Kobe or LBJ in 2007-2008 season?

FYI...These^^ are the kinds of posts/posters I respect.

Kobe also plays with two very good rebounders in Lamar Odom

What. Since when is "top 50" at your position, "very good"? Oh well, at least he's not "great" anymore.

Overall, I think Kobe's the better player. ... if [Kobe is] shouldering the load to an extreme and can't get it done, the Lakers simply will not win.

What if LeBron was shouldering the load to the extreme of the Lakers...or the Cavaliers...and couldn't get it done?

What. Since when is "top 50" at your position, "very good"? Oh well, at least he's not "great" anymore.

According to ESPN, the top 10 players in Rebounds Per Game at the PF position:

Antawn Jamison - 10.9
Carlos Boozer - 10.8
Emeka Okafor - 10.4
Shawn Marion - 10.1
Zach Randolph - 10.0
Kevin Garnett - 9.9
David West - 9.5
Lamar Odom - 9.3
Chris Bosh - 9.3
Udonis Haslem - 9.2

Considering Lamar plays on the perimeter more than every single player on this list, bar possibly Shawn Marion, I would say it's pretty damn impressive. If you wanna list Lamar as a SF, he'd be number 1 on the list over LeBron James by almost a 2 board margin.

As far as I know, Lamar is a very good rebounder.

What if LeBron was shouldering the load to the extreme of the Lakers...or the Cavaliers...and couldn't get it done?

Then the Cavaliers would also lose.

If you don't know what you're talking about...please don't make yourself look stupid. The cavs are loosing? They won the game....infact since LeBron has been back from his injury the Cavs have won 9 out of their last 12 Games. Before he went out with the injury their record was something like 9 and 6.

They went below .500 when he was injured now their 2 above .500 since he's been back. How exactly is he "scoring all the points and their loosing"? Kobe "scored all the points" lastnight with the victory and you didn't have a problem with that did you? "You gotta love the hypocrisy"

They are 2 games above .500 in the damn Eastern Conference. I don't literally mean they are losing more games than winning, but Lebron's team isn't winning as much as past years. This season they are on pace for the same record Kobe "led" his Lakers to in past seasons. That same record most people criticized Kobe for.

And yeah, Kobe did all the scoring and led his team to 45 wins and 42 wins respectively. Yet they were considered losers and Kobe was not considered the best player in the league because of that record. Lebron is doing EXACTLY the same thing Kobe was doing those years but is STILL considered the best player in the league.

Where did I ever say that I was pleased with Kobe scoring all the points last night?

Just to put it short. In past years, Kobe was a better individual performer in past years, Lebron was more successful. Lebron was considered the better player. This year, Lebron's been the better individual performer and Kobe's been more successful. Yet Lebron is STILL the better player. You choose, rank players by their team success or their individual skill. Don't flip flop between the 2, talk about how successful Lebron is and why that makes him the best player, then make a complete 180 the next year and say he's the best player because of his earth shattering stats.

Last edited by LakersRule24 on Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

All i'm sayin tonight is....Silas claimed that kobe scoring 48 on seattle shows he's the best player...in return..I'm asking what does lebron scoring 51 mean in the same light?

Before a knumbnut tries to answer that, let me say that it's a rhetorical question...cause it doesn't mean shit. It only goes to show the stupidity of some people advocating kobe.

According to ESPN, the top 10 players in Rebounds Per Game at the PF position:

Antawn Jamison - 10.9
Carlos Boozer - 10.8
Emeka Okafor - 10.4
Shawn Marion - 10.1
Zach Randolph - 10.0
Kevin Garnett - 9.9
David West - 9.5
Lamar Odom - 9.3
Chris Bosh - 9.3
Udonis Haslem - 9.2

As far as I know, Lamar is a very good rebounder.

And what does rebounds per game say about their rebounding prowess?

Let's reorder those guys by rebounding percentage, shall we?
Carlos Boozer - 18.6
Zach Randolph - 18.4
Emeka Okafor - 17.9
Kevin Garnett - 17.1
Antawn Jamison - 15.8
Shawn Marion - 15.0
Chris Bosh - 15.0
David West - 14.8
Udonis Haslem - 14.9
Lamar Odom - 13.9

Then the Cavaliers would also lose.

Alright, so what does this common sense have to do with a comparison between LeBron and Kobe?

