Worst Starter in Each Position?

[Abctest123]

I remember creating a similar (or same thread) back in my early days when I was new to this forum, though it's been wiped out since the last time the forums were updated I believe (whatever it is, it's behind the earliest post I can see of mine in my post history). Rosters have changed plus players have got better/worse so might as well just try this again.

So yeah, as the title states, who do you feel are the worst starters in the league at each position? Try to avoid guys who are just in there for a few games when the regular starting player is out with injury.

My own list. Too lazy to post reasoning at the moment...gonna put on my flame suit on in case people get angry with my selections or lack of reasoning.

PG - Derek Fisher
SG - Charlie Bell (albeit he really isn't a starter for the Bucks, but Redd is out for the season and not just a few games)
SF - Damien Wilkins
PF - Vladimir Radmanovic (you're on a team where you just bomb 3s and you were a 3 point specialist yet you're shooting 28% from 3...)
C - No one particularly horrific stands out to me who's starting at the 5 (it's a weak position, not one in particular seems to stick out as horrible); possibly Nazr Mohammed (though he's just in there for Tyson Chandler temporarily) or Nenad Krstic perhaps?

[Andrew]

I remember creating a similar (or same thread) back in my early days when I was new to this forum, though it's been wiped out since the last time the forums were updated I believe (whatever it is, it's behind the earliest post I can see of mine in my post history).

I'm not sure why what would be as we haven't lost any posts and the search database has actually been rebuilt since we upgraded to phpBB3 a couple of years back. At any rate, certainly no harm in discussing a topic like this each season.

Point Guard: I think it's between Earl Watson, Chris Duhon and Randy Foye. It's not that they don't bring anything to the table but Watson and Duhon are shooting the ball pretty poorly, Foye's not doing too much better and the only reason they're starting is because of injuries or a simple lack of depth (Nate Robinson could probably start over Duhon but he's a bit to erratic). Of all the players currently starting at point guard, I'd say they're the bottom three but they're all capable of being solid backups. If I had to pick one I'd probably go with Duhon since he's been the Knicks' regular starter all season whereas the other two are replacing the regular starters.

Shooting Guard: Deshawn Stevenson. Admittedly he's only averaging 16 minutes per game so his numbers aren't going to be gaudy though he is seeing around 25 minutes per game as a starter. His numbers aren't that much better though and he's shooting the ball terribly as a starter, sub and overall. He's only starting as Flip Saunders tries to figure out who he prefers to fill in for Mike Miller but he's started eight games out of 31 and the last couple, so I feel he qualifies here.

Small Forward: I'd probably go with Damien Wilkins as well. There's a lot of talent at that position, if some of the players don't have eye-popping numbers or are having a bit of a down year. Wilkins is the least impressive player starting at the position.

Power Forward: Jared Jeffries, though it's worth noting that in the absence of Anthony Randolph the Warriors have started some very unconventional players at power forward this season. They did the same thing last year too.

Centre: I'd probably have to go with Nazr Mohammed as well, though as you noted it's kind of a cheat as he's only been starting in place of the injured Tyson Chandler, who is not the worst starter at the position and Mohammed isn't too bad as a backup. Of the regular starters, maybe Brendan Haywood but even then it's more a case of someone having to be in last place rather than him being a complete and utter scrub.

[air gordon]

from the top of my head

fisher
hinrich
brandon rush
taj gibson
jared Jeffries
Tyson Chandler when he was healthy

Haywood's almost averaging a double double +2blks per lol

[Oznogrd]

well i was gonna put a what's wrong with fisher...then i looked at his stats for the season...he's sucking it up pretty bad...

PG-Fisher's up there but his team does well despite it...I'm going to go with Duhon. ive always thought he sucked and never understood why people like him so much. He was backup to hinrick if that tells you anything.

SG-Sefolosha- he's a starter currently and just...another former bull i dont understand the appeal of

SF-Wilkins seems to be the the best pick here

PF-JJ hickson or Jared Jeffries-i know he has alot of talent around him for hickson but his stats are awful for the usual starting PF.....jeffries are worse

C-Krstic or Chuck Hayes

[J@3]

Yeah gotta admit Haywood's a bit of a strange one he'd probably be nudging the top 8 in the league at that position.

I'll just do bottom 3 starters..

C:
- Tyson Chandler
- Spencer Hawes
- Nenad Krstic

PF:
- Jared Jeffries
- Boris Diaw
- Charlie Villanueva (started 16 of 38, it'll do)

SF:
- Vladimir Radmanovic
- Peja Stojakovic
- Luc Mbah a Moute

SG:
- Brandon Rush
- Charlie Bell/Michael Redd
- Devin Brown

PG:
- Derek Fisher
- Chris Duhon
- Rafer Alston

[Rip32]

Derek Fisher isn't very good anymore, but he starts because that team needs a guy who fits the system. The point guard isn't even the main guard in the triangle offense, look at the other guys who've ran the point in Phil's system: Fisher, Paxon, Kerr (when the teams were good). Also, Thabo Seflosha is a really good defensive player, he never was an offensive guy, but he plays pretty good D.

