The New Cavalier Curse

Larry Hughes, Ben Wallace, Sczerbiak, Leon Powe, Sczerbiak, Mo Williams, Shaq and now so far Antawn Jamison. Notice these are all talented players. Larry Hughes left Wsh after having the best season of his career but his role diminished on Cle. Mo williams used to be a playmaker and now hes only a shooter. See where im going???

Larry Hughes, Ben Wallace, Sczerbiak, Leon Powe, Sczerbiak, Mo Williams, Shaq and now so far Antawn Jamison. Notice these are all talented players. Larry Hughes left Wsh after having the best season of his career but his role diminished on Cle. Mo williams used to be a playmaker and now hes only a shooter. See where im going???

No i dont. Please explain further. Powe wasnt a beast aside from a 2 game stretch on the C's...Wallace had been very up and down ever since leaving detroit, larry hughes was overrated, Shaq is 5 years past his prime, Antawn has been there for what 4 games?

Little too early to call this one sunshine

no?

Was it a Celtics curse when KG, Ray, and Paul had to take reduced scoring roles because they had to share the spotlight with each other?

Cavs just picked up the big name role players and stars from a few years ago and threw them into the player roles they deserve nowadays.

When Mo williams came in he was supposed to be the new playmaker of the Cavs and take pressure off of Lebron so he could move w/o the ball more. I still havent seen tht yet. Hughes went from 20 ppg to 10ppg. They are not there to just take a backseat 4 Lebron show. They are there 2 help. & Bos cant be compared to Cleveland.

Larry Hughes, Ben Wallace, Sczerbiak, Leon Powe, Sczerbiak, Mo Williams, Shaq and now so far Antawn Jamison. Notice these are all talented players. Larry Hughes left Wsh after having the best season of his career but his role diminished on Cle. Mo williams used to be a playmaker and now hes only a shooter. See where im going???

No, no I don't see where you're going...

Larry Hughes= bad
Wally Szczerbiak= bad
Leon Powe= fragile, bad

Mo Williams was never a "play-maker" he just had the ball in his hands A LOT in Milwaukee, now he doesn't have to do any heavy duty ball handling since he he's not even the best PG in the Cavs' starting five.

Like I said larry hughes was a good player on Wsh back in 05. He led the league in steals and was a defensive stopper. Leon Powe never sucked on the Celtics. Mo williams is good enough to call plays and dribble the ball up the court. Make lebron cut 2 da basket 4 easy pts instead of playing 1 on 5. Its simple.

Because LeBron is the best play maker in the NBA. According to your logic, Mo Williams was a "play maker" on the Bucks (who averaged 31 wins in that span). Hughes had a good contract year, which is not uncommon, ask Adonal Foyle.

I used to watch Mo play for Mil. So I guess any player could dish 6 apg. And its not his fault Mil sucked. Hes not an elite ball distributor but he could get the job done and find open players. And 4 Larry Hughes i guess any player could always be top 5 leader in stls since he was "bad". LeBron best playmaker??! Nada.

When Mo williams came in he was supposed to be the new playmaker of the Cavs and take pressure off of Lebron so he could move w/o the ball more. I still havent seen tht yet. Hughes went from 20 ppg to 10ppg. They are not there to just take a backseat 4 Lebron show. They are there 2 help. & Bos cant be compared to Cleveland.

What are you expecting then? If you haven't noticed, LBJ is the most efficient player in the league. Should some borderline allstar (at best) come in and steal possessions from him?

So I guess any player could dish 6 asts ppg.

In the right system, most of them could. For example, Stephen Jackson during 07-08.

Mo williams used to be a playmaker and now hes only a shooter. See where im going???

Playmaker on a team that couldn't win 30 games in a season? And now when he's playing with LeBron, he should have the same role? Riiight.

