Spirit of '99: 2011 Lockout Discussion

[Patr1ck]

Replacement players! Come on!! They have a right to run a business, right? Lockout or no lockout. Just have a retirement league or something where all the 40+ players play once a week on ABC.

[shadowgrin]

Replacement players! Come on!! They have a right to run a business, right? Lockout or no lockout. Just have a retirement league or something where all the 40+ players play once a week on ABC.

The league wants the current contracts to be rendered null by the court, just to be sure they don't have any financial obligations left so they could start paying replacements!
benji and I had a short discussion about that. He figured that the owners and active players won't have a problem with it since most of the 'ringless' players would come out of retirement and be in it like Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Miller, and others just to get that ring. The current players would be jerks if they oppose that plan.

[Patr1ck]

That's a great idea! A league of non-ring having ringers.

[Panco]

In case the season is cancelled, what about the Draft? Is there going to be one? What about the order of picks? Completely random or based on last years results?

[Patr1ck]

I think the draft could be canceled, too.

What about the drafted rookies this past summer? Can they go back and play another year of college ball?

[benji]

They were discussing copying how the NHL did it after their missed season.

And no, the drafted rookies lost their eligibility before the draft even happened if they didn't pull out by whatever date it was.

[Andrew]

No further talks have been scheduled. Not surprising given the current circumstances but at the same time, a sign of how it came to this point. Talks should've been more frequent or plans like dissolving the union should've been put into place long before now.

[Nick]

Talks should've been more frequent or plans like dissolving the union should've been put into place long before now.

Yeah it's fucked, i hate the NBA.

Seriously

[koberulz]

I love that people are getting so upset about this. I haven't even noticed. And yes, I'm far more into the NBL than I have been since I started following the NBA, but with games only being Friday-Sunday it's not as though it takes up a ton of time. Most of the basketball I've watched this 'season' has been on DVD. The NBA will be back when it's back, no sooner, and I don't see any sense in worrying about it all that much.

http://www.asternwarning.com/2011111210 ... ckout.html

[Nick]

Wise words.

[Andrew]

I guess when it comes down to it we all have different levels of, and approaches to, our NBA fanaticism.

In any case, great read from Bill Simmons on the lockout: Business Vs. Personal

I reckon he's hit the nail on the head.

[NovU]

Long but great read on lockout, Andrew. Great article that tells how we got to this point.

While the most casual fans and some of basketball geeks have been blaming the NBAPA, some of us(Andrew, benji, me, etc.) knew the players were being cornered and Stern's owners' approach just wasn't right or faithful. While players' greed was heavily focused, people forgot to see where the real problem lies. Bill Simmon's write up has some good points on principle of problem, how the relationship between players and Stern got spoiled and why it's become personal.

I was hoping for a half season but seems like we won't have one now.

[Nick]

Certainly was a great read.

[Patr1ck]

Excellent article. I was sided with the owners at first and thought the issues were primarily financial. The article pointed out a lot of other issues that most fans have been aware of, but probably never put together.

[Mavs4Life]

The Mavs may never play on Christmas . So, now the NBA will most likely become only, the 2nd leauge to lose a full season, am I correct?

[JoeJames]

The Mavs may never play on Christmas . So, now the NBA will most likely become only, the 2nd leauge to lose a full season, am I correct?

And even worse, the Mavs won't rise up their flag as 2011 NBA Champs

[koberulz]

I guess when it comes down to it we all have different levels of, and approaches to, our NBA fanaticism.

This is true, and if I hadn't gone on my NBL binge and found OzHoops and all those 90s game tapes, I'd probably be more bothered by it than I am. That said, the people who are acting as though the season being canceled is the end of the world, of the owners and players have some sort of obligation to them to get the season started need to calm the fuck down already.

