A summation of the current Kobe situation

I don't think punishing someone for a crime is a case of two wrongs making a right. If someone commits a crime, then they should be punished. Punishment can be justified, but crime cannot.

But to me, sending someone to prison is like doing another wrong (which seems morally right). If Kobe did something bad (wrong) then he needs to be punished by spending years in jail (another wrong if looked at independently). However, this logic is considered to be the right thing to do.

Obviously, there was enough proof for the DA to take this matter to the next step, so there must be evidence that it may have happened.

There may have enough proof, but the DA also acted selfishly by the way he handeled the whole thing. There were many instances where he was trying to get some tv time by dragging out the process. He was also very quick to arrest Kobe when most other arrests of this nature take a little longer.

But my point is, a verdict of not guilty does not necessarily mean she's a gold digger. It doesn't necessarily mean she was lying.

I disagree on some of the finer points (whether a guilty/not guilty verdict determines whether someone is a liar).

Then by this logic, a verdict of guilty does not necessarily mean that Kobe is guilty of rape but might be punished for it anyways.

I don't think we're flaming, as the forum admin it would be highly inappropriate for me to do so. Let's not confuse intense discussion with flaming.

I know, but this is how many flame wars get started and end up escalating into the trading of insults.

Do you know every single fan of Kobe Bryant personally and every single one of them is mentally stable and intelligent enough to know how stupid it would be to go to jail for their favorite basketball player? Seeing as few of the posters on the board know that making threatening phone calls or whatever is even illegal, what makes you think that every single person in the US that is a fan of Bryant knows that?

I don't think your questions are in dispute, Shane. I think scubilete was merely noting that the threats the alleged victim's received haven't come to fruition.

This woman isn't....and who knows what would happen to her if her name was released? Probably nothing....but in this case (and every other rape case), better safe than sorry.

Absolutely. Her directory information isn't being released for privacy concerns, and this should be paramount.

The news quoted her by saying "I do not want his money," but I guess you are going to call her a liar cuz you do not believe her

Really? What news organization quoted her? To the contrary, it's been widely reported that the alleged victim has not and will not accept interviews.

The people in Eagle County KNOW who she is. They know about her past, and nobody has said anything bad about her.

You're off-base here, Travis. By a lot. Granted, friends of the alleged victim have done the interview tour, and many have been cogent in supporting the accuser. However, many of her peers have labeled her "attention starved," among other things. About a week after charges were filed, ESPN aired an interview with a male Eagle, Colorado resident who graduated with Faber. Apparently, he hosted a party where the alleged victim was there, bragging about the size of Kobe's manhood, a story confirmed by five other people at the party. Said the party host in the interview, and I'm paraphrasing here, "She [Faber] has always been like that. It's always been about being the center of attention with her." Since then, her ex-boyfriend's said the same thing, and her roommate from college echoed similar claims in lieu of her drug overdose.

You just do not get it; a man might not be hurt by it as much as a woman does.

Then again, a woman might not be hurt by threats as much. Generally speaking, Travis, I'd advise you (or anyone with your level of hubris) to offer a more definitive and rationally sound rejoinder before telling someone they "just do not get it." What you said was sexist and completely unfounded.

Did anyone really care what Clinton does?

This case with Kobe and the accuser is different because there is more public interest.

I'm not quite sure how the thread shifted in this direction, but your answer's self-evident. Yeah, people cared. An entire nation cared. And despite your disinterest, generations to come will be reading about the Clinton impeachment fiasco. Will they be reading about Kobe Bryant? Maybe, but the Bryant case won't hold a candle to the Clinton case, at least not in terms of historical importance.

Political cases are serious to political people. All you are going to hear are debates and opinions. You cannot compare that to what we are having here because this case is VERY different.

So, we won't hear debates or opinions in the Bryant case?

I don't think punishing someone for a crime is a case of two wrongs making a right. If someone commits a crime, then they should be punished. Punishment can be justified, but crime cannot.

Absolutely. And I don't think incarcerating someone who poses a threat to society is a wrong. I see your logic, Robby, but I can't agree with the way you've applied it.

Guess that is why you think I am coming up with "idiotic comments"

Idiotic is to believe I'm a Kobe fan,

Listen man; don't speak when you don't even know how things are in America.

See, you don't even know where I live, everyone who is old enough in the forum knows where I live, you don't. And you want me to shut up? Oh please, what will you do to make me?, what make you think I don't even know how things are in America?, watch your mouth when you speak.

Not everyone speaks your language..

Well, the only one I see around who doesn't speak English is you, also everyone knows your brain is not working at all,

You have to be careful what you do here because it's not that easy to fool the government or the police.

Like I'm not part of the Goverment, . You should be more careful talking overhere, cause you don't know who you're talking to, that's an advice.

Are we talking about how stupid you are?

Exactly, I'm going to ignore your comments, you know well you are just a hater and all you know is how to hate people for having different opinions, you are nothing but a piece of it coming online. At least if you are going to hate anyone for being a basketball fan, do it the right way, not coming overhere and creating post promoting your hate against any person with a different opinion. I discuss topics in here and I don't have to call you names, even when I know you are a retarded, even when I know what an idiot you are, even when I know you don't worth a minute of my time, the rules are that I can't discriminate you for being all that and I follow those.