Lebron is doing EXACTLY the same thing Kobe was doing those years but is STILL considered the best player in the league.
...
Just to put it short. In past years, Kobe was a better individual performer in past years, Lebron was more successful. Lebron was considered the better player. This year, Lebron's been the better individual performer and Kobe's been more successful. Yet Lebron is STILL the better player. You choose, rank players by their team success or their individual skill.

You're assuming LeBron was ranked higher only by his team success in the past, and that he wasn't the superior individual player.

Rebounding stats alone don't determine how good of a rebounder you are. If basketball was that easy, there would be no analysts or opinions. Everything would just be left to computers. Take Kidd for example. By looking at his stats, you'd think he is the best rebounding guard in the NBA. Fact is, teammates let him grab boards within his vicinity so that he can get a triple double.

Lebron is doing EXACTLY the same thing Kobe was doing those years but is STILL considered the best player in the league.
...
Just to put it short. In past years, Kobe was a better individual performer in past years, Lebron was more successful. Lebron was considered the better player. This year, Lebron's been the better individual performer and Kobe's been more successful. Yet Lebron is STILL the better player. You choose, rank players by their team success or their individual skill.

You're assuming LeBron was ranked higher only by his team success in the past, and that he wasn't the superior individual player.

Back then if you asked most people why they thought Lebron was better than Kobe, the number 1 answer would have been because of Lebron's playoff success. Look at the analysts that said Lebron>Kobe. They will say two words. NBA FINALS.

Anyone claiming that kobe doesn't rebound as much as Lebron because of odom is a moron. In all the years kobe has been in the NBA he's been a scorer and defender...that IT. He doesn't look to rebound or challenge bigger men for rebounds and he certainly doesn't look to set up teammates with assists.

Anyone remember a short guy named charles barkley? Yea? Good...so stop using kobe's height and size vs LeBron's as an excuse for the rebouding desparity.

Lebron is doing EXACTLY the same thing Kobe was doing those years but is STILL considered the best player in the league.
...
Just to put it short. In past years, Kobe was a better individual performer in past years, Lebron was more successful. Lebron was considered the better player. This year, Lebron's been the better individual performer and Kobe's been more successful. Yet Lebron is STILL the better player. You choose, rank players by their team success or their individual skill.

You're assuming LeBron was ranked higher only by his team success in the past, and that he wasn't the superior individual player.

Back then if you asked most people why they thought Lebron was better than Kobe, the number 1 answer would have been because of Lebron's playoff success. Look at the analysts that said Lebron>Kobe. They will say two words. NBA FINALS.

Before this season...no analyst has ever ranked LeBron as being better than kobe. I challenge you to name one....or link to one. If you can't then please stop saying that shit.

Kobe also plays with two very good rebounders in Lamar Odom

What. Since when is "top 50" at your position, "very good"? Oh well, at least he's not "great" anymore.

Overall, I think Kobe's the better player. ... if [Kobe is] shouldering the load to an extreme and can't get it done, the Lakers simply will not win.

What if LeBron was shouldering the load to the extreme of the Lakers...or the Cavaliers...and couldn't get it done?

It's always interesting what you can find in those long posts when people actually bother to read them. That was just an opinion piece by Shannon, as is 90% of the stuff in this thread so far.

[i]All i'm sayin tonight is....Silas claimed that kobe scoring 48 on seattle shows he's the best player...in return..I'm asking what does lebron scoring 51 mean in the same light?

I said it explains why he's the best player, I never said that single game proves he's the best player.

I said that he has come through with that kind of performance night in and night out. I've watched the Lakers play many, many times, and their games usually consists of mediocre or half-decent play while Kobe sits on the bench (though the second unit is playing well this year) after the first quarter, and then incredible changes of pace and usually success when he comes back on the floor.
He changes the game more than any player currently playing.

The biggest thing that I feel sets Kobe and LeBron apart in clutch performances, much like the Cleveland vs. Memphis and LA vs. Seattle games is defense. Kobe shut down the Sonics leading scorer with ease, he didn't allow Durant, who has a much, much longer wingspan than Kobe, to catch the ball down the stretch, and when he did catch the ball he was forced into making contested jump shots or awkward passes.

And Big Green, it seems like you're making painstakingly great efforts to validate your arguments with facts, so please, don't mar them with personal attacks.

And what does rebounds per game say about their rebounding prowess?