[Andrew]

While the most casual fans and some of basketball geeks have been blaming the NBAPA, some of us(Andrew, benji, me, etc.) knew the players were being cornered and Stern's owners' approach just wasn't right or faithful. While players' greed was heavily focused, people forgot to see where the real problem lies. Bill Simmon's write up has some good points on principle of problem, how the relationship between players and Stern got spoiled and why it's become personal.

I think a lot of people have been calling the owners greedy as well. When it comes to fans taking one side or the other, it seems fairly evenly split when it comes to those who blame the "greedy spoiled players" and those who blame the "greedy tyrannical owners". As I said before and Bill Simmons explains far more eloquently and in detail, there's blame all around as far as how the lockout came about, how the negotiations were carried out and ultimately fell apart and where the league goes from here. The owners wanted a humiliating victory over the players, the players had few counter-proposals except "We don't want to go below 53% on BRI" and "We don't like that offer". Both sides have a point, yet are missing the point at the same time. I don't buy either side as a victim in all this.

This is true, and if I hadn't gone on my NBL binge and found OzHoops and all those 90s game tapes, I'd probably be more bothered by it than I am. That said, the people who are acting as though the season being canceled is the end of the world, of the owners and players have some sort of obligation to them to get the season started need to calm the fuck down already.

As big a fan as I am of basketball and the NBA in particular, I certainly agree. Anyone who acts like it's the end of the world definitely needs to get their priorities in order. I think in some cases though, the passion that sports fans have makes their words sound a lot stronger than they are; at the end of the day they do have things in perspective but when they talk sports, it does sound like they're talking about matters of life or death. Of course, there certainly are crazies that do take things too far, way beyond simply being disappointed at the turn of events.

[NovU]

While the most casual fans and some of basketball geeks have been blaming the NBAPA, some of us(Andrew, benji, me, etc.) knew the players were being cornered and Stern's owners' approach just wasn't right or faithful. While players' greed was heavily focused, people forgot to see where the real problem lies. Bill Simmon's write up has some good points on principle of problem, how the relationship between players and Stern got spoiled and why it's become personal.

I think a lot of people have been calling the owners greedy as well. When it comes to fans taking one side or the other, it seems fairly evenly split when it comes to those who blame the "greedy spoiled players" and those who blame the "greedy tyrannical owners". As I said before and Bill Simmons explains far more eloquently and in detail, there's blame all around as far as how the lockout came about, how the negotiations were carried out and ultimately fell apart and where the league goes from here. The owners wanted a humiliating victory over the players, the players had few counter-proposals except "We don't want to go below 53% on BRI" and "We don't like that offer". Both sides have a point, yet are missing the point at the same time. I don't buy either side as a victim in all this.

Perhaps. But my experience in other forums/yahoo articles/youtube told a different story. There was a widely shared notion that players are the definite greedy bastards who are vastly being overpaid(which is true), thus should backdown and deserve to be hated. Of course there were some wise ones but couldn't say majority but a few. I pointed out some of owners' fault in the reply on Yahoo article and got 12 dislikes and 2 likes or something.

Anyways, I'd say there's more anger towards the players by more people despite not knowing the circumstances too well.

[kAmilli LakeShow]

Ow, you can't even go to a Russian site Slamdunk.ru and try to defend the players. Every post gets thumbed down so much it drowns like Titanic. Russian people are such racists too XD

[benji]

It's not really the owners fault. Their only option out is selling the franchise, and that only works if you can get more than you put in. If you can't...the Hornets.

We've been over this. You almost HAVE to overpay players. If the Bulls don't overpay Boozer, Brewer and Korver, how much less money do they make this year? Even if they still could build a contender within two or three years? And with a lockout looming? And who knows what could happen? The Rockets franchise imploded just two years ago due to an injury in the very same season they finally escaped the first round. Orlando, just three years after losing the best center of the three point era signed the two of the ten best SFs to watch half the investment go up in smoke and the other have to be stupidly traded (along with Gooden and Varejao for Battie) the same year they added Dwight, and have needed a guy who can put up 20 shots in a game ever since. (And way overpaid to get their way back to the Finals after 14 years.) Cuban has spent billions, it got him two Heat matchups in the Finals that he's split and a decade of Dirk being the biggest choker in league history.