When Mo williams came in he was supposed to be the new playmaker of the Cavs and take pressure off of Lebron so he could move w/o the ball more. I still havent seen tht yet. Hughes went from 20 ppg to 10ppg. They are not there to just take a backseat 4 Lebron show. They are there 2 help. & Bos cant be compared to Cleveland.

You havent seen that yet? Then I think you havent watched any games this season. Pretty much every two quarters they do weakside screens with Mo handlin the ball and throwing a pass/alley oop. He also takes pressure off LeBron. At times. But would you like to take the pressure off Kobe before a buzzer beater and give it to Lamar? I dont think so.

And Mo is not taking a seat and watches Lebron, he does help. His numbers havent gone down at all. Even if they were slightly down, what do you expect if theres a guy who can score 40 or dish 20? At times theres just enough room if Lebron does his thing

Mo ppg has not gone down but his asts are down. And u mostly see LeBron bring the ball up the court and take 10 secs of the shot clock just about every possession which is kinda why he avg so many asts. He drives the paint gets clogged so he finds Mo or whoever for 3 or lebron goes straight up 4 contact. Thts wat i see mostly.

Mo ppg has not gone down but his asts are down. And u mostly see LeBron bring the ball up the court and take 10 secs of the shot clock just about every possession which is kinda why he avg so many asts. He drives the paint gets clogged so he finds Mo or whoever for 3 or lebron goes straight up 4 contact. Thts wat i see mostly.

His assists are down but he's winning. Who cares?

Also..you want to use clock. You shoot in the first 5 seconds of the clock every play and see how many games you win.

You shoot in the first 5 seconds of the clock every play and see how many games you win.

Mike D'Antonio and the Knicks say 19

Yea but u also dont want one player holding the ball 4 tht long into the shot clock. U could win as many games as u want but thts not gonna get u championship. Lakers run triangle offense and play more as a team. Same goes Denver, Orl, Utah and Dallas whos hot rite now. None of their players do that.

Yea but u also dont want one player holding the ball 4 tht long into the shot clock. U could win as many games as u want but thts not gonna get u championship. Lakers run triangle offense and play more as a team. Same goes Denver, Orl, Utah and Dallas whos hot rite now. None of their players do that.

So you're actually blaming the Mike Brown & the Cavs' coaching team, not the player's that get brought in. Mike Brown is a defensive coach. His offensive philosophy is give the ball to Lebron, space the floor & let Lebron create. In this sort of system, off-the-ball catch & shoot players such as Mo Williams thrive (he was catch & shoot like Redd in Milwaukee, glad they're both gone so Bogut can lead them), energy players such as Varejao are also good.

Wally World failed because he's not a catch & shoot player, nor was he ever one. Plus injuries had made him even less effective.

Larry Hughes was always an ineffective & inefficient player. He always had talent but never had a good shot or good shot selection. As others have said, he had a great contract year, & he was playing in a more open offensive system with Gilbert Arenas.

Ben Wallace sucked from moment he left the Pistons. He probably should've been better in Cleveland given their system but he didn't play with the heart he did in Detroit.

Leon Powe is just back from injury. I think he's a nice backup PF & should help them come playoff time.

Shaq hasn't been a star in half a decade so no surprises. He clogs up space which doesn't help the team spread the floor. Didn't like the trade at the time for Cleveland, but ahh well.

As for Jamison, I thought they got him a year or two late. Too early to tell his impact but I'm sure Cavs' style of play will cause a drop of his numbers across the board.

In the end, if you want Lebron to handle the ball less, it sounds like you want Cavs to have a different coach

4got to mention tht. Its not the players its the coaching staff. youre 100% correct. The cavaliers are so predictable. Everybody knows what theyre going to do but since Lebron is so talented its just that more difficult to stop them. I thought Shaq had a good yr in 09. He jus didnt fit well w/ the Suns bc they dont run a hc off.

