The age old Question: LeBron vs Kobe.

[imefimef]

81.

I also enjoy writing out random numbers.
30.
7.
7.
What these number have to do with this argument? Who knows.

[imefimef]

This is from Count Dan Le Batard of the Miami Herald

This make me the jerk, of course. Who doesn’t believe in the value of hard work? How can anyone who loves sports and loves champions and loves America possibly find anything wrong with a famous multimillionaire caring so much about his craft, still, after all these years, that he would spend an extra 90 minutes after a loss shooting in the same arena where he had just lost?
Only a jerk would point that he didn’t do this after losing at Cleveland or Memphis or any of the other times there were a lot fewer cameras around. Only a jerk would point that, if he cared to sculpt in private, there was another gym in this same arena where the myth-makers aren’t allowed that he could have used to be all alone with just his pain and work ethic. Only a jerk would suggest that maybe Bryant did this because of how much media was around for this game — and, because his actual work during the game didn’t produce the desired narrative, he somehow figured out a way to get it 90 minutes after both teams had gone home.
Not even Michael Jordan, Bryant’s patron saint, pulled that one off in his career — somehow still winning immediately after losing.

And yes 8-21 is bad but for a volume shooter not horrible, Kobe has had worse shooting nights but did he do that? NO.
Propaganda at it's best.

[hova-]

Another thing, if Kobe is so dedicated to his craft and is doing work after work, why hasn't he ever had a 38% for 3s? So obviously James Jones is more dedicated when it comes to 3s, and so is Kyle Korver, and Jason Kapono, and Peja Stojahovic(idk how to spell his name, deal with it). Why hasn't he shot 90% for freethrows? Obviously Billups, Nash, Mo Williams, Kevin Durant are more dedicated too, and why hasn't he shot 50% for fg in a season? Obviously LeBron is more dedicated than he is.

Yeah, some of these guys may be more dedicated to the niche they found for themselves, but then you could rather ask "Does Peja do anything else than shooting 3s?", "Can Chauncey Billups run post up plays?", "Does Mo Williams ever drive to the hoop?".

It's a mixture that makes a player unique, the only one you named in this list is Kevin Durant who can also score in many different ways.

If LeBron never wins a ring he will be named next to guys like Charley Barkley, Pat Ewing, Karl Malone, who never won a ring but were obviously great players. It will be even harder for him because he may have several MVP awards when he retires.

If he manages to win like 2-3 rings people will say he was just as good or even better than Kobe. Right now, nobody will say that and you know why?

- LeBron isn't popular, the decision killed his image (which wasn't the best before)
- LeBron simply has no ring. No one ask who is better, Dirk or Kobe? You know why no one asks: because Dirk has no rings on his fingers, same goes for LeQueen
- LeBron is an athletic monster, his shot is "okay", his court vision and passing is superb. Still, he has flaws in his game, everyone has. His mid range shot is not good and he has no post game. Guys criticize Dwight Howard for his post game, so why not criticize LBJ?

Just get it, your fanboy love isn't as popular as he has been in recent years and also isn't successful enough. Sry to hurt your feelings.

This is from Count Dan Le Batard of the Miami Herald

This make me the jerk, of course. Who doesn’t believe in the value of hard work? How can anyone who loves sports and loves champions and loves America possibly find anything wrong with a famous multimillionaire caring so much about his craft, still, after all these years, that he would spend an extra 90 minutes after a loss shooting in the same arena where he had just lost?
Only a jerk would point that he didn’t do this after losing at Cleveland or Memphis or any of the other times there were a lot fewer cameras around. Only a jerk would point that, if he cared to sculpt in private, there was another gym in this same arena where the myth-makers aren’t allowed that he could have used to be all alone with just his pain and work ethic. Only a jerk would suggest that maybe Bryant did this because of how much media was around for this game — and, because his actual work during the game didn’t produce the desired narrative, he somehow figured out a way to get it 90 minutes after both teams had gone home.
Not even Michael Jordan, Bryant’s patron saint, pulled that one off in his career — somehow still winning immediately after losing.

And yes 8-21 is bad but for a volume shooter not horrible, Kobe has had worse shooting nights but did he do that? NO.
Propaganda at it's best.