This Season!

PG Devin Harris
- Shooting below 40%, averaging just 6 assists per game with 3 turnovers.

SG Whoever plays beside Chris Paul in New Orleans
- I know Marcus Thorton gets the most of the minutes, but he isn't very good himself and having a second round pick be your best 2.... that's no gooda.

SF Trenton Hassell
- He's never really been good at anything.. he was a solid defender in Minnesota in the mid-2000's, but he doesn't bring anything to the table now.

PF JJ Hickson
- He doesn't have an offensive game to speak of and he doesn't play any D.

C Juwan Howard
- Go home Juwan, I know you bring a stabilizing veteran presence to the injury depleted Blazers, but I don't think you can sustain your 5 points and 4 rebounds per game pace for 49 more games.

[Lamrock]

Good idea. I would go with:

C - Spencer Hawes: Extremely soft, inefficient player. Never thought Jon Brockman would end up being a better pro than him. (Nenad Krstic, Juwan Howard)
PF - Vladimir Radmanovic: Nellie is currently starting one of the worst players in the NBA over Anthony Randolph (possibly the next KG). Good work. (honorable mention: Jared Jeffries, Elton Brand)
SF - Al Thornton: Antoine Walker 2.0 (honorable mention: Peja, Wilkins)
SG - Deshawn Stevenson: The Wizards are starting a guy with a PER of 4.4 (honorable mention: Devin Brown, Aaron Afflalo)
PG - Jose Calderon: An off-kilter pick, but this guy's offensive talent is more than negated by his being by far the worst defender in the NBA. The fact that the team went on a big winning streak once Jarrett Jack replaced him in the starting five really says something. (honorable mention: Duhon, Conley Jr.)

[TheOriginalCandyMan]

Lamrock, Al Thornton is not Antoine Walker 2.0
See Antoine Walker was slightly more efficient on the offensive side and made more 3s

[benji]

Haywood? Really? Along with Jamison he's the only thing holding that team together and keeping them from being as bad as last year.

Damien Wilkins isn't anywhere near as bad as you can get. Some of you guys are setting the bar way too high.

Minimum eighteen starts. Top fifteen. Plus the three centers (who are farther down) up top.

Player	POS	P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Usg%	ORtg	PER	LBJ%	LBJ%*
LeBron James	F	27.6	6.7	7.2	.611	33.7	121	31.2	100.0	100.0
Vladimir Radmanovic	F	10.3	7.3	1.7	.454	15.6	92	8.3	-0.6**	-0.2**
Corey Brewer	G/F	14.7	4.6	2.3	.478	21.4	93	11.3	0.5	0.2
Jonny Flynn	G	16.9	2.8	4.9	.504	24.1	97	13.0	1.1	0.5
Trenton Hassell	F/G	8.6	5.1	1.5	.504	12.4	102	8.3	2.1	0.6
Brandon Rush	G/F	10.0	5.3	1.6	.477	14.3	92	8.4	2.4	0.6
Dahntay Jones	G/F	14.7	4.3	2.7	.506	20.6	96	10.1	2.3	0.8
Charlie Bell	G	10.4	2.9	2.5	.483	14.8	98	8.0	4.4	1.1
Courtney Lee	G	12.3	3.8	2.2	.477	17.7	99	11.6	4.0	1.5
Thaddeus Young	F	15.0	5.6	1.6	.500	21.5	99	12.9	3.9	1.6
Chris Douglas-Roberts	F/G	15.1	4.4	2.0	.513	21.2	99	13.4	3.9	1.7
Devin Brown	G	14.6	4.1	2.2	.531	20.4	100	11.5	4.7	1.7
Jared Jeffries	F	6.0	5.6	2.1	.489	9.5	103	8.9	6.2	1.8
Trevor Ariza	F	14.9	5.3	3.6	.468	22.6	95	12.4	5.1	2.0
Thabo Sefolosha	G	7.1	6.5	2.2	.487	11.1	96	9.2	7.1	2.1
Derek Fisher	G	9.4	3.4	3.7	.483	13.9	101	8.7	7.5	2.1
Tyson Chandler	C	9.2	9.7	0.6	.573	14.3	96	9.7	7.8	2.4
Mikki Moore	C	10.2	6.1	3.2	.606	12.2	114	11.4	8.7	3.2
Spencer Hawes	C	14.1	7.6	2.7	.522	19.4	104	14.1	9.7	4.4

*PER double counted.
**Not sure how this is possible.