I didn't have to read all the shit you typed, hopefully you didn't spend long typing those, try to respect others so you can ask for any respect you might deserve, that's coming from a Lakers fan.

Think about this...if threats weren't serious, why would they be illegal?

There are many things that are illegal Shane. Also, I'm not arguing it's a good thing to get a threat, all I'm saying is you won't die by getting those.

That's because it's not the threat that kills them

Say I started annonymously calling your house, asking for you, and then telling you that I was going to kill you because you're a Laker fan... Now, if you get 5000 calls and emails daily from people telling you that they're going to kill you, wouldn't you kind of worry?

How many votes did Kobe Bryant got for the All-Star game?, "maybe 1000000" that's a count you can say they were the fans, even like that, some of them were not fans but wanted to see a show performed. Probably 500000 were real fans.

Also, that's the whole world count, probably 100000 from the U.S., As you can see, not everyone is a Lakers fan. For you to be a Kobe fan and not being a Lakers fan, it would be difficult to believe. Maybe 50,000 in the US are real Lakers fan. And we might as well say most of them are in Los Angeles, I would ask you if you think Jack Nicholson would kill anyone for Kobe? No, right, so not everyone who goes to the Staples Center would do something like that. That's a minus 20 or 30 thousand. From there to think there are more than 100 would kill for Kobe and I would bet that person might come from CA, I just doubt it, I mean, not everyone overthere is mentally ill or crazy enough to do that, but I do understand what you are saying, I just don't think things would go that far. However, if you think it would, it's ok, but believe me, even here you won't see people fighting for Kobe, all they are saying is that they don't believe Kobe did anything, but they are not even fighting to prove it.

not to mention the fact that there WAS NOT A CRIMINAL TRIAL INVOLVING BILL CLINTON AND MONICA LEWINSKI.

Shane, let's not start a Payton thread again, I told you I'm not comparing the case of rape with whatever Monica did, I said there are as many crazy politicians as sports fans, meaning that people (those crazy ones) would kill Monica for messing up the nation's leader life, however, nothing happened.

This is different than both situations...but you probably won't figure that out till Kobe's free and this woman's life is ruined or Kobe's put in jail and this woman's life is ruined...

My last paragraph goes to that as well, not comparing the criminal cases but the reason to hide identity.

So if my friend Heidi, who was aneroxic and is on medication for depression, was raped, she would just be ignored because she had an eating disorder and is on meds?

Shane, nobody is saying people have to ignore her, but knowing your friend was like that, she can't complain if people points her out for being aneroxic. If this girl was mentally ill before, she can't complain of people calling her names like "crazy". That's the point. Nothing related with doubts about her being raped or not. Again, I'm not arguing if she was raped or not, I was not there and I'm not a Kobe fan to feel bad about Kobe, if he did it, he has to pay for it.

But tell me, Michael Jackson, has been questioned several times for having sex with male kids, do you think they (those kids) have had to hide their identity?, knowing Michael Jackson has much more fame than Kobe, some of them would kill for him as well, do you think they hide? NO, that's why I don't think that girl should hide, those kids are not affraid of showing their faces.

STOP COMPARING THINGS THAT ARE NOT SIMILAR.

Nobody is, I've been repeating the same thing, I'm not comparing the criminal cases but the reasons to hide identity.

Really? What news organization quoted her? To the contrary, it's been widely reported that the alleged victim has not and will not accept interviews.

I believe it was Nightline NBC, not sure. What I saw was it posted up a newspaper (dunno the name of it) with bold type letters for the headline that reads, "I do not want his money." What you brought up about her declining interviews, that is another point of her not doing this for the money.

About a week after charges were filed, ESPN aired an interview with a male Eagle, Colorado resident who graduated with Faber. Apparently, he hosted a party where the alleged victim was there, bragging about the size of Kobe's manhood, a story confirmed by five other people at the party.

Yeah I heard of that story, but even though you said five people confirmed it; it is still hard to believe.

Then again, a woman might not be hurt by threats as much.

True, but not many..

Yeah, people cared. An entire nation cared. And despite your disinterest, generations to come will be reading about the Clinton impeachment fiasco. Will they be reading about Kobe Bryant? Maybe, but the Bryant case won't hold a candle to the Clinton case, at least not in terms of historical importance.

Yes, an entire nation cared, but only for a short time. The only ones that will keep bringing it up and talk about it are Politicians. Why? Because that is what they do, they debate and opinionate it all the time. What else? History books, students, they have to because it is History and nothing else. Lemme ask you this, if we were to compare Clinton and George W. Bush right now. Who do you think the Nation will respect more? Someone who wants to have fun all the time (Clinton), or someone who leads the Nation by taking matters to his own hands? As said before, Clinton has been joked about because of what he did. My family did not really care what he was doing when he was Pres. Yeah they talked about it, but it was more of, "he's not doing a good job" kind of thing. Now Bush is President, they are happy because he is a strong President. Yes, many people will disagree, but the majority of the polls now approved of Bush as compared to when he was first elected. You see, the War with Iraq would never happen this early if Clinton were still President. He has only been President for a few years and already he is trying to get rid of terror groups, and taking care of business in Iraq. Anyway, I am not talking anymore about Clinton or any political views. That is just off subject.. As far as people reading about the Kobe case, yes they are. In fact, that is what is out there right now, on TV, and newspaper all over the country. Again, today at around 3 PM (PST), you're going to see every news organization televising the Kobe Bryant first court appearance. Therefore, it is important, but you can't just compare something like sports to history. Of course, history is going to be more important than anything.

