Gary payton goingt to LA

When the Lakers are facing the Nets next year and if it comes down to the last possession for New Jersey, Payton will stop Kidd.

Glove, let me make a small correction there, even if we look at it as if Fisher & Parker stopped Kidd in both finals, the reality is that Kidd doesn't need anyone to stop him, he stops himself

Kidd's FG% has always been a terrible note in his profile.

I'm not making up the triangle offense, and I'm not making up the fact that the Lakers using it...the main reason I've stayed focused on the triangle is because that's exactly the reason that I give for Payton not fitting into the Lakers offense...here's some links, explaining the triangle offense to you...and all mention the Lakers.

http://www.bbhighway.com/Talk/Coaching_ ... _intro.asp

http://espn.go.com/ncb/2003/0128/1499926.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/2000 ... lakers.htm
Here's a quote from this site (while not professional and slightly dated, it's still accurate):

The Lakers are now running 'Tex' Winter's triangle offense, and in it Phil Jackson has no place for point guards, both guards are supposed to be equal and share backcourt responsibility. Jackson likes to run a three guard rotation, but has altered that to make Fisher the designated small fast point guard stopper of the bench. In theory this spot should be filled with Kobe playing close to a full 48 minutes and two other 'Big Guards' spelling Kobe and splitting the other position.

One more...

http://www.cybersportsusa.com/hooptactics/triangle.asp

Now, the triangle offense that the Lakers use does not have a true point guard. The guards have equal ball handling ability, but Kobe will handle the ball more simply because he's already been in the system for four years, and he's also the second option on the team. Every article says the triangle is a two man game - like I was saying - and those two men are Shaq and Kobe, which means that Malone and Payton have dimished roles - especially Payton, who is used to bringing the ball up the court nearly every time. Malone will fit well, but Payton will be the odd man out...which is why his numbers will be nowhere near 15 points and 'over 7 assists'...yeah, right, Payton averaging over 7 apg in the triangle ...it could happen, but that's as likely as the Raptors trading VC for Kobe and Shaq....

Shane, the Triangle Offense, everyone knows you are not making up all this BS & I'm not saying you are wrong in relation to that, all I'm telling you is this is different. The Triangle offense is not designed for any True Center as well and the main player in the Lakers is a Center, that's something I've been telling you the whole week and it seems to me you don't get it.

How comes the Triangle works for Shaq if it's not designed for him? But let's wait, that's all we can do since the season is not there and Payton is not even a Laker.

I have a little note here from the Last "true" PG who was in the Lakers.

Lindsey year before heading to LA (in Milw): 24 Mins pg, 2.7 assists pg.
Lindsey only year as a Laker: 19 Mins pg, 1.5 assists pg.

You see the difference, he played 5 more mins with the Bucks and gave only 1 assist more per game, with the Lakers his points average went down obviously but his assists in relation to the mins played was not that huge.

yeah, right, Payton averaging over 7 apg in the triangle

First, I'm not saying that Payton is going to score a lot per game, that's the first thing, I said the team will have to share 100 for all of them since there were only a few scoring over 100 per night last season, his numbers will drop obviously.

However I do consider the assists won't go down like you are expecting. Averaging 7 apg like you stated is not what I'm expecting since he averaged 8 last season, so expecting him to average 7 will be like saying he will keep getting all his assists. 6 per game will be more than enough (that's what I told you before), and I wouldn't call that dramatically since it's obvious he has to share the ball now.

Second, Payton is a much better PG than this Hunter and plays a much better and organized game (If Van Exel were organized his assists would be over 10 per game).

Last season the Lakers started playing more out of the triangle and didn't run it as often. I expect them to run it even less in this upcoming season ...

Just like I said, Phil Jackson is not that stupid. He is not going to cut Payton out of the offence by running the triangle, sure they will still run it, but with nowhere near the regularity as the past few seasons. They now have two more options on offence, either one could have 20+ in any game, they are not going to have to run the triangle to score. They can play whatever freakin' offence they want, there aren't going to have trouble putting points on the board. Maybe you should think of something else that is going to stop the Lakers, because the triangle isn't going to be it.

