Indiana Pacers thread

If Weaver can have a Warriors thread, I can certainly have a Pacers thread.

I'm looking for a sticky Andrew!!

Couple of thoughts I have with September coming to a close, and the season approaching.

This seasons team has a real shot to do something. I still maintain the statements I made after the end of last season: This team will win it all. I am so confident in the teams chances, yet, there are still some major question marks. The worst case scenario is that Ron Artest explodes, Jermaine can't handle being the sole leader of the teams, Danny Granger is a bust, Sarunas Jasikevicius can't adapt to the NBA game, and causes more problems then anything else, Jamaal Tinsley gets injured again, and Stephen Jackson has trouble containing his intensity without Mike Brown on the sidelines to control him. That brings me to another topic. The loss of Mike Brown could turn out to be much more serious then most of us hope. Mike Brown left to become the Cavaliers head coach, and he was very crucial to the team's success. Mike Brown was Stephen Jackson's mentor and best friend. How will he do without him? I have a lot of confidence in Rick Carlisle's ability to control intense players but you never know. However, this team is more united now then ever, in fact every player on the team has been in Indy since September 17th working out at the request of Jermaine. These guys are ready for the season, everybody is in shape, Ron Artest has put on even more muscle mass, expect his rebounding numbers to go up. David Harrison has lost some weight and has promised to control his fouls. Samaki Walker has also been brought in for training camp, and I would rather have him as the 15th roster spot over a shooting guard like Jimmy Hunter who played on our summer league team. Samaki is another body who played pretty well behind Shaq.

Louisville? Goat? Anybody else? Comments?

Sorry for the ramblings, I basically just typed whatever popped into my head.

How much more muscle mass can Artest handle? He's 6'7'', FFS. Has there ever been a 6'7'', 260lbs SF before? Next time he loses his nerves, expect dismembered corpses and raped judges.

How much more muscle mass can Artest handle? He's 6'7'', FFS. Has there ever been a 6'7'', 260lbs SF before? Next time he loses his nerves, expect dismembered corpses and raped judges.

While gaining weight Ronnie has also improved his dribbling skills, and gotten faster. He got an entire year to rejuvinate his body without getting it banged up at all. He didn't waste time over the summer, he got to work right away. He's in excellent shape.

And about the nerves losing thing, he won't. Mark my words, Ron will not even got useless techs anymore. The only techs he'll get will be part of the game. I think he's had his wakeup call.

Since your a pacers fan you should follow this dynasty:
http://www.nbaliveforums.com/ftopic28627.php

And use this sig:

or even this one, made by the one and only Mikki.

Gotta love the ads!

This has been brought to you in part by-

The NCAA

Pepsi Cola

And the United Negro League

[/quote]

who's more valuable to the team: artest or JO?

I'm actually going to be following the Pacers a little bit closer now this season because of you Indy. Your homer-like take on the team has really gotten under my skin at times, but I actually think Indiana's the sleeper team to watch out for this season.

Indiana's gonna be a good team, that's for sure. I'm sure a lot of people have taken notice of that, but they're still holding their breath and wait to see what happens early in the season. Artest and JO are gonna be forces, and this will be a solid team. I'm looking forward to seeing them play, but there's no saying what will happen when it comes to injuries and... suspensions.

I don't think Indy's the sleeper team of the season - they should be the favorite to win the East, with Detroit very close behind (of course, if Miami gets some chemistry going, they might be the scariest of them all, but I doubt it). But it's gonna be really tough for them to even win their own division w/ Detroit and the Cavs (I think they might even be the third best team in the East) there. It'll probably come down to the last few games, but they have the depth to take it.

But in the playoffs, how do you think JON/Foster/Harrison/Walker will be able to handle the Wallaces/DD/McDyess/Maxiell (this kid's got potential)/Milicic (you know he's gonna have a breakout year) or Shaq/Haslem/Zo/Fatione/Simien/Doleac? I know JON was MVP-like when he came back last season, but he's only one person and has been very injury-prone the last two postseasons. They can get through with their depth, though, but they're still gonna have to add another big man or two during the season. Kwame Brown would've been helpful...

who's more valuable to the team: artest or JO?

