Darko Watch

[Matthew]

Look, I don't mind hating on Darko, especially since he played really well in Orlando "proving" people wrong. (And to clarify past myths: I'm a Darko fan before I'm a Detroit fan...as people should know, I love players irrationally without regard and often contrary to any sort of facts.) But let's be completely honest here. The situation is much the same. Jermaine O'Neal did not show more glimpses than Darko. For one thing Jermaine played more during his first season than Darko did in all his time in Detroit.

Jermaine did not look utterly lost out there on the court. Darko looked like a clown at times in his time with detroit, bricking wide open dunkeds, shooting jumpers from the block that hit the side of the backboard etc.

Don't forget Darko was behind a host of quality other big men as well. Ben Wallace, Mehmet Okur, Elden Campbell, Antonio McDyess, Zeljko Rebraca and Rasheed Wallace were all quality big men and easily on par with what Portland was throwing out at the time.

Elden Campbell was nothing more then a statue when he was in Detroit. Zelly didn't do anything. Mehmet Okur was ok, but not irreplaceable. Rasheed was brought in to soften the blow of the mistake of drafting Darko ahead of Bosh or Melo.

Jermaine developed because he had the work ethic and the drive. If there's anything Darko lacks it's that. He's more athletic than Carmelo Anthony, has more skills, and is 7 foot, 260 pounds. Yet he hasn't put the game together as quickly. Doesn't seem to grasp his best areas. His problems are more mental than his actual abilities.

How can you say he is more athletic or more skilled exactly?

One of the worst picks in NBA history? Maybe not because of how good of player he is, but because Joe D sent him away, along with Arroyo for cap space that led to Nazr Mohammed because Ben Wallace walked. Had the Pistons known Wallace would leave (because Joe D has a time machine that must have been in for repairs the last six months) I bet Darko would still be in Detroit, which would reduce his "worst pickness."

If joe dumars gets the praise for his moves, then he must accept the responsability of his bad ones.

how do u get to the conclusion that he is one of the worst picks in nba history i can name at least 10 lottery picks that are worse than him and was picked

Looks like this is going to be a big post..

nikolov tshikilivlli(probably the worst lottery pick ever)

He hasn't done less then Darko..

sam bowie(don't say knee injuries derailed his career, that's just excuses)

Sam Bowie actually had a productive nba career, and in compairson to Darko, with the exception of Bowies last season, in each year he averaged a higher ppg then darko's highest.

ron mercer(in europe rite now sorry to fitzy)

Only tmac was drafted after him so it's not as bad as darko. Plus Mercer had some decent seasons.

adonal foyle(6yr/44mil? wat da fu**)

His contract has nothing to do with him being a bust pick.

michael olowakandi(best year a 11/8 for a #1pick) lol

11 and 8 is still better then anything Darko has produced...

rodney white(looks like jerry west can make mistakes also)

West never drafted him, it was dumars, and at the 9th pick you cant compare him to being a number 2 pick in terms of a bust.

len bias(died from overdose)
jay williams(didn't prove shit and got in a moto accident)

Impossible to predict.

dermarr johnson(don't know much about him except he also got into an accident)

it looks like you dont know much about any of the players you listed. It's also interesting how you are quick to call marvin williams a bust yet he averaged nearly double the points and rebounds that darko did in this season alone, and this is williams rookie season and this is what darkos 3rd season. Skilled my ass.

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject:
benji wrote:

Jermaine developed because he had the work ethic and the drive. If there's anything Darko lacks it's that. He's more athletic than Carmelo Anthony, has more skills, and is 7 foot, 260 pounds. Yet he hasn't put the game together as quickly. Doesn't seem to grasp his best areas. His problems are more mental than his actual abilities.

I don't think his work ethic (that is, working on his game) has ever been a problem. If anything, his international and NBA coaches and teammates have always said Darko works hard and impresses them in practice. The reason why he didn't get playing time was always the same - he didn't play hard in the time he got (mostly garbage minutes), which was something he needed to get past by. But he did have 3 quality big men in front of him (Wallaces and either Okur or Mcdyess) and the team needed to win, so obviously they weren't able to afford to give him anything other than garbage minutes and Darko felt insulted. Is having pride and an ego a sin? Yes, in today's NBA it is. He should've accepted the position and fight for every minute. He played great in the preseason and at the start of the regular season, but then Saunders got scared and only played him in garbage time and Darko became his old, passive self. But I understand him, because I know it was a wrong situation for him and that that shouldn't be an indicator of his 'work ethic'. From the games I watched this summer, he showed only passion, hard work, he goes for every rebound and is the featured player of his team. This guy just turned 21 years of age. If being passive in the meaningless garbage time is his only serious sign of being immature, isn't that something you can easily overlook?

lol, passiveness? I think you mean he sulked. Pride is proving people wrong, not playing soft and looking lost becuase a starting spot wasn't reserved for you.