Yeah, what's better? Some work ethic propaganda or a show on ESPN to announce that you're gonna take your talents to south beach?

[imefimef]

Yeah, what's better? Some work ethic propaganda or a show on ESPN to announce that you're gonna take your talents to south beach?

As much as I'm a fan of LeBron i'm not a brainwashed dummy who agrees with everything he does, i for one did not want him to go to Miami (i pretty much fore-shadowed this whole who will have the ball question, thought Chi but too big a shoe to fill, so me being from NY, Knicks were my 1st choice but i woulda liked it if he stayed with the Cavs), so the decision itself along with the stupid hour long show are not favorites of mine. I do think that whole "Boys and Girls club" premise was bs and he did it for the attention (IGNORE THE FOLLOWING: and was just another tool in the hands of the powers that be (THEY)). I think he also did it for twitter followers (because he didn't have one before and that would be the perfect time to have one).

Also that whole "Nobody should wear 23 anymore" thing was also part of the plan, he knew he was going to a new team anyways and was going to start a new chapter in his career so why not ditch his former moniker and get a new number(Kinda like Melo). So yeah, i think he knew he was going to Mia all along with Chris Bosh and he shouldn't have dragged Cleavland along for the ride BUT the topic he should have stayed and he's not loyal for leaving is stupid.


EDIT: Think about it like this, Paul Pierce with little supporting cast, the Celtics got him Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen and posey. Kobe got Paul Gasol, Ron Artest, Matt Barnes (a starter on orlando), Dwight got Vince Carter, got Hedo back, Gilbert Arenas, Jason RIchardson. Rose got Carlos Boozer, even Amare in a short while got Carmelo and Dwade got LeBron and Chris Bosh. Who did the cavs get LeBron? Mo Williams, Antwan(pretty good player tho, unfortunately was a zero factor in his stint) and a 38 yr old Shaq.

Last edited by imefimef on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Patr1ck]

Hova makes a good point. People view Kobe as better because he has established success. LeBron has not had the same level of success. Will he? I'm absolutely sure he will. He will turn 27 next season. He is right in his prime and has a team that has shown that it can win a championship. The winning streak and the tough losses are just going to make them better in the long run. People can't really hate LeBron, only the decision(s) he has made. When his decision making improves you will see him crying with confetti pouring down holding the nba championship trophy.

[imefimef]

Yeah, some of these guys may be more dedicated to the niche they found for themselves, but then you could rather ask "Does Peja do anything else than shooting 3s?", "Can Chauncey Billups run post up plays?", "Does Mo Williams ever drive to the hoop?".

It's a mixture that makes a player unique, the only one you named in this list is Kevin Durant who can also score in many different ways.

If he manages to win like 2-3 rings people will say he was just as good or even better than Kobe. Right now, nobody will say that and you know why?

- LeBron isn't popular, the decision killed his image (which wasn't the best before)
- LeBron simply has no ring. No one ask who is better, Dirk or Kobe? You know why no one asks: because Dirk has no rings on his fingers, same goes for LeQueen
- LeBron is an athletic monster, his shot is "okay", his court vision and passing is superb. Still, he has flaws in his game, everyone has. His mid range shot is not good and he has no post game. Guys criticize Dwight Howard for his post game, so why not criticize LBJ?

Just get it, your fanboy love isn't as popular as he has been in recent years and also isn't successful enough. Sry to hurt your feelings.

Ok you do realize scoring is just one aspect of basketball right? Kobe overall is a better scorer than LeBron, agreed, but there are other aspects and you say it's the mixture that makes players unique so how about someone who is a high scorer, more efficient than Kobe, a better rebounder, a better play maker, a better shot blocker and gets more steals? A perfect analogy for this is when Kobe scored 61 at the Garden, he got 61 points, 3 assists, no rebounds or steals and a block. LeBron on the other hand got 52 Pts, 9 Reb, 11 Ast, 2 Blk. Sure Kobe scored more, but the other things LeBron did more than makes up for it. And you said something about LeBron can't post up? haha yeah right you must be blind, he CAN just doesn't do it often enough to be remembered by it, plus you said Dwight is criticized for not having a post game why not LeBron? Well for starters LeBron is 6'8'' and Dwight is 7 fucking feet tall (I know he says 6'11' but i say bullshit).