Jermaine O'neal without question. Without O'neal, this team wouldnt make the playoffs. Artest is still needed, but not on the level of Jermaine.

I'd take Jermaine over Garnett if I had a choice.

Zee, the pacers do have depth up front. Jermaine Oneal is unstopable in the post. Foster is a solid rebounder and defender. Harrison is a big body who will be servicable. And dont forget Jonathon Bender. If he gets his Jumpshot going, he will be literally unguardable alongside jermaine.

Also Artest is like having another big in the game. He plays bigger than 95% of the 7 footers in the nba.

And Jermaine is injury prone? Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard. He has shoulder reconstruction and plays with it and now he is injury prone, yet shaq and mcdyess arent? Please.

The Pacers are my pick to get to the finals. They have the best balance of any team in the east, and if tinsley shows any bit of consistancy, they will be hard to beat in the finals.

And Jermaine is injury prone? Thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard. He has shoulder reconstruction and plays with it and now he is injury prone, yet shaq and mcdyess arent? Please.

Very true. Its not like he's had a lot injuries in different spots, its just been that shoulder.

Artest and Jermaine are equally important if the Pacers want to win it all. I'll write more about that later, I'm too lazy right now.

I'd take Jermaine over Garnett if I had a choice.

lol...

I'd take Jermaine over Garnett if I had a choice.

lol...

Uh oh... here comes Riot...

Jermaine O'neal without question. Without O'neal, this team wouldnt make the playoffs. Artest is still needed, but not on the level of Jermaine.

I'd take Jermaine over Garnett if I had a choice.

it's closer then you think. JO is 2yrs now removed from that MVP type season he had. since then he did have the shoulder issue and is catching flak for a poor fg%, not going into the post enough, being a poor passer out of double teams, and questionable leadership skills

now 2 of those 4 could be attributed to the shoulder, though i should put it out there JO shot 43% in 03-04

and then there was artest, who 2 years ago came back early from the thumb surgery and carried the team down the strecth. then this past season, came out of the gate like a gangsta: 24pts, 50fg%, 92ft%, 6rebs, 3apg.. most of those career highs. plus he was the one who normally defended the opponents best scorer. now of course, people will be knock him for his awkward offense or his attitude but he gets the job done if no one's throwing a cup of beer at him

i side with riot on the KG vs JO thing. there's KG and TD as the best of the best PF's. then there's everybody else. i think you could put JO on the 2nd tier of best PF's

Last edited by air gordon on Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'd take Jermaine over Garnett if I had a choice.

lol...

Uh oh... here comes Riot...

Well, I had to say something. Garnett is a future hall of famer and Jermaine...well, he isn't.

Interesting.. Jermaine is only one season removed from that mvp type season he had in 2004. His leadership skills, in my opinion, are superior to KG's. He is better in the post, not as good as kg in terms of face up shooting but is effective in that area, a better on the ball defender of big men and i'd rank them equal in terms of rebounding.

The thing that seperates them is O'neals ability (much like duncans) to give him teamates space and opportunities to score. If Artest, Jackson and tinsley are playing well, he defers to them and picks and chooses his spots alot better. Garnett does this to a point, but when his teamates struggle, Jermaine knows when and how to take over and carry a team offensively. Garnett really doesnt. Plus Jermaine plays better when hurt. Look at last season when he was playing with almost one arm, and yet he was still amongst the very elite of big men.

As for Ron Artest, he is valuable to the pacers. But not as valuable as Jermaine Oneal. Without Jermaine.. I doubt the pacers would make the playoffs. The team defense (even with artest) would be shot, as would their scoring (who would carry the burden? Artest and jax are great complimentary scorers, but cant take the role of being the goto guy).

And to say Jermaine isnt a furture hall of famer is just stupid. He still has 6 or 7 more seasons. So far Garnett has had the better career. But Eddie Jones has had a better career than Dwayne Wade, and who would you rather on your team now?

Interesting.. Jermaine is only one season removed from that mvp type season he had in 2004.

Yes, and Garnett is only one season removed from hsi MVP season he had in 2004...

His leadership skills, in my opinion, are superior to KG's.