So, we won't hear debates or opinions in the Bryant case?

Debates and opinions on another level, it is not the same as political views. In short terms, you won't be hearing "Republicans and Democrats" when talking about Kobe Bryant, or the case will you? I don't think so, what you will hear will be like.. "What happened that night?" or "Who's telling the truth?" and so on.

See, you are talking trash here, you don't even know where I live, everyone who is old enough in the forum knows where I live, you don't. And you want me to shut up? Oh please, what will you do to make me?, what make you think I don't even know how things are in America?, watch your mouth when you speak.

What you are hurt by it? LOL. Yeah I don't even know where you live, don't really care though. You sure don't sound like you are anywhere in the States, at least in your "location" it says differently.. Haha, I am not the only one that wants you to shut up. If I am correct, I am not the only one you are arguing with. I am also not the only one telling you to THINK, or calling you a fuckin' idiot! Look at Shane's last post, numerous times he's called you an "idiot" if you didn't know or understand that by now.. What makes me think that you don't know how things are in America? Re-read Shane and Andrew's posts again.. Man, Andrew doesn't even live in the States and he has MORE brains than you do. At least he knows what is right from wrong. How things are in America as compared to other country. As for you, you are just another loser who don't know shit other than "I'm just a Laker fan..” PLEASE......

Well, the only one I see around who doesn't speak English is you, also everyone knows your brain is not working at all..

What's funny is your STUPIDITY..man.. *shakes head*

Like I'm not part of the Goverment, lol. You should be careful talking overhere, cause you don't know who you're talking to, that's a better advice.

Government my ass, you know nothing about U.S. laws and you say..government? I guess this is another one of your stupid jokes right?

you know well you are just a hater and all you know is how to hate people for having different opinions, you are nothing but a piece of it coming online.

What is this again? Are you ignoring what others are writing about you and your IQ? I guess it is hard for you to swallow such bad remarks doesn't it? lol

I discuss topics in here and I don't have to call you stupid even when I know you are, even when I know you are an idiot, even when I know you are not worthy a minute of my time.

You love to joke around don't you? Maybe that's why you are a joke..

try to respect others so you can earn any respect you deserve, that's coming from a Lakers fan.

Like you're getting respect from "other fans"..

all I'm saying is you won't die by getting those.

Just like what Andrew said before..

You keep coming back to this idea of if it's not physical, it's not abuse. No, they didn't kill her, but they did harrass her with angry emails and so forth. And that's still wrong. Constant threats can be upsetting.

So until she dies, then it does matter? If she is still alive, she can keep getting death threats and everything will be OK?

What you are hurt by it?

No, I'm not hurt, did I say I was, no. Whenever you come doing your foolishnesses, I don't care, I care about this place but not about you, you are nothing in this world.

You sure don't sound like you are anywhere in the States, at least in your "location" it says differently.

Well, I do live in the States and even better, I don't live in CA.

Haha, I am not the only one that wants you to shut up.

But you are the only ass asking for it.

If I am correct, I am not the only one you are arguing with.

Exactly, even I'm not arguing with you, I'm just showing you how low your selfsteem is.

Look at Shane's last post, numerous times he's called you an "idiot" if you didn't know or understand that by now.

I know Shane longer to know he uses those expressions, which makes me laugh, however Shane is not you, and you are a piece of shit coming from CA, I don't like all Morons coming around calling everyone else names.

Re-read Shane and Andrew's posts again.

Don't have to, they know how to make their point clear, even when they know some people have different opinions, they don't hate those for having their own opinions, like you do.

Man, Andrew doesn't even live in the States and he has MORE brains than you do.

Maybe Andrew has 2 brains, I just have 1, however, that doesn't mean you have any,

As for you, you are just another loser who don't know shit other than "I'm just a Laker fan..”

As for you, you are just a piece of shit crying cause the Lakers make too much noise around where you live.

Government my ass, you know nothing about U.S. laws and you say..government? I guess this is another one of your stupid jokes right?

Yeah right, maybe the Gov. has been fucking your ass for so long you can't even feel it.

Are you ignoring what others are writing about you and your IQ?

Your IQ is 100 points below 0, that's all you are showing, you have to spend 3 hours reading something before you understand a single word, you go to summer school every single year,

You love to joke around don't you? Maybe that's why you are a joke..

, the only joke overhere is you, have 50 posts welcoming people, hey, welcome back how was your vacation?, hello there, welcome back. how was your vacation?