Second LeBron is a small forward and Dwight is a fucking center. Centers are supposed to fucking post up, what a stupid ass question that is. Again back to the ring thing, HOW DO YOU NOT GET IT????? That's something you can't argue about till the end of their careers dammit, if you were to compared Jordan on just 7 completed seasons, he'd have just one ring to talk about, so that means he isn't as good as Kobe? Yeesh, i don't understand how you don't get it. Paul Pierce has a ring and MVP for the ring, so you're telling me he is better than LeBron? Manu has multiple rings and he was definitely a big contributor so he's better than LeBron? Shit DJ Mgbenga has more rings than LeBron, so what does that say? Dumbass is a word that comes to mind.

LeBron isn't popular???????. So. The. Fuck. What??? I never pick popularity over substance because i am not a brain washed idiot. I don't need people to think for me, i can do that just fine thank you. You on the other hand? ehh that's questionable.

BTW If LeBron's shot is "OKAY" and he is shooting a higher percentage for 3s than Kobe this season and last, what does that make Kobe's shot? below "OKAY"?
EDIT: Seriously tho i promise you my feelings have nothing to do with my rants, Kobe doesn't give you any money or any anything and neither does LeBron so you not liking him doesn't hurt my feelings in anyway, what actually pisses me off is when people mention irrelevant things and use horrible deductive reasoning skills to come up with stupid statements. When people blatantly ignore facts and stick to preconceived notions it just freaking pisses me off. In summary, stupid people/stupid shit hurts my feelings.

Last edited by imefimef on Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Lamrock]

Your points would be far easier to take seriously if you used paragraphs and didn't post in caps and with a myriad of punctuation marks. I disagree with hova-'s post but at least it was readable.

[imefimef]

That's not to say anybody who doesn't agree with me is stupid, no far from it. We all have different things in our heads and think differently but in an argument such as this, the criteria is inexplicably spelled out and i mention somethings over and over again get people still ignore them.

Hova makes a good point. People view Kobe as better because he has established success. LeBron has not had the same level of success. Will he? I'm absolutely sure he will. He will turn 27 next season. He is right in his prime and has a team that has shown that it can win a championship. The winning streak and the tough losses are just going to make them better in the long run. People can't really hate LeBron, only the decision(s) he has made. When his decision making improves you will see him crying with confetti pouring down holding the nba championship trophy.

Yes he does, but we can't predict the future we can only speak of now. Will he win at least one championship? Likely yes but even if he does at the end of the season people will still say but Kobe has 5 rings, but he couldn't win without Wade(Because we all see Kobe and Micheal and Paul Pierce and Tim Duncan won it by themselves). So the rings are irrelevant till the end of their careers. And i originally said

The question is: WHO IS THE CURRENT BEST BASKETBALL PLAYER (FOR THE LAST 3 SEASONS)?
I put last 3 seasons to be definite as regards to periods of time, and my question is not about legacy, i think it's stupendous how people try to compare the legacy of a 33 yr old to the legacy of a 26 yr old. Completely assinie if you ask me.

Last edited by imefimef on Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

[imefimef]

Your points would be far easier to take seriously if you used paragraphs and didn't post in caps and with a myriad of punctuation marks. I disagree with hova-'s post but at least it was readable.

Yes but I am an emotional being and it's far more difficult to express feelings thru just text so there are some certain parts i want the reader to focus on. SERIOUSLY WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU??------ah i bet the voice in your head yelled it pretty loud. Like Ohh emm Gee like seriously, like you're like so dumb------and i bet the voice in your head sounded blonde.
The myriad of punctuation marks would be the commas i guess, and that's just to slow down the reader and to know where to pause without using an unholy about of these:"." Plus it's too late to add the periods. (pun intended.)
Like i said i'm drunk most of the times i write this so end up not indenting but i will take that into consideration(but to be fair i at first did try to use tab to indent but it didn't work so i didn't bother but like you see in this response, i'll just press the spacebar 4 times. Thank you for the honest feedback.
EDIT: I guess it's not allowing me to indent so a new line will have to do.