[Fenix]

He never demanded starting spot or anything like that. All he wanted - which he publically said - was 10 minutes per game for his game to develop. He nevet got that, all he got are garbage minutes. To sulk when you perform and impress in practice, work hard and then your coach doesn't play you for over two years - I think that's a pretty good reason for sulking.

[Matthew]

You have to earn your minutes, you cant just "want" 10 minutes to develop. Imagine if Iverson came out and said "I want to play both guard positions to average 50 ppg" and then sulked becuase no coach would give it to him. Would you condone that as well? Basketball is a mans game, and there are no reasons for sulking.

[Fenix]

And how exactly do you earn those minutes? By working hard? By having good practices? What exactly does one have to do to 'earn' playing time? You have to start somewhere and the whole problem is - Darko never started anywhere. Imagine what would happen if Bogut had to 'earn' the minutes he got. If his coach played Gadzuric, Joe Smith, Magloire and Kukoc in front of him. If he never got up off the bench for the first half of the year in the League (which is what happened with Darko) and then he had to 'prove' himself through garbage time? He'd sulk, he'd go fucking crazy. Orlando certainly proved that Darko can and will produce as a third big man. He'll be quiet, he'll defend and do everything that is needed to win - he was a crucial part of Orlando's late season revival. He looked completely different than garbage-time Darko. He was earning every minute he got with defense, unselfish passes and .500 shooting from the field. I'll repeat - he was earning his playing time with producing in meaningful minutes that were given to him. The problem is - he never even got the minutes to produce in Detroit.

[Matthew]

What does this have to do with bogut? Is it becuase he is an aussie and i'm australian and you expect me to be biased towards him in a similar way you are to darko? But using your comparison, Bogut did indeed have to earn his starting spot. He began the season on the bench and in the limited minutes he got he made an impact. Had he gone the darko route and sulked about not getting playing time, there is no way he would have been starting ahead of Joe Smith later in the season.

The harsh reality for Darko is the level of talent taken behind him. Melo, Bosh, Wade.. even Hinrich, David West and Josh Howard and Boris Diaw should have been taken ahead of him. A 30 game stint of 7.8 ppg and 2.5 rpg doesn't mean anything in the arguement of whether he was a bad selection at number 2.

[Fenix]

It was 7.6ppg and 4.1rpg and I brough Bogut up because he's a big man, brought in a similar situation than Darko, although with less superior players. And you completely proved my point - Bogut started the season with playing off the bench and making the most with the minutes he got (which was what - 20+ mpg?). Darko didn't get any meaningful minutes. That's the big difference. And the fact is - Darko is very skilled and just turned 21. JO was 22, 23 when he first got to the Pacers. He's younger than all of the aforementioned players. To say he's a bust or that David West is better than him is an overreaction to him being benched by the Pistons. Tskikitsvishili never produced, he never proved he can be a player in this League, not during the regular season nor in international play. Darko got to Orlando and became one of the best defensive bigs around and a very servicable offensive player. He got what he wanted - a chance to prove himself. I think that's a pretty great start.

[J@3]

And you completely proved my point - Bogut started the season with playing off the bench and making the most with the minutes he got (which was what - 20+ mpg?). Darko didn't get any meaningful minutes. That's the big difference.

Not quite. Bogut started the season in the starting 5 and only played five games off the bench all season (about 6 games in). The original idea was for him to come off the bench behind Joe Smith, but Smith was injured and not ready to be starting/playing so many minutes.

[Fenix]

Oh, so didn't have to earn playing time? Whatever, I claim that the whole Darko tragedy is Larry Brown's fault. He benched his has just like he benched Lebron and Anthony in the Olympics. Then came Saunders and he was too scared to develop young talent, because he wanted to win as much as possibly and wanted to fuck up with teams chemistry by playing the bigs less than they deserve (the whole 'Mcdyess is our 6th starter' thing) and he couldn't afford to play Darko, so he had to be traded to make the room for resigning Ben (which we all know how that turned out). The point is - the whole 'Darko has an attitude' thing is the result of Larry Brown benching him for two years, not him being a headcase like some claimed him to be. He always worked hard, did his job in practices and didn't rape any dogs.

[Metsis]

What does this have to do with bogut? Is it becuase he is an aussie and i'm australian and you expect me to be biased towards him in a similar way you are to darko? But using your comparison, Bogut did indeed have to earn his starting spot. He began the season on the bench and in the limited minutes he got he made an impact. Had he gone the darko route and sulked about not getting playing time, there is no way he would have been starting ahead of Joe Smith later in the season.