Even if you're smart, you won't keep a low payroll and your depth long as America's Team, the 2004 Pistons found out.

Why wouldn't the owners go for blood? The players were fucked from the start. They were in fucked in 1999, fucked in 2005 and since Billy Hunter and Derek Fisher are running things were fucked yet again in 2011. There was no reason not to think they could come in, offer something absurd and then "accept" down to 53% with other changes or something better when the players had to eventually cave.

Their miscalculations were that nobody expected:
1. That players were willing to go overseas, and give up on the season.
2. That the young players were willing to get behind the veterans who have absolutely zero skin in the game when they became irrational and took it as apparently some major issue of pride and racism.

I'm pretty sure the union didn't expect any of this and that's why they've failed so bad. They figured they'd go down to Sept. 15th or whenever it was that was the "drop dead date" and sell everyone on some kind of 52/48 compromise. And then they got blind sided and it exposed how weak and powerless the union is. That's why they had to call in the big guns now, when they actually have to do their jobs.

Hunter, Fisher, and the exec committee went in and expected to hammer out a deal with the owners.

And the membership actually fucked them.

It's beautiful. A union actually got steamrolled out of nowhere by its members. And the members took over the negotiations.

I don't buy the Stern out of date shit, that's Simmons realizing Stern isn't as powerful as he thought and trying to pretend it wasn't his misperception that was wrong, it was Stern somehow for not living up to Simmons' demand that he's some kind of evil dictator. Stern has run the new blood fine, what he probably didn't expect was that new NEW blood like Jordan and the Russian would team up with the other destitute franchises and play insane hard ball. For everything Cuban says, he and Stern haven't been that far apart on the business side of things.

Speaking of Jordan.

Really.

How in the FUCK does Simmons spend nothing more than a sentence on him? REALLY? You're writing the story of this Lockout battle and that's it? You talk about Pierce's DESIRE TO WIN and that's it?

When Jordan came in willing to deal, but then decided after it was shot down that no, us small market teams are going to win. I ALWAYS WIN. WE'RE WINNING.

And then the players came in and saw Jordan and were all excited and...



Jordan said 37% BRI.

And they lashed out about how an owner was somehow betraying them, his legacy was dying with modern players in a flash.

And you ignore it?

This is a guy who dominated one CBA when he demanded he could get paid $30+ million a year. And dominated another with his absence when everyone wanted to chase Jordan money.

And he said 37%.

Players were figuratively dying on twitter. Their childhood dreams and aspirations were being vaporized with the cold hard reality of life.

And we're supposed to care about Pierce? (Notice that Simmons never mentions KG who went off on the players multiple times this year.)

And we're supposed to care about Kobe? (Who has never been anything BUT passive aggressive. You think he's not trying to figure out exactly when he can bolt to Italy to play for $50 million or somehow "save" the league?)

Isn't the great "betrayal" angle here all about Jordan? Isn't THAT the story that gets you fifty million hits in a day?

Russian people are such racists too XD

Do we have some threads for you!

[Andrew]

Speaking of players heading overseas, Kevin Love has decided against playing in Turkey and JR Smith suffered a knee injury.

phpBB [video]

[bowdown]

Sucks for JR Smith. Another reason why free agents wish this lockout wouldnt be this way. Reality is they have to stay in some sort of shape and the longer they dont recieve a contract from NBA the more chance they will suffer a major injury in their practice of overseas game limiting their chance at lucrative deal in NBA

[NovU]

Some good points by benji.

I realize the fault are on both sides but can't shake off the feeling that Stern needed to do a better job mediating. The players were offended obviously in Stern's leadership and now it's personal which will get them nowhere.

[benji]

Metta WorldPeace
Come on Jordan!!
Bring it. One on one. I win lockout over. I'll beat u with my eyes closed and a in and out burger in my right hand!!