[imefimef]

TRIVIA TIME!!!

For 200 points, who can guess where this conversation is from?

"But you are still under contract with them, are you saying on this show, are you saying right here that you want to be traded? "
"Yeah I would like to be traded yeah."
"There's no if ands or buts about it?...are you saying emphatically regardless of what they've done you want out of Los Angeles?"
"Yes i would like to be traded."

[x-uNdErRaTeD-z]

I had to fuckin register to the site just to respond to this nonsense(been following for 3 years now so fuck it).
Simple as this:
We know you love LeBron James and that he's the best player in the history of basketball. There! Happy?
You really need to calm down because you literally are embrassing yourself and you're attacking people because they aren't responding to your nonsense. Want a a good debate? Go talk to Benji or Shadowgrin and they'll f you up with facts. Please stop with this craziness because nobody is buying your opinion except yourself. Now leave, you troll.

[x-uNdErRaTeD-z]

Sorry for double post but let me give you one agruement, Mr.imefimef.

What if you take away LeBron's athleticism away for one season, right? How would his game style be like without perfecting any "skills" throughout his career? Meanwhile, Kobe Bryant has already lost half of his speed and quickness and still manages to score and play at high level while maintaining at a skillfull level...

LeBron's game is way too dependent on athleticism rather than pure "skill". If you ask me what "skill" is in basketball, "skill" are the basic fundamentals of shooting, dribbling, post-moves, mid-range shot/pull-up jumper, finishing ability, etc..and it's how well you perform those that determine your skill in each aspect of the game. Kobe has LITERALLY perfected the fundamentals and as well as Tim Duncan. To able to those things without much athleticism is pretty legendary to me and considering the fact that Kobe doesn't have a huge wingspan like LeBron or even a high vertical.

Now LeBron in terms of stats and stuff, he is and was the point-guard, bigman, and scorer for both Cleveland and currently now in Miami. I guess I can see how he gets those stats and plus the man is a stat stuffer because I remember during that Knicks game that LeBron was asking about how many rebounds he had on ESPN and how close he was to a triple double....nuff' said.

LeBron's jumper is getting better but it's not at the level it's supposed to be. His driving is based on entirely on his speed and his "crab-dribble". He DOESN'T go to the post at all and I know you're going to flame me but listen to this: When you have a 6"8" frame and 250lb body...I guess you can dominate anyone in the post right? nuff' said. Plus, his attitude will NOT get him no where in his career if he continues in that manner.

Kobe has mastered the pull-jumper, post-game, savyness, and finishing ability(without the use of "freakish athleticism) as a guard...Most guards do not change their game dramatically like Mr.Bryant has which is one thing Michael did and the other greats. I really doubt that once LeBron hits his 30's that he can get any of these skills mastered because he has always relied on, once again, athleticism rather than the fundamentals throughoutn his career.

Kobe has a stacked team, which also makes up for those "stupid stats such as rebounds, assists, and etc...Plus in the offense he's in, the triangle, you can not be a ball dominant player like LeBron becuase the system is made for passing/ back-door cuts, post ups....Kobe fits in the system because he makes the defense focus on him and he scores when relied on. I'm pretty sure that if you put Kobe in LeBron's situation, he WILL get inflated stats like in Cleveland.

Sorry for long post but that's my view on this topic and I do not look at stats, I look at the way the game of basketball is played between both players.

[hova-]

Why do you think LBJ's shot is better than Kobe's?

You only come up with the three point shooting argument:

Kobe: 1.4 / 4.2 = .322%
LBJ: 1.2 / 3.6 = .338%

LBJ seems better, only slightly, but better. I give you that. But how about the mid-range game, which determines most of how good of a shooter someone is.

Kobe: .840% of his shots are jumpshots - his effective FG% of these shots is .469%
LBJ: .700% of his shots are jumpshots - his effective FG% of these shots is .457%

Seeing it this way, Kobe's better, taking more Js and hitting them more effectively.