I think most of it has been covered already, it mostly comes down to players taking on a different role (not unusual), being on the downside of their careers and/or playing fewer minutes (hence less gaudy stats), personal and personality issues, injuries and just not being a good fit (the old case of what looks good on paper doesn't work out on the court). There's no mystery to it, other teams can offer their own examples.

Larry Hughes, Ben Wallace, Sczerbiak, Leon Powe, Sczerbiak, Mo Williams, Shaq and now so far Antawn Jamison. Notice these are all talented players. Larry Hughes left Wsh after having the best season of his career but his role diminished on Cle. Mo williams used to be a playmaker and now hes only a shooter. See where im going???

Does this mean the Bulls had a curse during the 90s? I think Cleveland would welcome it if that was the case.

I dont get ur point? 90s Bulls were a totally different team than the Cavs now. They won championships. Every player on their team played their roll. The Cavs are not as good as people think. Remember in 94 the bulls made the playoffs w/o Jordan. What does that tell you? cavs wont even come close w/o Lebron. badreligionau

They've yet to win a championship but everyone on the Cavs is playing their role, too. Some have been better suited to their roles than others and some haven't been given enough time to pan out, particularly Antawn Jamison and Leon Powe. Jamison is still getting used to a new team and Powe is returning after an injury that was described as potentially career threatening at one point.

i'll make an exception 4 Jamison and Powe. But I really hope they dont turnout like Hughes or the other players. im really happy Powe is back. His energy should fit well with Hickson and Varejao. They could cause havoc in the post for other teams. And i still see Jamison as a guy tht can drop 40 not every but any given night.

I know the 90s Bulls are a very good team, but I also think the Cavs are a good team as well. Yes, if you took away LBJ, the team would struggle to make the playoffs, but you look at the rest of the team and I'm sure plenty of coaches would be happy with the roster. If you gave me a team with Shaq, Anderson Varejao, Anthony Parker, Jamario Moon, JJ Hickson and Antawn Jamison, I'd be very happy. I find myself often skeptical of Delonte West, but even he's a pretty good role player to have.

i'll make an exception 4 Jamison and Powe. But I really hope they dont turnout like Hughes or the other players. im really happy Powe is back. His energy should fit well with Hickson and Varejao. They could cause havoc in the post for other teams. And i still see Jamison as a guy tht can drop 40 not every but any given night.

But even with the other players, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation. As I said before there are injuries, players on the downside of their career, bad fits, expectations that were set too high and so on. To be specific, Shaq is clearly at the tail end of his career and he's playing career low minutes this season, in part because they don't need him to play 30+ minutes every game. Larry Hughes had some decent years but he wasn't going to cut it as LeBron's sidekick and he wore out his welcome, just like he's done everywhere else he's played. Mo Williams is still playing well - playing alongside LeBron was enough to get him an All-Star selection - but his assists aren't as high as perhaps they could be because the ball is in LeBron's hands a lot of the time. Ben Wallace is at the tail end of his career too and seemed by and large unmotivated in between his stints for the Pistons. Szczerbiak was a poor fit and a bit past his prime.

Alright, let's discuss these players.

Larry Hughes
3.8% steals led the league but was far above his 2.5% career average and his 2.8% (2002) career high. FLUKE. He scored at 52% that year, something he's only done twice in his career, 2003 in WAS and for 30 games with the Bulls to start 2008-09. His career average is 49%. FLUKE. He assisted on 22% of the Wizards baskets, second most of his career after 26% in 2002, when GSW played him as a point guard before Arenas pushed his way into the starting lineup. Career average? 18%. FLUKE. Notice that he only plays 36 games in his first year with Cleveland. Before he broke his finger he was scoring at 51% and his turnovers were the same as the year before in Washington. When he came back he scored at 46% and his turnovers doubled.

Cleveland gives $70 million to inefficient player (Career ORtg of 100) who needs to the ball to do anything (Career USG of 24%), player stays inefficient (98 ORtg) and wastes possessions (22%) and this is shocking?