I disagree. Garnett is a very strong leader. He is vocal in practice, he plays hard every day and he expects the best out of everyone. He leads by example and by communication. And the fact that he has been in the playoffs for 8 straight years besides last says that his leadership is valued.

He is better in the post

Garnett's post game is very underrated. JO spends a lot of time outside the key just as much as Garnett. Garnett has the best footwork in the league. That is a quote from many NBA players.

not as good as kg in terms of face up shooting but is effective in that area, a better on the ball defender of big men and i'd rank them equal in terms of rebounding.

Garnett is one of the best defensive players in the league. You try to shoot over those long arms and amazing athleticsm. You try to get passed him with that athleticism and long wing-span. And Garnett is a great help defender.

As for being equal in rebounding, that is a joke. Garnett is one of the best defensive rebounders of all time. Offensively, Garnett is improving because he is playing more towards the basket. Flip's system had Garnett playing away from the basket so his offensive rebound oppertunties were limited.

The thing that seperates them is O'neals ability (much like duncans) to give him teamates space and opportunities to score. If Artest, Jackson and tinsley are playing well, he defers to them and picks and chooses his spots alot better. Garnett does this to a point, but when his teamates struggle, Jermaine knows when and how to take over and carry a team offensively. Garnett really doesnt.

Garnett doesn't do that? Garnett gets doubled and tripled teamed everytime he gets the ball. He is also one of the most unselfish players int he league. He gives his teammates space and he doesn't complain about it, either. As for taking over a game, Garnett knows how to do that too. But when you have to spend your energy on both sides of the floor for 42 minutes a game it wears you down.

Plus Jermaine plays better when hurt. Look at last season when he was playing with almost one arm, and yet he was still amongst the very elite of big men.

Are you forgetting that Garnett played all last year on a horrible knee? A knee that the trainers said he shouldn't even be playing on? And yet he still almost single-handedly carried the team into the post season on one knee?

Garnett doesn't play well when hurt? When is the last time Garnett has missed a game? Like 4-5 years ago. Do you think he just doesn't get hurt? No. He sprains an ankle and he doesn't miss a second. He walks it off and plays through it and he still dominates.

Yes, and Garnett is only one season removed from hsi MVP season he had in 2004...

That was never denied. I pointed that out becuause Nick (air gordon) sai he was 2 seasons removed...

I disagree. Garnett is a very strong leader. He is vocal in practice, he plays hard every day and he expects the best out of everyone. He leads by example and by communication. And the fact that he has been in the playoffs for 8 straight years besides last says that his leadership is valued.

Jermaine has been in the playoffs every season he has been in the league. Now I understand he was a merely a bench player when he was a blazer, but since being a pacer, he has been their MVP.

As for KG being a good leader/teamate, who was that rookie he punched in the face? That was in the off season of the season they nearly made the finals.. then last season, they dont even make the playoffs. How easily these things are forgotton. I guess its easier to blame spree for the past season though

And somtimes, being in the playoffs doesnt make you a leader. Think back to Joe Dumars in the period after the bad boys and before grant hill arived. He was the epitme of leadership in that period.

I look to how stars make thier teamates better. Jermaine has assisted Ron Artest to being an all star. He has helped the development of tinsley. He has made Jeff Foster look servicable, and allowed reggie the space still be effective up until his final game.

Garnett helped Chauncey Billups turn his game around, but apart from that, I cant think of any other players he made better.

Garnett's post game is very underrated. JO spends a lot of time outside the key just as much as Garnett. Garnett has the best footwork in the league. That is a quote from many NBA players.

No he doesnt. Jermaine recieves the ball in similar spots to where Garnet does, but he backs his way down into the post. KG usually faces up and rises up for that jumpshot.
Jermaine, along with timmy and shaq, are the best post players in the nba.

Garnett is one of the best defensive players in the league. You try to shoot over those long arms and amazing athleticsm. You try to get passed him with that athleticism and long wing-span. And Garnett is a great help defender.

Thats why I said he is a better defender of big men. KG is a more versatile defender, he can guard smaller players. But he isnt physical enough to bang with other bigs. He isnt as good as jermaine is on help. Im not saying Garnet is bad, Im just saying he isnt as good as jermaine in those aspects.