Let's go to something important - Clutch play. (4th quarter or OT - 5 minutes or less on the clock)

Kobe: .860% of his shots are jumpshots - his effective FG% of these shots is .406%
LBJ: .560% of his shots are jumpshots - his effective FG% of these shots is .365%

Huge win for Kobe if you ask me. Both tend to isolate on this plays more often than during the normal game (only .180% and .200% assisted jumpshots compared to .310% and .360%), and it looks like Kobe's better in creating his own jumpshot and seems more valuable in the crunchtime.

Now you may wanna argue "But LeBron's unstoppable and drives to the hoop way better than Kobe at the end of the game". Here you go.

Kobe: .140% of his shots are close shots - his effective FG% of these shots is .727%
LBJ: .360% of his shots are close shots - his effective FG% of these shots is .583%

So actually, who do you wanna give the ball in the clutch? Kobe or LBJ? Their freethrow numbers are almost the same and - oh btw - Kobe's assist numbers are better then LeBron's in the clutch - less turnovers (ball handling rating is twice as good as LBJ's) and more ap48m.

LeBron has better stats in almost every category when it comes to "per game" etc. He is better in many facettes of the game. But he isn't a better scorer and he does not help his team more than Bryant does, a look at the clutch stats underlines that.

[imefimef]

Why do you think LBJ's shot is better than Kobe's?
...But he isn't a better scorer and he does not help his team more than Bryant does, a look at the clutch stats underlines that.

Learn how to read man

Ok you do realize scoring is just one aspect of basketball right? Kobe overall is a better scorer than LeBron, agreed, but there are other aspects and you say it's the mixture that makes players unique so how about someone who is a high scorer, more efficient than Kobe, a better rebounder, a better play maker, a better shot blocker and gets more steals?

The point is not that LeBron is a better shooter(I think Kobe has a better jumpshot, period.) but that LeBron is a good shooter. Not great, not bad, but good. As is Kobe. Kobe has never shot higher than 36% in his career and that was once or twice if i'm not mistaken. LeBron has been shooting 33-34% for a while now which isn't great, or bad, just good.

Seriously man.
Dude there is no way Kobe helps his team more than LeBron, your telling me LeBron gives his team 25, 7 and 7 while Kobe is 25, 5 and 5 with LeBron being more efficient? And it has been like this their whole careers too.
And LeBron has hit more game winners than Kobe since he came in 03 till about 09 and he has been more efficient.

And as far as being clutch please i beg thee please go to these awesome websites that contains factual evidence not flattering words like "Killer instinct":

Since 03-09 LeBron hit more game winners than Kobe.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/445288-kobe-bryant-the-man-the-myth-the-legend/page/4
FACT!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/columns/story?columnist=haberstroh_tom&page=KobeLeBronclutch-101222
FACT!



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

and this is for 09-10, so pretty much LeBron's whole career as far as being clutch goes.
Dude please read before you post.

[imefimef]

I had to fuckin register to the site just to respond to this nonsense(been following for 3 years now so fuck it).
Simple as this:
We know you love LeBron James and that he's the best player in the history of basketball. There! Happy?
You really need to calm down because you literally are embrassing yourself and you're attacking people because they aren't responding to your nonsense. Want a a good debate? Go talk to Benji or Shadowgrin and they'll f you up with facts. Please stop with this craziness because nobody is buying your opinion except yourself. Now leave, you troll.

Well this is a post so anybody with something to say can say it, i'm sure Benji or Shadowgrin are not the only members with functioning brains so why would i do that? I don't love LeBron James, that's gay and ofcourse he's not the best player in the history of the NBA(not yet HAHAHA jk)

i don't see anybody surpassing MJ but you never know if LeBron messes around and averages a triple-double in a season

And the shock there is to show how un-impossible i find that. My posts in the have your NBA question answered shows how much i doubt it will ever happen.
And I'm going to take a wild guess and say you are Charlie Sheen? What are you a warlock or something?

[imefimef]

What a stupid stupid thing to say, waht if you took away LeBron's atheletism?? What if you took away Kobe's athleticism when he was younger? What if you took away Jordan's athleticism when he was younger? You don't get that when these type of players start in the NBA their athleticism is what they rely on because they are young and agile but when they get older they develop more of a jumpshooting game to use less energy. You seem to forget LeBron is 26 yrs old and the skill and basketball I.Q Kobe has comes with time. Same with Jordan.