Let's reorder those guys by rebounding percentage, shall we?
Carlos Boozer - 18.6
Zach Randolph - 18.4
Emeka Okafor - 17.9
Kevin Garnett - 17.1
Antawn Jamison - 15.8
Shawn Marion - 15.0
Chris Bosh - 15.0
David West - 14.8
Udonis Haslem - 14.9
Lamar Odom - 13.9
Quote:

How many rebounds they grab on average, perhaps?

Shawn Marion is known as a very good rebounder. Lamar is behind him in this particular stat by 1.1%, is Lamar really that far behind? Lamar is a very good rebounder... he pulls down close to 10 every game. That's a good rebounder in my eyes.

Alright, so what does this common sense have to do with a comparison between LeBron and Kobe?

I'm sorta confused... What I was saying is that when you try to shoulder the load like that, you have to play extremely well for your team to win. If anyone in that situation couldn't get it done, their team loses. The thing is, Kobe takes on this role far more often than LeBron, which is really not a plus for Kobe in this LeBron vs. Kobe debate.

That's why I said unless Kobe's mindset changes, LeBron will take over very soon as Kobe deals with age.

Anyone claiming that kobe doesn't rebound as much as Lebron because of odom is a moron. In all the years kobe has been in the NBA he's been a scorer and defender...that IT. He doesn't look to rebound or challenge bigger men for rebounds and he certainly doesn't look to set up teammates with assists.

Anyone remember a short guy named charles barkley? Yea? Good...so stop using kobe's height and size vs LeBron's as an excuse for the rebouding desparity.

All I was saying was that Kobe plays with two very good rebounders - Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom. When you play with two guys like that, it's obviously harder to get out there and grab rebounds. I still think LeBron is the betterrebounder anyway, but it's not like Kobe doesn't rebound, he still grabs a decent amount of boards for a guard.

I'm sorta confused... What I was saying is that when you try to shoulder the load like that, you have to play extremely well for your team to win. If anyone in that situation couldn't get it done, their team loses. The thing is, Kobe takes on this role far more often than LeBron, which is really not a plus for Kobe in this LeBron vs. Kobe debate.

So you're saying, because you feel Kobe takes on a larger role, it's a negative in the debate? Darko Milicic vs. LeBron James. LeBron takes on a larger role every single game than Darko, chalk up another advantage for Darko in the debate.

How many rebounds they grab on average, perhaps?

But what is the value of knowing how many rebounds a player grabs per game? Especially compared to knowing when a rebound is available the likelihood of a player grabbing it.

Rebounds per game is ENTIRELY dependent on the minutes the player plays, and the number of rebounds available.

he pulls down close to 10 every game. That's a good rebounder in my eyes.

Ten is just an arbitrary value. It means nothing. Reggie Evans yanks down only 8 a game, would you seriously claim Lamar Odom is the superior rebounder? Even though Evans grabs 36% more of available rebounds?

So you're saying, because you feel Kobe takes on a larger role, it's a negative in the debate? LeBron takes on a larger role every single game than Darko, chalk up another advantage for Darko in the debate.

[

Not a positive does not necessarily mean a negative. Not having that argument at an advantage is not the same as having a disadvantage because of it. If Shannon meant it that way, fine. But that Darko analogy?

How else can it be seen than as a negative in the original context?

Overall, I think Kobe's the better player. LeBron is incredible though, and unless Kobe changes his mindset (ie. continuing to play as he has this season), it's only a matter of time before LeBron takes the crown. LeBron will always have the advantage mentally because while being less skilled overall, he very rarely hurts the team. Kobe is a great player, but when he hurts you, it does alot of damage - if he's shouldering the load to an extreme and can't get it done, the Lakers simply will not win.

he very rarely hurts the team.

Hmm...maybe by other factors like oh, I don't know, not passing as much. Being even a little bit more selfish leads to a drop in team morale. Embracing a larger role doesn't necessarily mean throw up a shot every time you touch the ball.

if he's shouldering the load to an extreme and can't get it done, the Lakers simply will not win.

That could just says it's a bigger risk for him. If he fails the task, the Lakers, won't win. Not if he shoulders the load to the extreme, they won't win.

If he wins every single 82 games single-handedly, then it would be no contest, would it?

I've lost all semblance of what the point of your posts are anymore.

What are you even talking about?

Geek Alert , Geek Alert

And Big Green, it seems like you're making painstakingly great efforts to validate your arguments with facts, so please, don't mar them with personal attacks.