Like you're getting respect from "other fans"

I don't have to, but like I said, I would disrespect you as many times as I please cause you don't have any respect to others around, nor respect their opinions, you are just a piece of shit.

Are you guys two years old? Grow up or shut up...

I call Scub an idiot a lot because he makes uneducated or confusing statements, and it's kind of my nickname for him.

Scub, if anything had happened to Monica Lewinksi, there would have been an enormous investigation....she was already in the public spotlight, if anyone had harmed her for Clinton, Clinton would be impeached and possibly convicted on conspiracy to commit murder/assassination charges...whatever htye are.

I don't feel like wading through the rest of the flames to comment on anything else...get back on subject, and grow up....

Well...........i guess Scubilete is working for the government of the north pole atleast its GOOD to livin in California and NOT the NORTH POLE so stop talking poop about travis he's the coolest patcher of all time fear him!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now STFU you Homo erotic sensation

I believe it was Nightline NBC, not sure. What I saw was it posted up a newspaper (dunno the name of it) with bold type letters for the headline that reads, "I do not want his money."

Any chance it was The National Enquirer? Kidding aside, she hasn't gone on record, and we'll have to wait until her testimony before she does.

What you brought up about her declining interviews, that is another point of her not doing this for the money.

Not so fast. Remember, she's hired her own lawyer (and a very good one at that), who's surely instructed her to avoid the press. I'm not saying she is pursuing Kobe solely for his money (at this point, no one knows her true resolve), but I'd be surprised if she didn't file a civil suit after the matter is wrapped up criminally. Furthermore, Mark Hurlbert's instructed her to decline all interviews, so it's really a matter of her following requests/demands, which is the sound legal strategy.

Yeah I heard of that story, but even though you said five people confirmed it; it is still hard to believe.

Why is it hard to believe? You said in your last post that the people in Eagle, Colorado know her best, and therefore are most qualified to speak of her character. Now, since their opinions (in part, at least) don't correlate with yours, you'll just dismiss them as untrue simply because it's more convenient for you? C'mon now.

Bourbon wrote:
Then again, a woman might not be hurt by threats as much.

True, but not many..

Again, how can you say this? You have no idea. Funny, you have no compunctions with zinging ad hominem attacks at others who make similar blanket statements, yet you yourself lack a consistent foundation of reason.

On a side note, props to Robby, Andrew, and anyone else who's managed to post without calling someone else an "asshole," an "idiot," or demeaning another's opinion based on something as trivial as their location or display picture.

On a side note, props to Robby, Andrew, and anyone else who's managed to post without calling someone else an "asshole," an "idiot," or demeaning another's opinion based on something as trivial as their location or display picture.

I call Scub an idiot at lot, though....usually just cause he's misinformed or not clear in his post....*shrug*

Like I said before.

I know Shane longer to know he uses those expressions, which makes me laugh

Meaning, some people have green lights to use some expressions when directing to myself because they are known or personal friends, however...

I don't like all Morons coming around calling everyone else names.

Meaning exactly what it says,

As for the California thing Old School, Pres. Bush comments on Iraq were "Iraq is just like California, just that overthere you would find more english speakers than in CA state". I don't know anything good coming from CA, besides that. Also, your comment regarding patches and my location, , Santa might refuse to get NBA Live 2004 for you this year, so take it easy.

Ive seen a article similair to this one, the other one also added that the bellman is a good friend of the 19 yr old women. It also convirms that she had torn clothes and was crying. where was he all the time, it is like 3 weeks ago and he shows up now? and shouldnt a good friend take the victim straight to the police station after she told him she was raped? or take her to the hospital with these such noticable injuries? some friend... And why isnt he on the Witnesses list?

the prosecution's case consists of more than just the victim's accusation, and i dont think that the bellboy is the only evidence or witness in their case. i would think this one piece of evidence only came out after 3 weeks because it was only just then leaked out to the media somehow.

Well, I asked you the same thing if it was MJ, for sure every MJ fan would be doing what Kobe fans are doing, no doubt about it. I'm not a Kobe fan but a Lakers fan, all I think is -- there's no reason to hide, I don't think anyone would kill someone for Kobe, I don't think anyone would go to jail for Kobe, I don't think anyone would do any crazy thing for Kobe, I might be wrong but I don't think it would happen --.

i'm nuetral towards mj, but i was a jason kidd fan before he beat his wife. i think its below me to admire someone who can do something as low as that or rape or even commit adultery. kobe's already commited one foul and even if its the lesser it doesnt make it any better, and so my nuetrality towards him has changed to disdain, though i dont really hate him. how could i? i dont know him.

in a nutshell, truthfully, no. if i was an mj fan i wouldnt be doing what the kobe fans are doing.