Ben Wallace
Age at which the Cavaliers acquire Ben Wallace: 33. Here's the biggest problem with your Wallace mention. His block and steal rates during 2008-09 were pretty much identical to those in 2006-07. He's great off the bench in 2008-09, and plays just as well in the playoffs for the Cavs as he did for the Bulls when you factor in his increasing age, injuries and lack of mobility.

Wally Szczerbiak
2006: Knee surgery. 2007: Surgery on both ankles. But let's look at last season shall we. Szczerbiak scores at 58%, turns it over at 11%, blocks/steals at 0.5%/1.0%, rebounds at 9%, ORtg of 116. Career averages? 57%, 11%, 0.6%/1.0%, 7.5%, 113. Considering one knee and both ankles have been repaired I'm seeing a player putting up the same numbers but using fewer possessions because he's on a better team. (P.S. He was never the second best player on an actual contender, was always a fourth-best type of guy.)

Leon Powe
Had career-threatening injury before Cavaliers signed him. Only has played one game.

Wally Szczerbiak
2006: Knee...Oh...you listed him twice.

Maurice Williams
Williams in his last year in Milwaukee scored at 57% with 15% turnovers, using 22% possessions, with 1.7%/0.3% steal/blocks. This year in Cleveland he's at 57% with 15%, using 22% and 1.8%/0.5% s/b. (Last year? 59%, 13%, 23%, 1.3%/0.3%.) He was the top ballhandler on the Bucks out of necessity, when Ford was healthy he wasn't it, not out of some strange idea that this guy was a floor general and playmaker ala John Stockton. If the Cavs were signing him to take away the playmaker duties from LeBron, it'd be like taking Walter Davis off the 1985 Suns sending him to the Lakers and telling Magic to play off the ball.

Shaquille O'Neal
You were expecting a 37 year old Shaq to play as well as he he had earlier in his career? For what it's worth, he's playing as well or better than he did from in 2006-07 and 2007-08.

Antawn Jamison
Another player at 33 and on the downswing of his career. Plus it's been four games. Two of which were pretty good, two of which stunk. Look at his last four Wizards games, all of them stunk.

I dont get ur point? 90s Bulls were a totally different team than the Cavs now. They won championships. Every player on their team played their roll. The Cavs are not as good as people think. Remember in 94 the bulls made the playoffs w/o Jordan. What does that tell you? cavs wont even come close w/o Lebron. badreligionau

Let's say it's the late 90s and I make a thread that says things like "just five years ago Pippen was averaging 22ppg 8-9rpg 5-6apg and 3 steals (leading the league!) now he's just getting 19/5/8/2!" or "Ron Harper was a 20+ppg scorer for the Cavs and Clippers he's getting like 7ppg for the Bulls!" or "Scott Burrell was putting up 12pts and 5rebs for the Hornets, now he's getting 5 and 3 for the Bulls!" or "5 and 15 for Rodman? He got 8-10 and 18-19 a few years back on the Pistons!" or "13/4/4 for Kukoc? The guy got 16/5/5 in HIS SECOND YEAR?!??!?" or "Steve Kerr is only scoring at 58% this year, last three years was 64%, 66%, 67% WTF"

JORDAN/BULLS CURSE.

And u mostly see LeBron bring the ball up the court and take 10 secs of the shot clock just about every possession which is kinda why he avg so many asts. He drives the paint gets clogged so he finds Mo or whoever for 3 or lebron goes straight up 4 contact. Thts wat i see mostly.

But yet they keep winning! Damn them for not completely changing the way they play and turning the best player in the league into an off-the-ball Rip Hamilton clone!

Also, take a look at the shot clock usage, efficiencies and scoring:
http://www.82games.com/0910/0910CLE3.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/0910LAL3.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/0910DEN3.HTM

The Cavaliers shoot better in every segment of the shot clock. They can also afford to go deep in the clock because LeBron creates so many baskets. A Nuggets or Lakers deep clock = Kobe/Melo/Billups jumper. A Cavaliers deep clock = LeBron barrelling down the lane bodies flying everywhere. (Or the occasional jumper. Which LeBron hits at 45%, Kobe at 47%, Melo at 41% so it's a wash really. LeBron's also the best of the three at scoring in the last three seconds of the clock.)