When they started they came out dunking on everybody because they could but later slowed down to the mid-range game because they couldn't. DUH(get it? because you're Charlie Sheen lol).


And i remember i was in a different thread and i posted that Kobe is the best scorer in the NBA followed by the likes of Paul Pierce and Melo as opposed to Durant because of the skill level so you don't have to explain that to me.

You say LeBron was the point gaurd? No he was the point foward and not everybody could do that. Doesn't that count for something if one man can play positions from 1-4 and still be successful at each? Do you know how much work it is to be responsible for leading the scoring of yourself, and for your teammates?
I'll brb, i'm going to a class and i will address the rest of your issues

[x-uNdErRaTeD-z]

Seriously man.
Dude there is no way Kobe helps his team more than LeBron, your telling me LeBron gives his team 25, 7 and 7 while Kobe is 25, 5 and 5 with LeBron being more efficient? And it has been like this their whole careers too.
And LeBron has hit more game winners than Kobe since he came in 03 till about 09 and he has been more efficient.

Sir? Have you ever played the game of basketball before? Do you not see that those 2 extra assists and rebounds, ala 7 and 7, come from either Fisher or Pau Gasol? Kobe can NOT get those inflated stats on a system like the TRIANGLE. The playmakers in the Triangle are Fisher, Gasol, Odom, and Kobe. The Lakers have TWO 7'0" footers in the lane and including a 6'7' 260lb Artest, Why would Kobe go for a rebound when he has a WHOLE front line that can do that for him? LeBron has a monsterous body and poor rebounding teamates( Bosh, Big Z, Jamison, Shaq, etc...) which results in that inflated stat.

Now in blocks and steals, defense in the game of basketball is vastly overrated. Getting two steals DOES not mean you're a elite defender. Real defense is based on contesting shots, stopping penetration, and forcing the defender to be uncomfortable. Stats do not show that whats so ever. Good reason why Mr.Battier is an amazing defender. You can basically get steals by GAMBLING which get really hurt your team on the defensive end. Blocks are overrated too but not as much. You can simply contest a shot without jumping up ala Tim Duncan style. Stats do not show that. LeBron uses all his speed and vertical to get a block on someone shorter than him on the break. Really doesn't mean anything. I would say that if he did that on a halfcourt defense than I would not be writing this. Defense is not only on steals and blocks but rather rebounds, contests, and methods of stopping the other player. It's the game of basketball.

[x-uNdErRaTeD-z]

I had to fuckin register to the site just to respond to this nonsense(been following for 3 years now so fuck it).
Simple as this:
We know you love LeBron James and that he's the best player in the history of basketball. There! Happy?
You really need to calm down because you literally are embrassing yourself and you're attacking people because they aren't responding to your nonsense. Want a a good debate? Go talk to Benji or Shadowgrin and they'll f you up with facts. Please stop with this craziness because nobody is buying your opinion except yourself. Now leave, you troll.

Well this is a post so anybody with something to say can say it, i'm sure Benji or Shadowgrin are not the only members with functioning brains so why would i do that? I don't love LeBron James, that's gay and ofcourse he's not the best player in the history of the NBA(not yet HAHAHA jk)

i don't see anybody surpassing MJ but you never know if LeBron messes around and averages a triple-double in a season

And the shock there is to show how un-impossible i find that. My posts in the have your NBA question answered shows how much i doubt it will ever happen.
And I'm going to take a wild guess and say you are Charlie Sheen? What are you a warlock or something?

There's more people that can shut you down but you're not really worth it, sir. You completely are biased and no one is changing your opinion. You're a waste of time literally. No one is taking you serious and now I see why.

[x-uNdErRaTeD-z]

What a stupid stupid thing to say, waht if you took away LeBron's atheletism?? What if you took away Kobe's athleticism when he was younger? What if you took away Jordan's athleticism when he was younger? You don't get that when these type of players start in the NBA their athleticism is what they rely on because they are young and agile but when they get older they develop more of a jumpshooting game to use less energy. You seem to forget LeBron is 26 yrs old and the skill and basketball I.Q Kobe has comes with time. Same with Jordan.