Well Andrew, what do you want people to say? all they are saying is the truth. Over here if you kill someone, it will stay in your records until you die and you will be known as a killer. There's nothing you can do to avoid it. If she had those mental problems, don't expect people to call her Mother Teresa, that's her record & it will stay there forever, no matter what she does to clean it, it will stay there.

its not on her record, we dont know if it is true or not true. right now, she is as guilty of being a drug addict, or suicidal as kobe is guilty of raping her.

and i repeat, just because kobe hasnt done anything before, doesnt make him incapable of doing it. and this case is of course incomparable to the clinton one, clinton was adulterous, thats it. kobe is at the very least adulterous, maybe more.

if kobe is innocent of rape.... hooray. but personally, he'll never be someone i would want anyone to look up to..... you're not a good person because you DIDN'T commit rape. and people shouldnt be saying, oh, he JUST cheated on his wife, as if that is some kind of relief. if someone shoots you, and you dont die, but are just paralyzed, is that a 'relief'? innocence from a greater wrong doesnt make a lesser wrong any less wrong. of course not everyone is saying he's a great person, but for those who are.... boooooooooooooooo!!! either way he's anything but. he might be an okay person who made a mistake, but he's no role model in my book.

I call Scub an idiot at lot, though....usually just cause he's misinformed or not clear in his post....*shrug*

Yeah, I think it's cool to rip on someone if it's in jest, but a lot of Travis' comments are pretty tasteless.

Absolutely. And I don't think incarcerating someone who poses a threat to society is a wrong. I see your logic, Robby, but I can't agree with the way you've applied it.

That's exactly what I wanted you to realize. I was trying to show that the concept of "two wrongs don't make a right" is not really applicable in the real world (or in this case at least). That's why I gave those examples of how Kobe being sent to jail on rape charges are two wrongs but in this case the two wrongs do make a right since he should be punished if he raped the girl. Andrew, this is all I was trying to prove to you too.

That's exactly what I wanted you to realize. I was trying to show that the concept of "two wrongs don't make a right" is not really applicable in the real world (or in this case at least). That's why I gave those examples of how Kobe being sent to jail on rape charges are two wrongs but in this case the two wrongs do make a right since he should be punished if he raped the girl.

Robby, it'd be a wrong not to send Kobe to jail if he committed the crime he's being accused of, so I guess that's where I disagree with your application. You apparently misunderstood, because I'm not really agreeing with you.

I understand that, but I disagree that punishment for a crime is a wrong. It's the consequence of a negative action. So it's not a case of two wrongs if you send some to prison for a crime - it's an action and a consequence.

Robby, it'd be a wrong not to send Kobe to jail if he committed the crime he's being accused of, so I guess that's where I disagree with your application. You apparently misunderstood, because I'm not really agreeing with you.

I understand that, but I disagree that punishment for a crime is a wrong. It's the consequence of a negative action. So it's not a case of two wrongs if you send some to prison for a crime - it's an action and a consequence.

I didn't misunderstand you Bourbon, I just didn't explain myself clearly in my previous post. I never said that sending Kobe to prison because of his crime is wrong, because morally it's the right thing to do. I said (look at my initial posts) that the act of sending Kobe or anyone else to jail, when looked at independently instead of punishment for a crime, is a wrong. Let me clarify:

The act of raping someone is a wrong and a form of abuse.

The act of putting someone in jail is a wrong and a form of abuse.

Now by the statement "two wrongs don't make a right," Kobe shouldn't be sent to jail (a wrong) for raping someone (another wrong). Hence, two wrongs don't make a right so Kobe should be set free. This is why the concept of "two wrongs don't make a right" is not applicable in this case.

However, when looked at by using moral logic, Kobe should be punished because he committed a crime. This is the right logic for this situation. Does that clarify what I'm trying to say?

Andrew, that's what I was trying to show you because in an earlier post you said "two wrongs don't make a right". That's not applicable in this case because the action consequence logic is what's required, which is what you just suggested now.

Last edited by Robby on Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Again, what's REALLY funny is your stupidity! I'm out because I don't want to waste anymore of my precious time arguing to a stupid loser like you.. Saying you live in the States but you know NOTHING about what is right and what is wrong. I'll let others decide who's side they're on, as well as who was right and who was wrong.

Travis

Care to resume debate with me, Travis? Or am I not up to your high and mighty verbal standards?

Go travis

I'll be quoting out of order here, but there's a method in my madness.

Now by the statement "two wrongs don't make a right," Kobe shouldn't be sent to jail (a wrong) for raping someone (another wrong). Hence, two wrongs don't make a right so Kobe should be set free. This is why the concept of "two wrongs don't make a right" is not applicable in this case.

Well, let's define a situation where "two wrongs don't make a right", as the old saying goes.

Two children are playing with each other's toys. One child accidently breaks a toy that belongs to the other child. In retaliation, the second child breaks a toy that belongs to the first child. Obviously, there is a sense of revenge and evening things out, but it doesn't justify the second child doing something bad.

Sending someone to prison because they did something bad is not wrong. I guess you could call it payback for what they've done, and taking away a person's freedom could be considered wrong. However, society works because there are rules are in place, and one of those rules is that if you commit a crime such as rape or murder, you forfeit your freedom.

The act of putting someone in jail is a wrong and a form of abuse.

The idea of taking away a person's freedom is wrong, but it's a justifiable action if such measures will prevent further crime being committed. I don't see how prison can be seen as a form of abuse. There are rules we must follow if we want to exist as a society. Breaking those rules calls for some form of action - punishment - and one of the options is to deprive someone of their freedom.