And wait...

He drives the paint gets clogged so he finds Mo or whoever for 3 or lebron goes straight up 4 contact.

So you're complaining that LeBron consistently delivers the two best scoring opportunites (open threes and free throws)? (And you missed when he barrels down the lane draws the defense farther out and hits Varejao/Shaq/etc. for easy buckets under the hoop. Which would be the third of those "best scoring opportunies" in the game.)

The Cavs shoot better on jumpers and inside than the Lakers and Nuggets, two teams that I'd argue have more talented and BETTER shooters and inside scorers. I'm thinking LeBron has a lot to do with that.

Yea but u also dont want one player holding the ball 4 tht long into the shot clock. U could win as many games as u want but thts not gonna get u championship. Lakers run triangle offense and play more as a team. Same goes Denver, Orl, Utah and Dallas whos hot rite now. None of their players do that.

You're aware that Carmelo uses just as many possessions as LeBron and that Kobe is next in line, right?

If you haven't noticed, LBJ is the most efficient player in the league.

He can't have noticed that, since LeBron isn't. (Chris Paul or Chauncey Billups.)

Alright, let's discuss these players.

Larry Hughes
3.8% steals led the league but was far above his 2.5% career average and his 2.8% (2002) career high. FLUKE. He scored at 52% that year, something he's only done twice in his career, 2003 in WAS and for 30 games with the Bulls to start 2008-09. His career average is 49%. FLUKE. He assisted on 22% of the Wizards baskets, second most of his career after 26% in 2002, when GSW played him as a point guard before Arenas pushed his way into the starting lineup. Career average? 18%. FLUKE. Notice that he only plays 36 games in his first year with Cleveland. Before he broke his finger he was scoring at 51% and his turnovers were the same as the year before in Washington. When he came back he scored at 46% and his turnovers doubled.

Cleveland gives $70 million to inefficient player (Career ORtg of 100) who needs to the ball to do anything (Career USG of 24%), player stays inefficient (98 ORtg) and wastes possessions (22%) and this is shocking?

Ben Wallace
Age at which the Cavaliers acquire Ben Wallace: 33. Here's the biggest problem with your Wallace mention. His block and steal rates during 2008-09 were pretty much identical to those in 2006-07. He's great off the bench in 2008-09, and plays just as well in the playoffs for the Cavs as he did for the Bulls when you factor in his increasing age, injuries and lack of mobility.

Wally Szczerbiak
2006: Knee surgery. 2007: Surgery on both ankles. But let's look at last season shall we. Szczerbiak scores at 58%, turns it over at 11%, blocks/steals at 0.5%/1.0%, rebounds at 9%, ORtg of 116. Career averages? 57%, 11%, 0.6%/1.0%, 7.5%, 113. Considering one knee and both ankles have been repaired I'm seeing a player putting up the same numbers but using fewer possessions because he's on a better team. (P.S. He was never the second best player on an actual contender, was always a fourth-best type of guy.)

Leon Powe
Had career-threatening injury before Cavaliers signed him. Only has played one game.

Wally Szczerbiak
2006: Knee...Oh...you listed him twice.

Maurice Williams
Williams in his last year in Milwaukee scored at 57% with 15% turnovers, using 22% possessions, with 1.7%/0.3% steal/blocks. This year in Cleveland he's at 57% with 15%, using 22% and 1.8%/0.5% s/b. (Last year? 59%, 13%, 23%, 1.3%/0.3%.) He was the top ballhandler on the Bucks out of necessity, when Ford was healthy he wasn't it, not out of some strange idea that this guy was a floor general and playmaker ala John Stockton. If the Cavs were signing him to take away the playmaker duties from LeBron, it'd be like taking Walter Davis off the 1985 Suns sending him to the Lakers and telling Magic to play off the ball.