Sir, Kobe and Michael, ever since they came to the league, they have shown signs of the ability to adapt with their skill. I NEVER seen LeBron not try anything without his athleticism. Kobe and Michael had postgames early in their career(well not Michael becuase he too much of a athletic freak). Kobe had a shot as well, he had a very nice pull-up jumper and by the time he reached around 27 years old, he started to change his game. LeBron has never shown any signs of improvement fundamentally and In doubt he'll get it in 3 years because Kobe and Micahel had worked on it before.

When they started they came out dunking on everybody because they could but later slowed down to the mid-range game because they couldn't. DUH(get it? because you're Charlie Sheen lol)..

I really can not take you serious after you posted that. You do not even know who I am in real life and you're stating irrelevant things like that.

And i remember i was in a different thread and i posted that Kobe is the best scorer in the NBA followed by the likes of Paul Pierce and Melo as opposed to Durant because of the skill level so you don't have to explain that to me.

Love the way you completely ignore my Kobe statement.

You say LeBron was the point gaurd? No he was the point foward and not everybody could do that. Doesn't that count for something if one man can play positions from 1-4 and still be successful at each? Do you know how much work it is to be responsible for leading the scoring of yourself, and for your teammates?
I'll brb, i'm going to a class and i will address the rest of your issues

Point guard and point foward have the same jobs sir, I know the differnce. You seem to forget the game's legends because they clearly have accomplished that already. Larry Bird had triple double stats, Magic had them, Scottie Pippen, Oscar Robertson, and even more. Hell, even Hedo Turkgolu and Andre Igoudala can get high points, assists, and rebounds like that. You're acting like if no one can do that.

[shadowgrin]

Another thing, if Kobe is so dedicated to his craft and is doing work after work, why hasn't he ever had a 38% for 3s? So obviously James Jones is more dedicated when it comes to 3s, and so is Kyle Korver, and Jason Kapono, and Peja Stojahovic(idk how to spell his name, deal with it). Why hasn't he shot 90% for freethrows? Obviously Billups, Nash, Mo Williams, Kevin Durant are more dedicated too, and why hasn't he shot 50% for fg in a season? Obviously LeBron is more dedicated than he is.

The same "criticism" can be said about LeBron's FT shooting.

BTW it's funny how nobody has actually addressed/answered any of my questions and what about the LeBron supporters? Or did all of you guys jump ship already?

No one jumped ship. No one sailed with the ship in the beginning anyway.
Two things. Those who are willing to discuss such a comparison have either:

1) Made up their own opinion and have such preference for one player or the other, despite stats or no stats. Their personal reason is justification enough. Nothing wrong with that imo, unless one crosses that line of being an annoying fanboi.

2) This kind of discussion has been done to death in the NLSC, or any basketball forum for that matter.
Like Lamrock said, "the billionth fucking thread". That is just the LeBron vs. Kobe ones, it doesn't even include yet Shaq vs. Wilt, Jordan vs. Kobe, T-Mac vs. Kobe, etc. At one point or the other those willing to discuss and participate will eventually tire of the same old same old back and forths.
Especially with the limiting conditions you set forth in your thread. Comparing an 'older' player to a 26 year old freak of nature that hasn't even reached his prime yet? Might as well ask Kobe to jump over a moving truck irl.
It's like you made this thread and set the conditions so that you can stand up high in your soap box and enjoy looking down on others. How's the view up ther btw?
Though if you're lucky, you can force lurkers to actually post with such 'controversial' topics.

What a stupid stupid thing to say, waht if you took away LeBron's atheletism?? What if you took away Kobe's athleticism when he was younger? What if you took away Jordan's athleticism when he was younger? You don't get that when these type of players start in the NBA their athleticism is what they rely on because they are young and agile but when they get older they develop more of a jumpshooting game to use less energy. You seem to forget LeBron is 26 yrs old and the skill and basketball I.Q Kobe has comes with time. Same with Jordan.

Jordan already had a decent mid-range game early in his career. In college even.
Kobe already had NBA range during his younger days. His problem then (and at times even now) was bad shot selection. Real bad shot selection, because he knew he can shoot that far which leads to some really ugly results (see LAL vs. Uta playoff series).