Can someone say desperate?

I said that he has come through with that kind of performance night in and night out. I've watched the Lakers play many, many times, and their games usually consists of mediocre or half-decent play while Kobe sits on the bench (though the second unit is playing well this year) after the first quarter, and then incredible changes of pace and usually success when he comes back on the floor.
He changes the game more than any player currently playing.

...and how is any of that different from LeBron? Do you watch cav games? No? Then i'll tell you they went 0 - 6 when he was out with his injury.

The biggest thing that I feel sets Kobe and LeBron apart in clutch performances, much like the Cleveland vs. Memphis and LA vs. Seattle games is defense. Kobe shut down the Sonics leading scorer with ease, he didn't allow Durant, who has a much, much longer wingspan than Kobe, to catch the ball down the stretch, and when he did catch the ball he was forced into making contested jump shots or awkward passes.

...once again...how is that different from LeBron? He made crucial defense plays at the end. Read/watch the heighlights of the game. LeBron even "shut out" kobe earlier this season according to the lakers vs. cavs recap...so how is it any different? Are you even trying to back up any of your claims with facts?

And Big Green, it seems like you're making painstakingly great efforts to validate your arguments with facts, so please, don't mar them with personal attacks

proof or ban.

Lebron is doing EXACTLY the same thing Kobe was doing those years but is STILL considered the best player in the league.
...
Just to put it short. In past years, Kobe was a better individual performer in past years, Lebron was more successful. Lebron was considered the better player. This year, Lebron's been the better individual performer and Kobe's been more successful. Yet Lebron is STILL the better player. You choose, rank players by their team success or their individual skill.

You're assuming LeBron was ranked higher only by his team success in the past, and that he wasn't the superior individual player.

Back then if you asked most people why they thought Lebron was better than Kobe, the number 1 answer would have been because of Lebron's playoff success. Look at the analysts that said Lebron>Kobe. They will say two words. NBA FINALS.

Before this season...no analyst has ever ranked LeBron as being better than kobe. I challenge you to name one....or link to one. If you can't then please stop saying that shit.

There was an article on ESPN on Lebron vs Kobe. Some of the analysts picked Lebron over Kobe. There were several other articles on different sites claiming Lebron over Kobe, but I'm not going to look through and find them all.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/stor ... KobeLeBron

Here it is. At the end Hollinger says Lebron is a better player NOW.

Before a knumbnut tries to answer that, let me say that it's a rhetorical question...cause it doesn't mean shit. It only goes to show the stupidity of some people advocating kobe.

Anyone claiming that kobe doesn't rebound as much as Lebron because of odom is a moron

You successfully showcased your ability to use the quote function. Now if only i could figure out what it has to do with anything ..then my day will be complete. You also successfully avoided any of the questions I raised in my last post directed towards you. Your obvious forfeit means defeat.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=Roundtable-KobeLeBron

Here it is. At the end Hollinger says Lebron is a better player NOW.

Yes...but most of them are picking kobe in every category but leadership. Who's truly the underdog in this topic? My point is...at no time to this date has Lebron been considered by the masses in the basketball world to be the best player; even when he made the finals. That essentially makes LakersRule24's point moot. There is and was never any "hypocrisy" when it comes to the two of them.

So you're saying, because you feel Kobe takes on a larger role, it's a negative in the debate? LeBron takes on a larger role every single game than Darko, chalk up another advantage for Darko in the debate.

I'm not sure if you read my post right or if I got it across properly.

Kobe does not need to shoulder the load as he has done in the past - the days of needing ~40 points on his own for the Lakers to have a chance. He does not need to do that. Yet he does it anyway. It's his mindset.

If he could play as he has been this season (not a shot jacker, getting teammates involved, much more LeBron-like), the Lakers would be more successful, and that has been shown as they sit atop the Western Conference.

Kobe makes it harder for his team to win with his "do-it-all" mindset. LeBron does not.

If he could play as he has been this season (not a shot jacker, getting teammates involved, much more LeBron-like), the Lakers would be more successful, and that has been shown as they sit atop the Western Conference.

Kobe makes it harder for his team to win with his "do-it-all" mindset.

Kobe does not need to shoulder the load as he has done in the past - the days of needing ~40 points on his own for the Lakers to have a chance. He does not need to do that. Yet he does it anyway.

So does he do it or doesn't he?