five
Terell Brandon might be the most underrated point guard of the last twenty years despite SI declaring him the best PG in the league back in 1997. Mookie Blaylock can't compare offensively with the rest but he's probably the best defensively after Kidd. Maurice Cheeks should be tossed in the Kidd and Blaylock pile, but unlike those he put up efficent offense and thus helped the Sixers contend for a number of years. Tony Parker is a solid scorer who has taken great advantage from the Spurs system. Isiah Thomas could have me write a book about him, and hopefully someone will question me, but if they don't let me put it this way: Isiah had the ball.

Splits?
Offense: Magic Johnson, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, John Stockton, Chris Paul, Kevin Johnson
Defense: Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Mookie Blaylock, Fat Lever, Chris Paul, Maurice Cheeks

Anyone Else? Even if they suck?
Yes, I do want to throw a few random shoutouts. Fat Lever who was just amazing and I'd love to see a player like him again. Outside my dreams of course. Sam Cassell who was a pure winner, how many teams could have used him while he was cast off to the Mavericks, Nets, Bucks and so on? Darrell Armstrong was a guy who came out of nowhere to become a legit player in the league, even after the layups in the dunk contest, and was actually pretty good for a number of years. Better than Bibby and Mark Jackson ever were.

And of course, Darrick Martin who led the Clippers to the playoffs in 1997. Then helped the Kings to contention where he moved onto the Mavericks to impart his wisdom. Then helped the Wolves to dominance, before stopping off at the Clippers and Raptors to inform them of playoff chances. And he won the CBA MVP somewhere in there.

Godspeed Darrick.

I'd post the Live 98 ACTION SHOT of him but I didn't can't fucking find it in my Pictures folder and can't be assed to search for it more right now.

You have no idea how mad I am that I don't have this Darrick Martin picture instantly at my fingertips.

i nominate God Shammgod for coolest PG name

after reading the first few last night, i wanted to ask but didn't wind up doing it:
why are yall hatin on the old school players? lack of statistical evidence? you can't penalize the Big O for playing in the 60s.
guys worth mentioning: the Big O, Cousy, Tiny Archibald, Clyde Frazier (despite him being a terrible announcer and Just For Men spokesperson... "No play for Mr. Grey")

i nominate God Shammgod for coolest PG name

after reading the first few last night, i wanted to ask but didn't wind up doing it:
why are yall hatin on the old school players? lack of statistical evidence? you can't penalize the Big O for playing in the 60s.
guys worth mentioning: the Big O, Cousy, Tiny Archibald, Clyde Frazier (despite him being a terrible announcer and Just For Men spokesperson... "No play for Mr. Grey")

Read the thread title again: "Greatest of The Three Point Era: Point Guard"

One question. Back in sometime ago, zone defense wasn't allowed and a technical was issued. Also scoring came hard as some of the rules were different such as elbow to the back and hand checking being allowed. Would these factors have affected some of the players mentioned here? Say old players playing in today's rule or vice versa.

One question. Back in sometime ago, zone defense wasn't allowed and a technical was issued. Also scoring came hard as some of the rules were different such as elbow to the back and hand checking being allowed. Would these factors have affected some of the players mentioned here? Say old players playing in today's rule or vice versa.

Yes, Fat Lever would've scored more, as would've Isiah

9 & 10. Could go to any of these currently active guys: Rajon Rondo, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker.

Rondo, Rose and Westbrook have only been in the league 3-4 years. Where on earth would you pull a 7-year sample from?

That's why I left the last two slots blank. I put Rondo, Williams, Paul, Rose, and Westbrook here, because at least a couple of these guys will probably join this list, but haven't yet completed seven years in the league. At this point however, if we disregard those five players, billups and Parker go 9th and 10.

i nominate God Shammgod for coolest PG name

after reading the first few last night, i wanted to ask but didn't wind up doing it:
why are yall hatin on the old school players? lack of statistical evidence? you can't penalize the Big O for playing in the 60s.
guys worth mentioning: the Big O, Cousy, Tiny Archibald, Clyde Frazier (despite him being a terrible announcer and Just For Men spokesperson... "No play for Mr. Grey")

Read the thread title again: "Greatest of The Three Point Era: Point Guard"

dammit failed again
although ben probably edited his original post to make me look more dumb than i already do

I was at first thinking about maybe Andre Miller who could be considered to get mentioned in your post (not among the top 10 for sure, I mean more like Darrell Armstrong), but looking at his stats I may have to take that back. Still, I liked him as a guard and the 01-02 season on one of the worst teams you could imagine was impressive.

Andre Miller / 6-2 / 200[tr]

Years	P/36	R/36	A/36	S/36	TS%	ORtg	PER	WS/Y	OWS/Y	DWS/Y	WS/48
1999-05	14.9	4.4	7.9	1.45	.529	109	18.1	7.1	5.1	2.0	.123

Well he does not belong in here, but as I said I like him and he only missed 5 games in his career so far which is also impressive.