It's not unlike someone who is banned from a private club for poor behaviour. If they do not follow the rules and cause problems, then it's within the club's rights to revoke their membership. Similarly, if we break laws, it's society's right to punish us in a manner fitting our crime.

Andrew, that's what I was trying to show you because in an earlier post you said "two wrongs don't make a right". That's not applicable in this case because the action consequence logic is what's required, which is what you just suggested now.

What I meant by my use of that old saying is that you couldn't justify people abusing her if she is lying.

If she is lying about being the sex not being consensual, then obviously she is in the wrong. BUT...that would not justify people threatening and abusing her. We can be almost 100% sure that she would receive those threats. After all, if people will threaten and abuse someone they think is the alleged victim, why wouldn't they do the same to someone they know is the alleged victim?

That's what I mean when I say two wrongs don't make a right. Sure, if she's doing this for vindictive, "gold digging" reasons, she's in the wrong. She's slandering Kobe, she's committing a crime. BUT...that would not justify her being abused by the public. Committing a crime does not justify being made the victim of a crime.

To release her details in the event of a not guilty verdict would be essentially saying "Well, this is who she is if you want to find her. If you want to abuse her for lying, go nuts." To invite, encourage or commit a crime in retaliation to another crime is wrong, hence my use of "two wrongs don't make a right".

Are you guys two years old? Grow up or shut up...

It's a public board, I can express my opinion if I want. It wasn't directed at you so I don't see how you can get so annoyed by it.. There is something called "ignored," that's all you have to do.

I call Scub an idiot a lot because he makes uneducated or confusing statements..

That's for you scubilete

Any chance it was The National Enquirer? Kidding aside, she hasn't gone on record, and we'll have to wait until her testimony before she does.

How about we'll just wait until the Trial ends? I mean there isn't much you and I (or anyone else) can prove to each other. I have heard your statements, you have heard mines. Until the verdict is in, nobody is completely right. The only "rights" is what you see and hear on TV or the net. The ones that are confirmed to be true and not the ones labeled "rumors."

Not so fast. Remember, she's hired her own lawyer (and a very good one at that), who's surely instructed her to avoid the press. I'm not saying she is pursuing Kobe solely for his money (at this point, no one knows her true resolve), but I'd be surprised if she didn't file a civil suit after the matter is wrapped up criminally. Furthermore, Mark Hurlbert's instructed her to decline all interviews, so it's really a matter of her following requests/demands, which is the sound legal strategy.

That is why it is better to debate furthermore once the verdict is in. What bothered me is when people already saying she's a gold-digger.. They do not know if she is or not, they are happy as long as they get to express that she is a gold-digger. "She's only doing this for Kobe's money."

Why is it hard to believe?

You said..

Apparently, he hosted a party where the alleged victim was there, bragging about the size of Kobe's manhood, a story confirmed by five other people at the party. Said the party host in the interview, and I'm paraphrasing here, "She [Faber] has always been like that. It's always been about being the center of attention with her." Since then, her ex-boyfriend's said the same thing, and her roommate from college echoed similar claims in lieu of her drug overdose.

Five people at a party, how do you know if those people were her friends or not? I mean what if those people did not get along with her so they will just say things like that? She claimed to have been raped by Kobe, so it is hard to believe she would be at a party.. You said her ex-boyfriends said the same thing. Comon, ex-boyfriends/girlfriends don't necessarily will say good things about you. Same goes for her roommate from college, what if they never got along? On the other hand, they do but something went wrong and they don't like being around each other anymore? You just don't know right? There is always a possibility of those things I have said. Again, let’s wait until the case is over. Cuz these little things might not be heard in the court, so basically it would be useless.

Again, how can you say this? You have no idea. Funny, you have no compunctions with zinging ad hominem attacks at others who make similar blanket statements, yet you yourself lack a consistent foundation of reason.

Alright, did you watch the two TV interviews/appearances (ABC's "Good Morning America" and on CNN) by Katie Lovell? She was the one thought to be the girl accusing Kobe Bryant. She is a female, she received MANY threats. What was her reaction to the whole thing when she found out that her pictures were all over the net? This is her EXACT words..

"It has hurt me as a person"

Sources: ESPN and ABCNews.com

Yeah, I think it's cool to rip on someone if it's in jest, but a lot of Travis' comments are pretty tasteless.

So how are my comments "tasteless?" Why don't you look at scubilete's? He's the one making stupid comments that DON'T MAKE ANY SENSE!

Care to resume debate with me, Travis?

As long as you debate in a good manner and make sense at least, I will. Unlike the other guy..

Travis

It wasn't directed at you so I don't see how you can get so annoyed by it..

I was pretty annoyed by it, too. You relentlessly castigated scubilete for behaving like a schmuck, yet you did nothing to separate yourself as his intellectual superior or as the "bigger person." He pushed, so you pushed back harder, and now the peanut gallery's left to shake its collective head.

How about we'll just wait until the Trial ends? I mean there isn't much you and I (or anyone else) can prove to each other. I have heard your statements, you have heard mines. Until the verdict is in, nobody is completely right.