Kristic (LBJ%: 17.2/7.4)? Hayes (14.1/5.8)? Come on. Guys like Rodney Suckey (10.3/5.2), Caron Butler (7.6/3.3), Kenyon Martin (12.2/5.2) are lower than them.

I remember creating a similar (or same thread) back in my early days when I was new to this forum, though it's been wiped out since the last time the forums were updated I believe (whatever it is, it's behind the earliest post I can see of mine in my post history). Rosters have changed plus players have got better/worse so might as well just try this again.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=28827

[Andrew]

Haywood's a critical research failure on my part, I certainly take that back. In light of that, I'll go with Hawes.

[NovU]

Arroyo would have been my first choice even though he hasn't started that much and are moved to the bench with Rafer coming.

How about Yi at PF? Yi was in benjo's worst player list despite of somewhat ok numbers.

[Fresh8]

Entire Nets starting five?

[Andrew]

Entire Nets starting five?

Not with Brook Lopez in the lineup.

[Fresh8]

Entire Nets starting five?

Not with Brook Lopez in the lineup.

4/5 of it then.

[Modifly]

C-Krstic or Chuck Hayes

I dont think Chuck Hayes belong in this list. His numbers aren't anywhere close to good but if you watch him play you'll know what Hayes is all about.

[Oznogrd]

C-Krstic or Chuck Hayes

I dont think Chuck Hayes belong in this list. His numbers aren't anywhere close to good but if you watch him play you'll know what Hayes is all about.

Benji's stats say you are correct sir...but the numbers i saw before benjis said he sucked pretty hardcore.

[Rip32]

I know benji is the god of the basketball statistic, but I don't know that stats can totally define a player and the impact he has on the court (unless it's Vlad Radmanovic). Chuck Hayes obviously makes a good enough impact to start at center on a pretty solid team, that alone is impressive, seeing as he's an undrafted 6-6 center. It's like Hollinger on ESPN. I don't really like him because he is stubborn about his stats, he lives and dies by his PER. That's the same stat that says Maurice Speights is a top 20 NBA player.

[benji]

I know benji is the god of the basketball statistic, but I don't know that stats can totally define a player and the impact he has on the court (unless it's Vlad Radmanovic).

Well, it's the only evidence that exists and is useful.

Chuck Hayes obviously makes a good enough impact to start at center on a pretty solid team

That doesn't mean anything as plenty of shitty players start for unexplainable reasons. See the list above, or any Scott Skiles/Larry Brown coached team.

It's like Hollinger on ESPN. I don't really like him because he is stubborn about his stats, he lives and dies by his PER. That's the same stat that says Maurice Speights is a top 20 NBA player.

Except, he's not, and he doesn't. It's not Hollinger's fault ESPN paints his PER as a be-all end-all stat by ranking the players when Hollinger has spent eight years describing it as the "quick summation" which it is.

Speights is basically LaMarcus Aldridge with more rebounding.

Benji's stats say you are correct sir...but the numbers i saw before benjis said he sucked pretty hardcore.

Depends what you want him to do. I wouldn't ask him to score or do anything outside of box out and set picks on offense. But you wouldn't have asked Ben Wallace to do anything beyond that stuff either. (Unless you're Larry Brown.) He's the Rockets best offensive rebounder by far, he's their top thief and top three shot blocker. As a bonus he doesn't get insane turnovers considering how many possessions he uses. He's using 12.5% of possessions, this is high, but I think it's explained by the Rockets lack of "number one option" he's normally a 8% type of guy.

I know I harp on this a lot, but a guy who uses no possessions IS actually useful if he gets offensive rebounds. (And can improve your team a ton of games if he can shoot the lights out on his few touches like a Haywood or Dampier.) And center is the one position where going four-on-five on offense will not kill you. One it frees up the player to set picks, and you don't really go four-on-five since someone has to watch him on the offensive glass. If that player is an active defender like Wallace, Hayes, Jeff Foster, etc. so much the better as it makes up for the lack of offensive output. (Otherwise they need to be more like Dampier and awesome on the offensive end.)

If there's two memes that the media needs to get behind to understand teams it's the concept of possession distribution across the lineup, and as shown by the Suns often and the Grizzlies this year the ability to play just five or six guys most of the game to make up for lack of depth and improve the team without getting better players.

[Oskar]

Kristic (LBJ%: 17.2/7.4)? Hayes (14.1/5.8)? Come on. Guys like Rodney Suckey (10.3/5.2), Caron Butler (7.6/3.3), Kenyon Martin (12.2/5.2) are lower than them.