Shane, the Triangle Offense, everyone knows you are not making up all this BS & I'm not saying you are wrong in relation to that, all I'm telling you is this is different. The Triangle offense is not designed for any True Center as well and the main player in the Lakers is a Center, that's something I've been telling you the whole week and it seems to me you don't get it.

It's made for the two man game...position doesn't matter....as for the making up, why do you keep calling it 'my' triangle offense? It's not mine, and the Lakers run it...so why were you arguing that point with me?

How comes the Triangle works for Shaq if it's not designed for him? But let's wait, that's all we can do since the season is not there and Payton is not even a Laker.

2 man game...any two players on the court...2 guys...shaq's one, kobe's the other....sheesh...

I have a little note here from the Last "true" PG who was in the Lakers.

Lindsey year before heading to LA (in Milw): 24 Mins pg, 2.7 assists pg.
Lindsey only year as a Laker: 19 Mins pg, 1.5 assists pg.

LOL, come on, Lindsay Hunter a true point guard? He's a shooting guard that's 6'2...I think his best year for assists was in Detroit and that was like 4 a game...Derek Fisher's a better point guard than Hunter....and his assists went down! Which is what I'm saying, right? Point guard's assists go down in the triangle? Yes, yes they do, and you proved it for me...albeit with a horrible example...

You see the difference, he played 5 more mins with the Bucks and gave only 1 assist more per game, with the Lakers his points average went down obviously but his assists in relation to the mins played was not that huge.

Hunter was a defensive point guard who shots lots of threes...which, oddly enough, fits into the triangle perfectly....and he's not a passer and he played off the bench behind Cassell and Allen, and they also had Rafer Alston at the time he was in Milwaukee, so they split time at the point...not that much, but they did...

First, I'm not saying that Payton is going to score a lot per game, that's the first thing, I said the team will have to share 100 for all of them since there were only a few scoring over 100 per night last season, his numbers will drop obviously.

I never said you did...and this is the first time you've digressed from the 'your triangle, you don't know what you're talking about, payton will average 7 or more assists per game, his numbers won't go down, etc' crap to the scoring points per game...I never mentioned shit. All I've said is that I don't think Payton will fit into the Lakers triangle....

However I do consider the assists won't go down like you are expecting. Averaging 7 apg like you stated is not what I'm expecting since he averaged 8 last season, so expecting him to average 7 will be like saying he will keep getting all his assists. 6 per game will be more than enough (that's what I told you before), and I wouldn't call that dramatically since it's obvious he has to share the ball now.

In Payton's case: the guy score over 17 ppg as well, give over 7 assists per game, and steals & defends his opponents better than when he was a rookie.

You just said that....and he doesn't defend his opponents better than when he was a rookie because he's lost lateral quickness....he's smarter, but he can't do as much....

Second, Payton is a much better PG than this Hunter and plays a much better and organized game (If Van Exel were organized his assists would be over 10 per game).

Well, duh...Lindsay Hunter was mediocre in his prime...Payton's still great and he's past his prime...why make this point? Do you think I have no idea what Payton's abilities are? I know Payton's abilities, and I know how stubborn Phil is with the triangle...and I don't think the triangle and Payton work together. My opinion, and you can't prove me wrong until after next season is over...give me some good reasons as to why he'll fit into the system, aside from your completely wrong assumption that 'the triangle isn't built for a center (total rubbish)' and I won't be annoyed with your predictions that it'll be a smooth transition from number 1 man to number 4 man in a system that takes the ball out of a playmaker's hands and puts it in another's and a center ...

Last season the Lakers started playing more out of the triangle and didn't run it as often. I expect them to run it even less in this upcoming season ...