As for being equal in rebounding, that is a joke. Garnett is one of the best defensive rebounders of all time. Offensively, Garnett is improving because he is playing more towards the basket. Flip's system had Garnett playing away from the basket so his offensive rebound oppertunties were limited.

Defensive rebounding numbers can be decieving. Jermaine has had rebounding studs in Jeff Foster and Dale Davis alongside him for most of his tenure in indiana. This has effected his rebounding numbers. They are about the same when it comes to rebounding when you take that into account.

Garnett doesn't do that? Garnett gets doubled and tripled teamed everytime he gets the ball. He is also one of the most unselfish players int he league. He gives his teammates space and he doesn't complain about it, either. As for taking over a game, Garnett knows how to do that too. But when you have to spend your energy on both sides of the floor for 42 minutes a game it wears you down.

I've seen minnesota go into a zone a fair bit over the years, so KG isnt always guarding the best player. There has been plenty of times when KG has gone into Karl Malone mode and not realised his teams peril and sunk with them. He is a great player, but Jermaine is better at comming up with a big shot or getting to the line when needed.

Thats where the difference lies.

Are you forgetting that Garnett played all last year on a horrible knee? A knee that the trainers said he shouldn't even be playing on? And yet he still almost single-handedly carried the team into the post season on one knee?

Jermaine played with one arm almost. And he didnt nearly single handedly carry his team to the playoffs, he took them to a game 7 victory on the road (in boston of all places) and then a 2-1 series lead against the defending champs.
Nearly making the playoffs isnt good enough. Kobe and Lebron nearly single handedly took their teams to the playoffs too.

The game isnt strictly about stats. Leadership, winning and unselfishness has to be taken into account as well.

Yo Indy,

what are your thoughts on JJ being traded?

and also, why do you think Danny Granger will bust? Who should they of taken?

I think he meant that would be the worst case scenario.

oh, im on the trolley now, thanks jae.

Right now I think the title's up for grabs as far as the elite teams in the league are concerned. If Indiana isn't the favourite to come out of the East or maybe even win it all, they have to be one of the favourites. They've done an excellent job with their transition phase, moving effortless from one era to the next without falling too far. It's a blueprint other teams should be using.

Jermaine has been in the playoffs every season he has been in the league. Now I understand he was a merely a bench player when he was a blazer, but since being a pacer, he has been their MVP.

That's great, but he has only played 30mpg or more for five seasons (since he got in Indiana). That's like saying Darko is great because he won a championship ring. Garnett has led his team, which wasn't very talented besides 2003-2004, to the playoffs 8 out of his 10 years. And last year, he was one game out of the post season again.

As for KG being a good leader/teamate, who was that rookie he punched in the face? That was in the off season of the season they nearly made the finals.. then last season, they dont even make the playoffs. How easily these things are forgotton. I guess its easier to blame spree for the past season though

Michael Jordan punched Steve Kerr in the face, I suppose he isn't a good leader? Jermaine O'Neal got in a brawl with fans in Detroit, I suppose he isn't a good leader? Don't bring up something like that and say he is a bad teammate or leader. Rickert wasn't even going to make the team, and probably wouldn't have even gotten invited to training camp.

As for who to blame last year, I blame everyone. It's a team game besides a select few (Garnett, Hassell, Madsen, Carter) nobody played with the effort to win. It was all about the individuals and there was no team. Not to mention the team just wasn't very talented.

And somtimes, being in the playoffs doesnt make you a leader. Think back to Joe Dumars in the period after the bad boys and before grant hill arived. He was the epitme of leadership in that period.

It's not just the fact that he has been to the playoffs, it's the fact that he has single-handedly lead his team to the post season even when there were more talented teams there. Before Garnett got drafted, the Wolves were lucky to win 30 games. Then in his 2nd season a 19 year old kid LEADS the team to it's first ever post season birth. He never looked back until this year.

I look to how stars make thier teamates better. Jermaine has assisted Ron Artest to being an all star. He has helped the development of tinsley. He has made Jeff Foster look servicable, and allowed reggie the space still be effective up until his final game.

Jermaine O'Neal didn't "allow Reggie the space to still be effective". That's bullshit and you know it. Reggie made his own space by running of multiple screens and keeping himself in top shape.