On the matter to which you were referring, one of us is right, and it's not you. You claimed the girl was quoted as saying, "I don't want [Kobe's] money," and I offered the converse. The fact is, she hasn't been quoted, and she won't be. That's what's at issue; I don't know how you got from, "she was quoted," to "well, just wait until the trial ends." Then again, I shouldn't be surprised to see you spewing non sequiturs.

What bothered me is when people already saying she's a gold-digger..

Equally, you don't know she isn't a gold-digger, despite your claims to the contrary in a former post. ("She just wants justice.") As I've said before, and I'm sure there've been others who agree with me, we don't know her intentions yet. Sure, we can speculate, but it wouldn't be fair to adopt a black or white stance.

Five people at a party, how do you know if those people were her friends or not?

I don't know, and I therefore didn't assert that the other party-goers were her friends. Regarding this issue, I was offering an alternative to one of your many erroneous statements. You claimed "nobody" who knew the alleged victim had said anything bad about her, and you wondered who we are to judge her. According to you, the residents of Eagle, Colorado know her best, so they're capable of offering the best insights. Clearly, you were again mistaken, to the tune of a party host, five other party-goers, an ex-boyfriend, and a roommate.

You said her ex-boyfriends said the same thing. Comon, ex-boyfriends/girlfriends don't necessarily will say good things about you. Same goes for her roommate from college, what if they never got along? On the other hand, they do but something went wrong and they don't like being around each other anymore? You just don't know right? There is always a possibility of those things I have said.

Well, Travis, if you've suggested them, then of course we'll be presented a well-thought out compendium of possibilities. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter; once again, you've veered off-topic. I'll admit these possibilities exist, but we were only questioning what people had said about her, not the validity of their statements.

She claimed to have been raped by Kobe, so it is hard to believe she would be at a party..

As utterly mind-blowing as this may have been to you, Travis, it apparently happened.

Alright, did you watch the two TV interviews/appearances (ABC's "Good Morning America" and on CNN) by Katie Lovell? She was the one thought to be the girl accusing Kobe Bryant. She is a female, she received MANY threats. What was her reaction to the whole thing when she found out that her pictures were all over the net? This is her EXACT words..

Yeah, I heard about Katie Lovell, and it's really too bad; she caught a raw deal. However, as painful as it may have been for her, no amount of anguish she endured qualifies your earlier, sexist contention that men handle death threats better than women. Unless you've been the driving force behind some wide-scale sociological study on this very specific matter, I'd say you're in no position to speculate.

I was pretty annoyed by it, too. You relentlessly castigated scubilete for behaving like a schmuck, yet you did nothing to separate yourself as his intellectual superior or as the "bigger person."

Again, all you had to do is ignored me.. How hard is that, damn. I castigated him? Look back, way back and tell me who started what. He brought himself into the mix, same goes for you. If you people are going to comment on what I said, then so be it. Don't be girlish by saying, "oh I'm annoyed by it too so I had to butt in."

You claimed the girl was quoted as saying, "I don't want [Kobe's] money,"

LOL, now don't be stupid like scubilete now.. Get your facts straight, if you read it CORRECTLY. I clearly stated it was on a local news program, Dateline NBC (my bad on the program name the first time I posted about it, supposed to be Dateline NBC not Nightline). I saw that telecast with my own two eyes. You or anyone else might not have seen what I saw because of a few reasons. You don't have the channal in your area. You were watching something else when it was broadcast. You were sleeping, whatever the case might be. I saw what was quoted on the TV screen, so if you're gonna argue about that. You go write and complain to NBC and not me. Cuz I wasn't the one that broadcast that particular section on Kobe and the accuser.. Sheesh, making it seemed like I "claimed" the girl had said that

The fact is, she hasn't been quoted, and she won't be.

The fact is, someone in the Prosecution team quoted that quote from her. Probably for the sake of not having people to think that she's out for his money. Then again, people still think she's a gold-digger Why? Mainly because they are Kobe supporter, and or a Laker fan again They will do ANYTHING to stand behind him or the team no matter how bad the crime is. Anyway, back to the quote. The only people that are in contact with the girl right now are the ones protecting her. Just as I heard on the channel 4 news earlier (NBC news), she MIGHT have to appear on the October 9th Preliminary hearing. So when she does, of course she's gonna be quoted..

I don't know how you got from, "she was quoted,"

I don't have to explain myself again on this matter..

Equally, you don't know she isn't a gold-digger..

So to be fair on both parties, you don't know if he is telling the truth either.

we don't know her intentions yet.

So how can you be so sure you know Kobe would never do such a thing? You don't know what he is like behind doors, or off the basketball court. You don't know the real Kobe Bryant, the one off camera.

I don't know, and I therefore didn't assert that the other party-goers were her friends. Regarding this issue, I was offering an alternative to one of your many erroneous statements. You claimed "nobody" who knew the alleged victim had said anything bad about her, and you wondered who we are to judge her. According to you, the residents of Eagle, Colorado know her best, so they're capable of offering the best insights. Clearly, you were again mistaken, to the tune of a party host, five other party-goers, an ex-boyfriend, and a roommate.