Could be because Shaq was injured a lot...and since he was the other part of the two man game the Lakers ahd to move to different offensive sets out of necesity....like when Shaq and/or Kobe are on the bench...that's the one definate plus of adding Malone and Payton, as someone said, that they can be on the floor to spell Shaq and Kobe (and keep running the triangle), and with Payton's height he can cover the two guard and they can bring Derek Fisher...but that's just my opinion, which is obviously wrong because I'm not a Laker fan

Just like I said, Phil Jackson is not that stupid. He is not going to cut Payton out of the offence by running the triangle, sure they will still run it, but with nowhere near the regularity as the past few seasons. They now have two more options on offence, either one could have 20+ in any game, they are not going to have to run the triangle to score. They can play whatever freakin' offence they want, there aren't going to have trouble putting points on the board. Maybe you should think of something else that is going to stop the Lakers, because the triangle isn't going to be it.

Did I say they would cut him out of the offense? The triangle is based on teamwork, that's why it works so well. But if you guys think that it'll be a smooth transition, I think you're mistaken because it's a difficult system to learn. Payton will still be in the offense, but I don't think he'll be happy when he doesn't get as many shots as he thinks he should....even in a reduced role. Again, my opinion...

This is annoying, you guys all act like the Lakers are now invincible and the guys haven't even suited up together...granted, they're no Portland Jailblazers, but they're still athletes with big egos and they also have to learn a very difficult offense that will take them a while to learn...as for the offense, they can run whatever offense they want? Yeah, they could, but would it work as well as a well-executed triangle? Look at history....the triangle works, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it....

Oh, your last line is crap, too...I'm not saying the Lakers are going to be a lottery team, I'm not saying they're going to scrape into the playoffs...I'm saying they won't be the unstoppable force that you guys are all assuming they will be. They'll win 60 games, tops. No more...I'm NOT saying the Triangle will stop them, I'm saying Payton doesn't fit into the equation. He will eventually, but it'll take probably at least 30 games for him - and Malone - to be fully comfortable with the triangle and rotations that Jackson uses.

A lot of you guys think too much about the personel and their stats...there's other stuff to take into account like personalities and the type of offense, which is what I"m focusing on (but I'm just a HATER, so what do I know about solid basketball? I guess nothing since I don't worship the purple and gold...)

LOL, come on, Lindsay Hunter a true point guard? He's a shooting guard that's 6'2...

Are you saying that because he's 6'2" is a Shooting Guard?, all he plays is PG and that's what teams want him for, that's what he does for living, he's not an Iverson who I believe is 6'2" undersized "SG". If you go by sizes, the normal size for a SG is between 6-5 & 6-7.

Point guard's assists go down in the triangle? Yes, yes they do, and you proved it for me...albeit with a horrible example...

I guess you didn't see the minutes played,

and he's not a passer and he played off the bench behind Cassell and Allen, and they also had Rafer Alston at the time

If he was playing behind Allen/Cassell there, he was playing behind Kobe/Fisher here, what's the big deal, we are comparing with the minutes played since that's something they can't deny to the player.

and this is the first time you've digressed from the 'your triangle, you don't know what you're talking about, payton will average 7 or more assists per game, his numbers won't go down

Yes I called your triangle.
Yes I said you don't know what you're talking about (related to the Lakers making a mistake getting Payton)
NO, I NEVER SAID PAYTON WILL AVERAGE 7 OR MORE ASST PER GAME, just quote me where's that?
NO, I NEVER SAID HIS NUMBER WON'T GO DOWN, again quote me so you don't have to get mad cause other think you're making things up.

In Payton's case: the guy score over 17 ppg as well, give over 7 assists per game, and steals & defends his opponents better than when he was a rookie.

When I said that was quoting his last years number, there you don't see anything related with future (he will/he's going to).

You just said that....and he doesn't defend his opponents better than when he was a rookie because he's lost lateral quickness....he's smarter, but he can't do as much...

When I said Rookie, I meant Rookie, go back to his rookie season and compare.

Payton's still great and he's past his prime...why make this point? Do you think I have no idea what Payton's abilities are?