Wow, just wow.. Are you really saying that Nenad Krstic is a more valuable or a better player than Caron Butler because of some LeBron fkn James stat? That's a bit too much, pal, seeing a stat called LBJ% seems even worse to me than a 7-14 shooting night being a good one and a 6-15 being an horrendous one, a lot of people act that way (not directly you), and that sounds so, so crazy to me. Anyone who's played basketball knows, that you can have a good night (in your own obstacle obviously), but later at the end of the day, you'll see that you have 4 turnovers and you were shooting 2-7, for example. Even though you set up perfect screens, made the great extra passes, lots of stuff like this, it's crazy. And a couple of shots missed, made or taken determine if the player is a chucker, good shooter or what so ever. I guess ya'll know what I mean..

EDIT: Just read on to the last post before mine, wow..

I know benji is the god of the basketball statistic, but I don't know that stats can totally define a player and the impact he has on the court (unless it's Vlad Radmanovic).

Well, it's the only evidence that exists and is useful.

We call these things eyes, they exist and are a lot more useful. I dislike all the statistical things that show how valuable one or another player was for the win the team got. Let's say, your team (say, Cavs) is on the defensive end. Your name is Anderson Varejao (might be mispelt, don't care). JR Smith jacks a 250 feet three point fadeaway, you box out K-Mart with sweat flowing through your curly hair and then the ball falls down right infront of your feet. Out of nowhere, a LeBron flies out and grabs the ball, you keep running and .. At the end of the day, 2 rebounds, an LBJ% of -33.3%. Stupid example, I know, but that's how I feel. You probably think I'm completely retarded 'cause I don't understand all this shizzle you do, but leave it be, stats are kind of silly to me.


Despite the fact I hate stats, they do indeed give you the main overview of what happened. I don't like when people go too far with the statistics though, at times they completely make the person look stupid.

Btw, Speights is a rebounding version of LMA? That's not much, LMA is underachieving aswell.

[Oznogrd]

He used LBJ as a baseline stat. All stats need something for comparison to mean something. Otherwise they're just numbers. Using the highest rated player by most people in the game today as a baseline, he made a stat just as relevant as any other formula stat to evaluate players. Stats tell the true stories. perception is not reality, as you mentioned.

[Oskar]

He used LBJ as a baseline stat. All stats need something for comparison to mean something. Otherwise they're just numbers. Using the highest rated player by most people in the game today as a baseline, he made a stat just as relevant as any other formula stat to evaluate players. Stats tell the true stories. perception is not reality, as you mentioned.

How are you going to put boxing out, setting screens, communicating, acting (that's a part of the game unfortunately), fouling at the right times, overall great decision making, hard work and all this stuff to stats? I have never checked it out, but Tracy probably looked like a hell of a beast during his prime in Orlando, but he definitely wasn't more valuable than the good guys that won, the ones that helped their teammates during practices and overall that way help the team improve and all that stuff. You can't make a stat for a locker room presence for example, which is very, very important and if you have played competitive team basketball, I'd assume you'd know that.

[J@3]

Oskar you're probably a matter of hours from being completely obliterated. I think you hit essentially every cliche known to man on the anti-stat argument, this will be funny to watch.

[Oznogrd]

He used LBJ as a baseline stat. All stats need something for comparison to mean something. Otherwise they're just numbers. Using the highest rated player by most people in the game today as a baseline, he made a stat just as relevant as any other formula stat to evaluate players. Stats tell the true stories. perception is not reality, as you mentioned.

How are you going to put boxing out, setting screens, communicating, acting (that's a part of the game unfortunately), fouling at the right times, overall great decision making, hard work and all this stuff to stats? I have never checked it out, but Tracy probably looked like a hell of a beast during his prime in Orlando, but he definitely wasn't more valuable than the good guys that won, the ones that helped their teammates during practices and overall that way help the team improve and all that stuff. You can't make a stat for a locker room presence for example, which is very, very important and if you have played competitive team basketball, I'd assume you'd know that.

This isnt about that stuff though. This is about performance on the floor. The WORST starters. People may have locker room presence, they may be a great coach/mentor for younger players, but that does NOT make them a good player. I've played competitive basketball and been on USA teams, i understand contributions and detractions that there arent stats for. But when talking about a performance-based theoretical question (this topic), the only objective way to figure this out is stats. Good decision making results in things like turnovers, open buckets etc.: therefore would be present and accounted for in statistics.

[Oskar]

[/quote] People may have locker room presence, they may be a great coach/mentor for younger players, but that does NOT make them a good player.[/quote]

I can't agree with that.

[Oznogrd]

A benchwarmer is a benchwarmer for a reason. You dont get minutes for being a good guy and being able to teach. You have to show performance. What planet do you live on where you play your worst players because they're good guys? Odds are you'd play like the nets...or possibly worse.