The harsh reality for Darko is the level of talent taken behind him. Melo, Bosh, Wade.. even Hinrich, David West and Josh Howard and Boris Diaw should have been taken ahead of him. A 30 game stint of 7.8 ppg and 2.5 rpg doesn't mean anything in the arguement of whether he was a bad selection at number 2.

Oh Matthew... You are so on the wrong end of things... It's not like Detroit didn't have the opportunity to play Darko... And it certainly seems that it isn't because he can't play. He can certainly play on the NBA level. He just NEVER GOT A CHANCE! He never had a chance and neither Larry Brown or Flip Saunders were willing to put him on the floor. The kids are raw when they come in at 18 year age... The kids need to play some minutes to get their feet wet and get a feel for the game and thus try to be productive. If the only minutes you get is the last two minutes of a game that has already been decided and are expected to show your stuff you are set up for failure...

I stress that had Darko even been the fourth big guy on Detroit rotation last couple of seasons he would have shown his stuff. If he got the 10mpg he would have shown that he can at least get some blocks and play team offense and defense even though he wouldn't have done anything too spectacular...

Darko has the potential... Darko has the size and athleticism to do things and he apparently does have some moves that he can pull in the NBA. He just never had a chance... Some guys end up like this... In a "what if" situation... For example Pau Gasol... The powerforward from Spain that also started his career on the bench playing behind Stromile Swift. After 5-10 games (I can't remember exactly) Stro got hurt and couldn't play and it was ALL GASOL after that... Wonder if Gasol would be the player he is today had Stro never gotten injured and Pau never would have had that chance to start and really show his stuff as a starter...

Had one of the Wallaces been injured and had Darko even gotten the third stringer role, he could have flourished in Detroit and the trade to Orlando would have never happened... Had Dumars said that let's use Darko as a backup to Wallaces, he's ready for it, he might have improved in strides and would have a better game than today...

If you are known as the "human victory cigar" and get to play total garbage minutes, you would sulk... Anyone would. Atleast if it just went on and on... 2½ seasons is a long time to wait to get on the court for even a 10 mpg role... Its actually amazing that Darko didn't totally bust when he got to Orlando... His spirits were probably that low...

And it cannot be refuted that right now, he is the man for his national team... A leader... This will do wonders to any player at any time...

Right now, Darko knows that he has a chance to play a meaningful role next season in the NBA. He knows that playing well on the national stage, he can show his stuff and guarrantee a position in the Orlando rotation, if not even a starter slot... He finally has something to look forward to... He finally has a light at the end of that tunnel... Next season we will see.

We are yet to see the real Darko step up... We will know a whole lot more of him as a player come Christmas... So stop hammering the guy...

[J@3]

Man are you Euro's easily impressed or what.

Also, is there some TV station in Europe that carries all of the Pistons training sessions or something? Because every second European I see posting about Darko seems to talk about how great he was in training...

[---]

IMO if Darko was really as great as anyone says, he would of been given the minutes. I understand he had larry brown as his coach and larry is crazy... but he would of been given his minutes if he was this 'wonderkid' everyone makes him out to be. everytime i saw him play he just didnt lok like a future superstar, he wasnt very good at all when given the minutes. i do think that darko will eventually be a solid nba player, but i dont think he will ever be able to live up to that number 2 spot.

[Fenix]

Darko has 20 against Slovenia (Nesterovic 16, Brezec 6). Slovenia wins, 78:76.

[benji]

Jermaine did not look utterly lost out there on the court. Darko looked like a clown at times in his time with detroit, bricking wide open dunkeds, shooting jumpers from the block that hit the side of the backboard etc.
Elden Campbell was nothing more then a statue when he was in Detroit. Zelly didn't do anything. Mehmet Okur was ok, but not irreplaceable. Rasheed was brought in to soften the blow of the mistake of drafting Darko ahead of Bosh or Melo.
How can you say he is more athletic or more skilled exactly?

O'Neal was the same way in Portland if you remember. Infact, he still gets himself stuck too far over on the baseline and takes those jumpers. Not that that is relevant in anyway. Portland gave up on him because they didn't see him ever developing.

Brown started Zeljko and Campbell at the beginning of the year before Rebraca had his heart condition. And Campbell was far more than a statue in the Finals. Okur was the teams second best offensive player. Yeah, Sheed came in, maybe not to soften the "blow" of the draft "mistake" but maybe to add a championship piece. You can still send Sura, Atkins and Rebraca for Wallace and James, even if Anthony or Bosh is sitting on your bench instead of Darko.