Thanks, I really thought you have completely lost all your reputation.

give me some good reasons as to why he'll fit into the system

The only difficulties the Triangle offense offers is to learn how to dominate it, Phil brought Harper from the Bulls so he didn't have to deal with these new guys teaching them how to do the job. Once Harper implemented how's done, then Fisher could work with it, notice that Harper is not a PG but a SG. Why do I believe that is not so hard for Payton?, Well Payton Basketball IQ is so high that he went from a team as a PG one night to another and he was already adapted to play SG, simple.

Why does Payton fits there, cause Payton knows how to share the ball, Payton is not Kobe who shoots everytime he gets the ball, do you understand what sharing the ball is? Ask Stockton what Sharing the ball is and how do you get assists? Triangle Ball rotation, that makes easier the job for Payton, since Payton doesn't have to run all over to look for open teammates, he will get there and pass the ball to the player assigned who most likely will shoot or attack the basket, if not will return the ball and Payton will look for other options, do you think this game is A is here and is going to be here all the time?, looks like you have never played the game as well.

and I won't be annoyed with your predictions that it'll be a smooth transition from number 1 man to number 4 man in a system that takes the ball out of a playmaker's hands and puts it in another's and a center

Shane, Shane, Shane, that's called assist. Don't you get it?, that another scores, that's an assist, that's what you think is going to drop dramatically.

(but I'm just a HATER, so what do I know about solid basketball? I guess nothing since I don't worship the purple and gold...)

Well, I'm another "Hater" but I like the combination of those colors so that makes me against you.

LOL, come on, Lindsay Hunter a true point guard? He's a shooting guard that's 6'2...

Are you saying that because he's 6'2" is a Shooting Guard?, all he plays is PG and that's what teams want him for, that's what he does for living, he's not an Iverson who I believe is 6'2" undersized "SG". If you go by sizes, the normal size for a SG is between 6-5 & 6-7.

No offense but that was a dumb part of a post. Lindsey Hunter plays like a SG trapped in a PG's body. It has nothing to do with his height sompared to other sg's and stuff. It means Lindsey Hunter is a mediocre at best shooting guard, but since he's 6'2'' teams make/made him play PG. Understand?
And your example of assists in the triangle was bad. The AP48 for the year before the lakers was 5.4, for the year in LA was 3.8 And 5 mpg isn't really that much. Certainly not enough to warrant a "I guess you didn't see the minutes played." Five minutes should not take away one whole assist.

My opinion on all this, is that you are both exaggerating what will happen. IMO GP will probably get around 12 points and 5.5 to 6 assists per game. Sure Big Chief triangle is stubborn with his offense, but if you get two all-star calibre players that don't fit into your offense you will change the offense no matter what. Do you think Denver would keep going to Juwan (if he stays, which he won't I know, but it's an example) all the time when they have Carmelo. They wouldn't. These players have proved themselves and won't just do the same job as Horry and Fisher have done. It will take time for the two players to adjust to the triangle. But it takes everyone time. And it won't take as long for two smart old guys, as it would for the newbies like Cook and Walton. 30 games I think not, maybe more like 15-20. I also think GP will be the primary ball-handler. He is a better ball-handler than Mr. Give Me Street Cred Bryant, so logically he should take it more than Bryant. Plus there's Bryant's poor vision, you know how he can't see anything but the hoop. Except for when the hoop's blocked by someone. In short, yes their stats will decrease but not by as much as some people have been saying.

I have to pretty much agree with Colin...if Lindsey Hunter played as many minutes as he did in Milwaukee while he was with the Lakers, he'd average about 1.9 assists per game. That's a 30% drop-off from his 2.7 the year before. If Payton's stats do the same, he'll average about 5.8 assists per game. Payton might get about 5-6 a game, my guess. I don't know if GP will be the primary ballhandler or not, we'll see...there are good cases for both Bryant and Payton to dribble it up. I'm sure Payton will stun everyone when he averages 7-8 APG by throwing some great alley-oops to Medvedenko and Madsen .