Shaquille O'Neal
You were expecting a 37 year old Shaq to play as well as he he had earlier in his career? For what it's worth, he's playing as well or better than he did from in 2006-07 and 2007-08.

Antawn Jamison
Another player at 33 and on the downswing of his career. Plus it's been four games. Two of which were pretty good, two of which stunk. Look at his last four Wizards games, all of them stunk.

I dont get ur point? 90s Bulls were a totally different team than the Cavs now. They won championships. Every player on their team played their roll. The Cavs are not as good as people think. Remember in 94 the bulls made the playoffs w/o Jordan. What does that tell you? cavs wont even come close w/o Lebron. badreligionau

Let's say it's the late 90s and I make a thread that says things like "just five years ago Pippen was averaging 22ppg 8-9rpg 5-6apg and 3 steals (leading the league!) now he's just getting 19/5/8/2!" or "Ron Harper was a 20+ppg scorer for the Cavs and Clippers he's getting like 7ppg for the Bulls!" or "Scott Burrell was putting up 12pts and 5rebs for the Hornets, now he's getting 5 and 3 for the Bulls!" or "5 and 15 for Rodman? He got 8-10 and 18-19 a few years back on the Pistons!" or "13/4/4 for Kukoc? The guy got 16/5/5 in HIS SECOND YEAR?!??!?" or "Steve Kerr is only scoring at 58% this year, last three years was 64%, 66%, 67% WTF"

JORDAN/BULLS CURSE.

And u mostly see LeBron bring the ball up the court and take 10 secs of the shot clock just about every possession which is kinda why he avg so many asts. He drives the paint gets clogged so he finds Mo or whoever for 3 or lebron goes straight up 4 contact. Thts wat i see mostly.

But yet they keep winning! Damn them for not completely changing the way they play and turning the best player in the league into an off-the-ball Rip Hamilton clone!

Also, take a look at the shot clock usage, efficiencies and scoring:
http://www.82games.com/0910/0910CLE3.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/0910LAL3.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/0910DEN3.HTM

The Cavaliers shoot better in every segment of the shot clock. They can also afford to go deep in the clock because LeBron creates so many baskets. A Nuggets or Lakers deep clock = Kobe/Melo/Billups jumper. A Cavaliers deep clock = LeBron barrelling down the lane bodies flying everywhere.

And wait...

He drives the paint gets clogged so he finds Mo or whoever for 3 or lebron goes straight up 4 contact.

So you're complaining that LeBron consistently delivers the two best scoring opportunites (open threes and free throws)? (And you missed when he barrels down the lane draws the defense farther out and hits Varejao/Shaq/etc. for easy buckets under the hoop. Which would be the third of those "best scoring opportunies" in the game.)

The Cavs shoot better on jumpers and inside than the Lakers and Nuggets, two teams that I'd argue have more talented and BETTER shooters and inside scorers. I'm thinking LeBron has a lot to do with that.

Yea but u also dont want one player holding the ball 4 tht long into the shot clock. U could win as many games as u want but thts not gonna get u championship. Lakers run triangle offense and play more as a team. Same goes Denver, Orl, Utah and Dallas whos hot rite now. None of their players do that.

You're aware that Carmelo uses just as many possessions as LeBron and that Kobe is next in line, right?

If you haven't noticed, LBJ is the most efficient player in the league.

He can't have noticed that, since LeBron isn't. (Chris Paul or Chauncey Billups.)

Andrew youre right.
& Benji my God wat the hell is all this.
I will respond to only one of those Mo Williams is no John Stockton but he can find open players and dish some nice passes.Just look at some footage of him. But stats are not always the direction to go when proving a point. Example Vince Carter is a great passer but no one can tell bc of his assists average. So i prefer actually watching games.