Well, Darko runs faster, jumps higher and is stronger than Anthony based on pre-draft workouts. Darko also has a more balanced default skill set, that includes defense and passing.

Based on how Brown treated him at the Olympics and how he acts, one could fathom having a conversation where we're asking why the Pistons didn't take Darko or Bosh over Anthony.

It's all hypothetical and a waste of time to lament the past. Around the 2004 Draft people were bashing Orlando for taking Howard over Okafor. We could spend hours bashing Jordan for taking Kwame over Brand and Gasol. But that's all in the past. This is a Darko fan thread, it's no different from the Lakers or Bulls or whatever fan threads that are full of hyperbole and irrational love.

In the direct wake of the Darko selection the Pistons won one title and came within inches of another. I'd say the pick worked just fine. I'd also say the Pistons gave up on him too early...like so many teams with Gooden, Portland with O'Neal, the Bulls with their all-star front line, etc.

[kinokong]

matthew, at least 4 of the players that i listed have done far less than darko tssikivili, jay williams, len bias, and dermarr johnson. you can say that bias and williams are impossible to predict but the fact that they have done absolutely nothing makes them a bust... dermarr johnson also got into an accident and he had a wide open spot at the nuggets and he couldn't even take the starting job after voshon lenard went down. and tell me a season when tshikilivli averaged more than darko did after he went to orlando... i can't even find his player profile on nba.com... also when i said that jerry west can also make mistakes, im referring to the comments he made about white before the draft.... if i remember correctly, he said something along the lines about white being the best player in the draft, but all he has done is picked up his ass out of the nba. some of the other players that i have listed have done more than darko but after looking at some lists ill name some more
trajan langdon
william avery
Aleksandar Radojevic
rafael arujo
luke jackson
rashad mccants
the point is it is too early to tell whether darko truly is the worst pick in the history of the draft... according to the summer international competition he is averaging pretty good numbers... the only way we'll find out is to see how he performs in the nba this season.... he should get plenty of playing time because he has his fitness all ready this season and the team is a young team... if he averages less that 14/7/2 ill call him a bust

[Metsis]

The boy is only 20 or 21 years old... That's as young as the youngest rookies are this season. So in fact if he still isn't on top of his game, he can't be called a bust. Darko that is...

The fact that he has barely seen the court just makes that impossible... When he gets his chance (next season), then we can see where the man truly is...

The problem with all you gripers and haters is that you can't judge a guy if he hasn't had a chance... Most of the other players recently mentioned in this thread have had they chance, but Darko has not... If Darko had at one point of time played for a 10 game stretch for 15 minutes per game and had played badly, then I could see where all you haters are coming from.

And to talk about irrational love... You hater boys seem so in love with Dumars that you cannot wrap your minds around the fact that Joe did make a mistake when he traded Darko...

[J@3]

He also made a mistake by drafting him though. I don't even like Dumars.

[Metsis]

Its kind of funny that both are considered a mistake... By some... I kind of think so too. He could have picked a guy who was more ready to contribute for the team, but instead he took the big potential guy from Europe... And then his patience ran out because the more ready guys were doing too good and Darko was still developing...

[J@3]

That's true, it is a unique situation. Obviously now with Ben Wallace gone the Pistons could really use Darko in some way/shape/form or at least received more for him from Orlando, but at the same time taking him over guys like Wade/Bosh/Carmelo was probably not the best move.

[The X]

in hindsight, yeah, it wasn't a good pick by Dumars....but I think even worse than his pick, was giving up on him & getting too little in return....

many people might say Bosh would've been the right pick, but Bosh was also considered a little bit of a stretch at 4....many thought while he had the chance to be a good pro, it was too weak & would take quite a few years to develop....they were wrong as Bosh has proved to be the complete opposite....

Wade was a guy that I loved at Marquette, but if Miami hadn't of picked him at 5, he could've conceivably fell to around the No. 10 spot....Wade was considered an undersized SG....too small & not a good enough shooter for SG....and not enough lead guard skills to play PG....

both guys proved everyone wrong....these were 2 guys that proved that you don't have to be the right height or weight to succeed....

back to the story, I still don't mind the Darko pick at No. 2....the Pistons didn't need a SF & Melo might not have been the best fit....the way it worked out, they made a trade for Sheed & got a title that season....so you can't fault that....had they not given up on him, he'd be their 6th man at worst this season (with Sheed & Dice starting)....

all this being said, in hindsight, either Bosh or Wade (with me leaning towards Bosh) would've been the best pick....