No offense Colin but nobody invited you to the party,

It isn't going to be all peaches and cream for Payton and the Lakers, though. Learning the triangle offense will be the hardest part of this puzzle. Payton is used to being able to roam wherever he wants offensively. He won't be able to do that anymore, because the triangle is a rigid offensive system. It relies on players being in certain places at certain times and making decisions based on those positions. It will take Payton a while to learn the triangle, but his basketball IQ is so high, I doubt it will be a major problem. Whatever he needs to learn, he'll learn in training camp.

Fred Carter Opinion

However, you came to the party so let's see what you got.

Lindsey Hunter plays like a SG trapped in a PG's body

The fact that Horry plays like SF doesn't make him one, that's already clear in your mind.

but since he's 6'2'' teams make/made him play PG. Understand?

That's just stupid, if he were so good as SG (aka Iverson), he would get his move to the same position.

The AP48 for the year before the lakers was 5.4, for the year in LA was 3.8 And 5 mpg isn't really that much.

I never said AP48, I said Assist per minutes played, that means if you played 5 mins and got 1 assist, you average give 1 assists every 5 mins, when you get that to 48 mins the average will be the same related to more mins, did you get it?

Certainly not enough to warrant a "I guess you didn't see the minutes played." Five minutes should not take away one whole assist.

Why not? can't you give one assist in 5 mins?

My opinion on all this, is that you are both exaggerating what will happen. IMO GP will probably get around 12 points and 5.5 to 6 assists per game.

So obviously you are wrong cause those are the numbers I stated, Geez.

It will take time for the two players to adjust to the triangle. But it takes everyone time. And it won't take as long for two smart old guys, as it would for the newbies like Cook and Walton.

True, nobody is saying they know how to play it, in fact I already said that's the most difficult part of it *learning it* and posted a link so others can see the oppinions of those who write more.

Last edited by scubilete on Sat Jul 12, 2003 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Are you saying that because he's 6'2" is a Shooting Guard?, all he plays is PG and that's what teams want him for, that's what he does for living, he's not an Iverson who I believe is 6'2" undersized "SG". If you go by sizes, the normal size for a SG is between 6-5 & 6-7.

Here, let me specifiy: they play hunter at point guard because he's an undersized shooting guard and can defend point guards. He plays like a shooting guard, and he shoots lots of threes. He doesn't run an offense worth a damn...in Detroit they had Hill to take care of that, but Hunter did bring the all up (correct me if I'm wrong...)....I never said he 'was' a shooting guard in so many words...Shammond Williams is a shooting guard playing point because of his size. Iverson is barely 6'0 tall...are you kidding me? Where are you getting this stuff?

I guess you didn't see the minutes played,

I saw the minutes played....and I ignored 'em....because the ball wasn't in hunter's hands that much in Milwaukee in the point guard capacity. He defended points, brought the ball up, but when I saw Milwaukee play the usually had Allen or Cassell in at the same time as Hunter, and they took care of running the offense more than he did...he's a shitty point guard, trust me, he plays for my favorite team right now and I absolutely hate him...he's a shitty point, period...

If he was playing behind Allen/Cassell there, he was playing behind Kobe/Fisher here, what's the big deal, we are comparing with the minutes played since that's something they can't deny to the player.

You compared assists and never said boo about the minutes...you had them there, but you didn't talk about them...

Yes I called your triangle.
Yes I said you don't know what you're talking about (related to the Lakers making a mistake getting Payton)
NO, I NEVER SAID PAYTON WILL AVERAGE 7 OR MORE ASST PER GAME, just quote me where's that?
NO, I NEVER SAID HIS NUMBER WON'T GO DOWN, again quote me so you don't have to get mad cause other think you're making things up.

Yes, you did. And I quoted you...I'm mad? Apparently you're psychic as well as being a basketball genius

When I said that was quoting his last years number, there you don't see anything related with future (he will/he's going to).