Garnett helped Chauncey Billups turn his game around, but apart from that, I cant think of any other players he made better.

Wally Szczerbiak? He was an All-Star in 2001. Sam Cassell? Sure, Cassell was always a solid player but he was never an all-star until he came to Minnesota. And it's not like Cassell got "better". He was 34 years old, his skills were declining. Rasho Nesterovic? Garnett got Rasho that big contract from the Spurs. He made Rasho look productive, that's something Tim Duncan can't even do. Trenton Hassell? He got Hassell that big contract and has put Hassell's name on the map. Troy Hudson?

Or how about in 2002-2003? Wally Szczerbiak missed over 30 games that year and the team still got a top 4 seed. Can you please explain to me how a team with the starting line-up of Hudson-Anthony Peeler-Kendall Gill-KG-Rasho gets a #4 seed in the Western Conference? I rest my case.

No he doesnt. Jermaine recieves the ball in similar spots to where Garnet does, but he backs his way down into the post. KG usually faces up and rises up for that jumpshot.
Jermaine, along with timmy and shaq, are the best post players in the nba.

Did you watch Garnett this year at all? He was in the post about 3 or 4 times more than he usually was. He has gotten bigger and stronger, but he has always had the moves. Like I said, he has the best footwork in the league.

Thats why I said he is a better defender of big men. KG is a more versatile defender, he can guard smaller players. But he isnt physical enough to bang with other bigs. He isnt as good as jermaine is on help. Im not saying Garnet is bad, Im just saying he isnt as good as jermaine in those aspects.

I just flat out disagree.

Defensive rebounding numbers can be decieving. Jermaine has had rebounding studs in Jeff Foster and Dale Davis alongside him for most of his tenure in indiana. This has effected his rebounding numbers. They are about the same when it comes to rebounding when you take that into account.

If Jermaine is so good, why can't get the rebounds over those guys? Are you saying Dale Davis and Jeff Foster are better rebounders than Jermaine "rebounding warrior" O'Neal? Garnett gets rebounds because when a shot is in the air he goes for it. That ball is his. There is nobody else in the league who does it like Garnett.

I've seen minnesota go into a zone a fair bit over the years, so KG isnt always guarding the best player.

Ever think that Flip Saunders didn't want Garnett getting into foul trouble because the team needs him? Hell, Tim Duncan doesn't guard the best offensive player either. Neither does Kobe Bryant. Neither does Lebron James. But at the end of the game if Garnett isn't in foul trouble he'll be put on the best offensive player out there.

There has been plenty of times when KG has gone into Karl Malone mode and not realised his teams peril and sunk with them. He is a great player, but Jermaine is better at comming up with a big shot or getting to the line when needed.

Garnett is clutch. I don't care what other people say about it. Garnett is clutch. I don't have to point out game winning baskets to do it either (Kings, Clippers, Kings, Pistons) but it's not just the shots. He'll get a key rebound or a key steal. He'll get a key block. He'll get double teamed and he'll kick it out to an open teammate for the wide open J. Garnett believes if he is being triple teamed that he shouldn't force the shot, but in the clutch he often takes over. So I don't know what you are talking about there. But I do agree with one thing, Garnett needs to get to the line more often.

Jermaine played with one arm almost. And he didnt nearly single handedly carry his team to the playoffs, he took them to a game 7 victory on the road (in boston of all places) and then a 2-1 series lead against the defending champs.
Nearly making the playoffs isnt good enough. Kobe and Lebron nearly single handedly took their teams to the playoffs too.

You fail to mention that Jermaine O'Neal's team record was the EXACT SAME RECORD as the Timberwolves' but in a worse conference. Not to mention, I didn't know you could "lead your team to the playoffs" when you barely played in half of the teams games. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Rick Carlise carried that team into the post season, not Jermaine O'Neal.

The game isnt strictly about stats. Leadership, winning and unselfishness has to be taken into account as well.

Yes, and Garnett is a great leader, he has been to the post season 8 of his 10 years and is one of the most unselfish players in the league.

I don't have time to respond to all of that right now, but when I get home from works, I'm licking my lips to jump on some of the posts.