Whatever you say man.. Not like this is ever going to be heard in the court once the Trial starts.. I don't think Kobe's defense team is going to bring up, "oh she went to a party and people say this, people say that."

I'll admit these possibilities exist, but we were only questioning what people had said about her, not the validity of their statements.

And you only bring up the bad ones..

As utterly mind-blowing as this may have been to you, Travis, it apparently happened.

Apparently, this happened; which will be more of an importance than the "party story."

no amount of anguish she endured qualifies your earlier, sexist contention that men handle death threats better than women.

You totally misunderstood my point there. What I said was NOT anything sexist. Another example is this, the DA received death threats didn't he? Now I do not see him hiding or being scared about it. He is able to handle the situation better, even under these circumstances. I am however going to put it this way, men are not affected by them as much as women and vice-versa. Happy? It just depends on how the person is, how he/she handles it.

Don't be girlish by saying, "oh I'm annoyed by it too so I had to butt in."

The fact that I find your disposition to be nauseating doesn't make me "girlish." If members develop feminine qualities everytime you annoy them, this forum would have more estrogen than the Lifetime channel.

LOL, now don't be stupid like scubilete now..

Just before this, you asked me to find out who "started it" between you and scubilete. Well, I don't know, and frankly I don't care enough to find out. But by calling me stupid, it looks like you're the perpetrator here. And buddy, you of all people shouldn't be patronizing me. I'm a Presidential Scholar at Montana State University, although I even earned admission to Harvard, Columbia, Brown, and Amherst. My academic record speaks for itself.

Get your facts straight, if you read it CORRECTLY. I clearly stated it was on a local news program, Dateline NBC (my bad on the program name the first time I posted about it, supposed to be Dateline NBC not Nightline).

No, get your facts straight. Or just re-read your other posts. You said earlier that she was quoted "in some newspaper," so which is it, Travis?

Sheesh, making it seemed like I "claimed" the girl had said that

You did.

Just as I heard on the channel 4 news earlier (NBC news), she MIGHT have to appear on the October 9th Preliminary hearing. So when she does, of course she's gonna be quoted..

When I say she won't be quoted, I'm referring to her giving interviews, not testimony.

I don't have to explain myself again on this matter..

Yeah, it's tough to explain yourself when you can't.

So to be fair on both parties, you don't know if he is telling the truth either.

Agreed, I don't know. As I said earlier, it's fair to speculate, but it's simply too early to harbor a definitive stance.

So how can you be so sure you know Kobe would never do such a thing? You don't know what he is like behind doors, or off the basketball court. You don't know the real Kobe Bryant, the one off camera.

I can't be so sure, and I've never alleged to be. Of course I don't know Kobe Bryant. You're categorically lumping me in with every blind Kobe follower, and of course, without any rudimentary justification in doing so.

Bourbon wrote:
I'll admit these possibilities exist, but we were only questioning what people had said about her, not the validity of their statements.

And you only bring up the bad ones..

Of course I only brought up the bad ones! That was the point! You said no one who knew her said anything bad about her, and I was correcting you. Obviously, I'm going to cite examples that support my contention!

What I said was NOT anything sexist.

It absolutely was, and any reasonable mind who frequents this forum and who's familiar with this thread will agree with me. Your decision was vastly uneducated and entirely founded on your perception of gender roles.

Another example is this, the DA received death threats didn't he? Now I do not see him hiding or being scared about it. He is able to handle the situation better, even under these circumstances.

Really? So the last time you talked to good ol' Mark, he seemed to be doing alright, huh? C'mon, you don't know what kind of toll it's taking on Hurlbert anymore than you know how Kate Faber's holding up.

Again, all you had to do is ignored me.

So, instead of being more educated, use valuable statements & respect other posters comments, we just would have to ignore you?,

LOL, now don't be stupid like scubilete now.

, I really love when stupid guys like you come to the forum, it makes things interesting.

It's a public board, I can express my opinion if I want.

You know, that's right, too bad it's public, so that means we have to keep watching as you make this place worse & worse. If there was a stupidity meter in the entrance, for sure you wouldn't be posting

That's for you scubilete

This is for you Travis.

Meaning, some people have green lights to use some expressions when directing to myself because they are known or personal friends, however... I don't like all Morons (Travis) coming around calling everyone else names.

I'll let others decide who's side they're on, as well as who was right and who was wrong.

So how are my comments "tasteless?" Why don't you look at scubilete's? He's the one making stupid comments that DON'T MAKE ANY SENSE!

But by calling me stupid, it looks like you're the perpetrator here.

You're categorically lumping me in with every blind Kobe follower, and of course, without any rudimentary justification in doing so.

See Travis, everyone knows what you are doing here, that's when I told you your comment was idiotic, but you're right, let's just ignore you.

It absolutely was, and any reasonable mind who frequents this forum and who's familiar with this thread will agree with me.

Your decision was vastly uneducated and entirely founded on your perception of gender roles.

Terrific posts Bourbon,

I'm going to let all of you have some fun, like the best Travis' suggestion was to ignore him, I will do.