Oh, jeez, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your present tense use as a future prediction...use past tense, it's less confusing....'he gives you, he gives you, etc.' makes it look like you think he'll average that next year as well....my bad...but we're not talking about last year's stats, we're talking about next year...so what's the relevance? No one knows how well Payton will do in LA next year, not me, not you, not even Payton....it's a different coach, a different offense, and completely different teammates...

When I said Rookie, I meant Rookie, go back to his rookie season and compare.

Yeah, and I said he's smarter but doesn't have the quickness he used to have....

Thanks, I really thought you have completely lost all your reputation.

I've said quite a few good things about Payton...it's not really a negative thing about a player to say 'I don't think he'll fit into the triangle'....

The only difficulties the Triangle offense offers is to learn how to dominate it, Phil brought Harper from the Bulls so he didn't have to deal with these new guys teaching them how to do the job.

Dominate? Do you mean learn? Phil brought Harper in to help teach, but he also brought Tex Winters....you know, the guy that invented the triangle...to teach the young guys...oh, and Shaq and Kobe had to learn the triangle as well...they didn't adjust right away either, but it was easier because they were the two players the triangle was built around...

Once Harper implemented how's done, then Fisher could work with it, notice that Harper is not a PG but a SG. Why do I believe that is not so hard for Payton?, Well Payton Basketball IQ is so high that he went from a team as a PG one night to another and he was already adapted to play SG, simple.

Really? I didn't say Harper was a shooting guard about 20 posts up? Thanks for telling me what Harper really was! I'm enlightened!

Oh, so he went from playing point guard to playing with another scoring point guard....I don't think Milwaukee really specified which was the point...Paytons the better floor general, and Cassell likes to shoot more...didn't see too many Milwaukee games last year (like 2), and those were before the trade...so I can't make an accurate statement here, but I'd assume they called Payton a shooting gaurd because he was 6'5....he guarded the shooting guards, they just played with two points on the floor at once...

I'm not saying GP isn't smart, I'm just saying that's flawed logic to back up why you think Payton is going to meld seamlessly into the triangle and as a fourth scoring option...

Why does Payton fits there, cause Payton knows how to share the ball, Payton is not Kobe who shoots everytime he gets the ball, do you understand what sharing the ball is? Ask Stockton what Sharing the ball is and how do you get assists?

I can't believe you're attempting to lecture me when you don't even fully understand the triangle...few people do fully understand the triangle, but you're missing the point completely. So you think Payton's going to make a pass and it's going to be a basket scored? Automatically? Look at the diagrams, look at the ball movement...ideally, every player should touch the ball, and then it goes to the number one guy in the post, in this case, and if that doesn't work, then he passes to the perimeter for the shot or to the cutter....Payton will get 4-5 apg tops....Kobe and Shaq will get around 6 each, Kobe maybe 7....that's still a lot of assists, but it's halfing Payton's current mark, and, like I already said, in my opinion, that's DRAMATICALLY (ooo, I used that word again) lower....

Triangle Ball rotation, that makes easier the job for Payton, since Payton doesn't have to run all over to look for open teammates, he will get there and pass the ball to the player assigned who most likely will shoot or attack the basket, if not will return the ball and Payton will look for other options, do you think this game is A is here and is going to be here all the time?, looks like you have never played the game as well.

For crying out loud...it's a motion offense...I've mentioned Payton cutting to the hoop...spotting up...Payton has to be able to move with the ball better, and how often has he NOT had the ball in his hands in the past? It makes it a bit easier to score, except for the fact that Malone, Kobe, and Shaq will be shooting the ball the most. Payton isn't a spot up shooter (he can do it, but it's not his natural tendency), so that doesn't fit quite right into the triangle either...I've never played the game? I haven't played organized, but I've played, and I've taken a coaching class at a university and watch quite a bit of basketball. I know collegiate basketball players, had a beer with Larry Eustachy (not really, but he was in McDonald's and asked me if they were still serving breakfast...)...I love basketball, and I learn about it. I know how the triangle works better than you do, that's obvious from the beginning of this debate...