[Matt]

either Bosh or Wade (with me leaning towards Bosh) would've been the best pick....

Wade wouldn't be the player he is today though...he'd be backup up Hamilton.

About PT....let's look @ Al Harrington.....he apparently never "earned" PT in Indiana, then he gets himself to Atlanta and gets given minutes by default. 2yrs of seasoning, being able to make mistakes and learn through them have turned him into a pretty good player.

That's what young guys need, playing time. Otherwise, kids that young will struggle.

[axare]

Phillips Cup was funny...Darko made alot of jokes on court, ignorant singapore fans went to Marc Gasol for signature on the first day thinking that he is Pau Gasol...

The argentinians didnt sign any autograph...i recieved three autographs on this event...Pau Gasol, Jose Calderon and Navarro....who is the MVP...Spain won the Phillips Cup

[Metsis]

either Bosh or Wade (with me leaning towards Bosh) would've been the best pick....

Wade wouldn't be the player he is today though...he'd be backup up Hamilton.

About PT....let's look @ Al Harrington.....he apparently never "earned" PT in Indiana, then he gets himself to Atlanta and gets given minutes by default. 2yrs of seasoning, being able to make mistakes and learn through them have turned him into a pretty good player.

That's what young guys need, playing time. Otherwise, kids that young will struggle.

Any and all PT is needed as a rookie... It's really hard to sit there for an hour and then get in the game and you are immediatly expected to excel... That is just setting someone up to fail.

We all know how bad person Larry Brown is... He is a good coach, but something else can be said about his people skills. Maybe Larry Brown was trying to draft some other player, but Dumars pulled the trigger on Darko and Larry Brown rebelled against the decision by not playing him... Who knows these things? After last seasons fiasco with NYK, this is not such an impossible thought...

But raw guys need time to get their feet wet and get comfortable on the court and get a feel for the NBA game, if they are ever going to succeed. The rookies need to learn the game and nothing teaches better than actually playing the game and decent playing time.

And Darko's minutes can be counted with one hand fingers while he was in Detroit... All three years in together...

[The X]

either Bosh or Wade (with me leaning towards Bosh) would've been the best pick....

Wade wouldn't be the player he is today though...he'd be backup up Hamilton.

I don't know about that....if the Pistons had drafted him, I could see a smaller lineup with Hamilton playing at SF beside Wade at SG....Prince would come off bench....Prince would've never got the chance to shine as much as he had, had the Pistons drafted Wade or Melo....so as you can see, there's always two sides to every coin....

I think Wade would've been a backup to start season & a useful 6th man in playoff run if he had of developed, & then progressed....Wade was a seasoned All-American junior who was ready to make an impact so I think he would've made an impact of some sort wherever he went....probably not to the same extent or as quickly, but we could also say the same about Jordan....it's too hard to know though as fate didn't twist that way....and there was no way in hell that the Pistons were taking an undersized SG at 2 when they already had Billups & Hamilton in the backcourt, so I guess the discussion is a mute point....the only realistic alternatives to Darko were Melo & Bosh (in hindsight, as Melo was the only REAL other option at the time)....

[kinokong]

back in 2003 other than lebron melo was considered the best draft pick but all these scouts had darko with the most potential.... also the pistons probably didn't want to screw up their chemistry right after coming off a championship so they probably decided to take a project and develop him slowly so he could one day supplant the wallaces. also the pistons were a team-first team so im not sure how the shoot happy anthony would have fit into their schemes.... and even if wade or anyone else had arrived im not sure brown would have played them judging by the way he kept their asses on the bench in the 2004 olympics... so in reality dumars' biggest mistake is not keeping milicic.... he isn't the defensive machine that wallace is but he is undeniably more defensive oriented and talented than nazr mohammed....

[Metsis]

back in 2003 other than lebron melo was considered the best draft pick but all these scouts had darko with the most potential.... also the pistons probably didn't want to screw up their chemistry right after coming off a championship so they probably decided to take a project and develop him slowly so he could one day supplant the wallaces. also the pistons were a team-first team so im not sure how the shoot happy anthony would have fit into their schemes.... and even if wade or anyone else had arrived im not sure brown would have played them judging by the way he kept their asses on the bench in the 2004 olympics... so in reality dumars' biggest mistake is not keeping milicic.... he isn't the defensive machine that wallace is but he is undeniably more defensive oriented and talented than nazr mohammed....

You're wrong boy... Darko has a championship with the pistons in 2004... Or was he on the playoff roster???

It was after Darko that they won the championship... But the team did look pretty tight back then and Dumars didn't want to mess with that and they did win a title after that...

Getting rid of Darko and basically giving up on Darko at the age 21 is way too early...