[hova-]

Nice post, shadow.

I won't try to convince imefimef, it's obvious that he does not want to accept other opinions and a solid discussions needs different point of views but also acceptance.

[Jackal]

Kobe Bryant, Lebron sucks cock.

[imefimef]

Ok Kobe has been in the NBA for a while now and the Lakers have had teams with great rebounders and teams without, now they do(Bynum Pau Gasol), the time after Shaq and Phil Jackson left they didn't(Kwame Brown and Divac). Kobe gotten 6.9 rebounds once and the next highsest 6.3. Same with assists Lakers have played out the triangle offense and Kobe has never gotten more than 6 assists a game which was once then one 5.9. As far as Kobe's defense from one of those links i posted:

THE DEFENSE MYTH

The myth is that Kobe Bryant is one of the most dominant defensive players in the NBA. That's just not true. In his book, Basketball on Paper, Dean Oliver unveils a stat used at basketball-reference.com called "defensive rating." It is a measure of how many points a player surrenders on the defensive end of the court. Not at all surprisingly, among active players with over 400 games played, Duncan leads with a rating of 95.

Lest you think that this is one of those stats that puts too much weight on team defense I offer two counters. First, the defensive rating is per 100 possessions, meaning it's pace adjusted. Also, last year Kobe was 4th on his own team, behind Odom, Gasol and Bynum. The issue with Kobe's defense is that while he can play absolutely chilling defense when he applies himself to it, he doesn't normally do so. If one defines defense as actually stopping the other guys from scoring then Kobe Bryant is greatly overrated as a defensive player, and belongs nowhere near an all defense team.

Kobe has never led the league in steals, and only finished in the top 5 twice. He's only finished in the top 10 in Defensive Win Shares once. He's only averaged more than a block a game once in his career. Not only does he not stop the other guy from scoring, he doesn't generate a lot of big plays himself either. I understand the illusion exists that he's a great defensive player, so please don't come telling me how many All Defensive teams he's been on. He doesn't belong on them.

Well if someone actually says something worth listening to then why the hell wouldn't I? I mean really you're telling me all the "because he has shark like instincts are supposed to make me change my opinions?

[Jackal]

Lebron James sucks dick, I think Kobe Bryant is the best player to ever play and if you say he isnt you suck the cock too.

[imefimef]

What? Micheal Jordan was a HORRIBLE 3 point shooter in his first 5 seasons, he shot from 0.173% to 0.276%. Those are nothing but HORRIBLE numbers, and in the coming seasons he still had bad years in shooting the 3(especially at the end of his career ending with 0.18% and 0.29%. And you honestly are telling me LeBron didn't get better as a shooter since '03? If you honestly believe that then i don't respect any of your opinions because that literally makes no sense.

And if you're too stupid to get that i'm joking by calling you Charlie Sheen and you believe i think you really are Charlie Sheen then yeah, turn off the computer and put on your helmet.

I did not ignore your Kobe statement, i more than agreed with it because i have gotten into an argument before stating Kobe is the best scorer in the NBA by far, so it would be stupid to argue with somebody who is agreeing with you. This is from the Basketball Video thread:

when i say scorer, i mean SKILL not ppg. Dwade led the league in scoring last season but he isn't that skilled. I say yes Paul Pierce is better than Durant, Eliis and Anthony. If you ask for my top 5 scorers list(SKILL being my point of emphasis.
1. Kobe
2. Paul Pierce

IMO Paul Peirce is one of the best scorers in the NBA right now. Second only to Kobe Bryant.

Oscar Robertson played in a different time, they actually adjusted his stats to today's game and it doesn't come up to a triple double, the pace was much more different and i remember LeBron's stats were adjust to that pace and it actually came out to more than a triple double over a season. Hedo, Andre, Pippen and Magic never scored 30per. The only 3 players to ever get 30 points a game, over 7 rebounds and 7 assists are The big O (but i already explained about the pace thing), Micheal Jordan (You prolly heard about him before) and oh this dude called LeBron. Only rookies to get 20+ ppg game 5 rebs and 5 asts? Big O, MJ and LeBron.