Shane, Shane, Shane, that's called assist. Don't you get it?, that another scores, that's an assist, that's what you think is going to drop dramatically.

You have no comprehensive reading skills. The ball...will not be...in Paytons...hands...most of the time.....it will...be in...Kobe...or Shaq's...hands...more...than....Paytons....which is what I meant. Did I mention 'to them for a basket?' No. So your idiotic statement about assists is about as annoying as your stubborness to make you look like you know what you're talking about....

Iverson is barely 6'0 tall...are you kidding me? Where are you getting this stuff?

Exactly, he's good shooting so he plays the position,

I saw the minutes played....and I ignored 'em...

You compared assists and never said boo about the minutes...you had them there, but you didn't talk about them...

You see the difference, he played 5 more mins with the Bucks and gave only 1 assist more per game

Thanks.

he's a shitty point guard, trust me, he plays for my favorite team right now and I absolutely hate him...he's a shitty point, period...

I'm not saying he's great but happens that he was the only one (like Payton) coming from some other place to the Lakers, comparing his assists from his former team with the Lakers.

Apparently you're psychic as well as being a basketball genius

Well, if you start calling me a moron I wouldn't consider you are being polite,

Oh, jeez, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your present tense use as a future prediction...use past tense, it's less confusing....

It happens that they still haven't scored below 15 per game so as far they don't start doing it, I can make that present tense, I believe you understand that, right? If you say Duncan scores 30 every night, nobody has to think you are saying he will.

so what's the relevance? No one knows how well Payton will do in LA next year, not me, not you, not even Payton

True, that's why I stated in case you didn't see it as many other things you don't:

But let's wait, that's all we can do since the season is not there and Payton is not even a Laker.

I don't think Milwaukee really specified which was the point...

Yes they did, the coach did as well, Cassell was the PG.

Did I mention 'to them for a basket?' No.

So the purpose of the Triangle is to find an open player to keep the ball for 24 seconds?, , that's a violation.

I'm done arguing with you....because it's pointless arguing with someone who doesn't even understand what he's arguing and who thinks Iverson's 6'2 and Lindsey Hunter should be a good shooting guard

No one knows how well Payton will do in LA next year, not me, not you, not even Payton

Payton will get 4-5 apg tops....Kobe and Shaq will get around 6 each, Kobe maybe 7

Wait so do you know or not know how well he's going to do?...I think that Kobe will handle the ball much less then he did last year. I think Shaq in no way will get more assists then Payton too. Shaq and Kobe know what it takes to win. By aquring these players the Lakers will do better but only if Shaq and Kobe do what they do best and let Payton and Malone do what they do best. Kobe should know that he doesn't need to be the dictator of the offense when he's sharing a backcourt with Gary Payton. Payton and Malone weren't brought here just so they could provide assistance when Kobe and Shaq are resting. Payton will be better than Derek Fisher was when he's on the floor with Shaq and Kobe while Malone will be better than Robert Horry was when he's with Shaq and Kobe.

Wait so do you know or not know how well he's going to do?...

I don't know...just guessing, like the rest of us....I wasn't stating it like it was a fact....

who thinks Iverson's 6'2 and Lindsey Hunter should be a good shooting guard

The case is you are saying Hunter is a SG in a PG body and I just told you if that's the case, he can be switched to the SG pos if he were that good like you are saying he is. I know more than you what you are trying to say without success, that's the same case of Juan Dixon but where is your mistake? You said that because Hunter is 6'2" he is a SG.

LOL, come on, Lindsay Hunter a true point guard? He's a shooting guard that's 6'2

So, that's the mistake, you can't assigned positions by height, true no 6'2" will ever be a Center but Magic 6'9" was a PG, not PF, but PG, if Magic were a PG trapped in a PF body like you are trying to say here, then Magic would have been used as a PF, but not, he was PG and that's what he played.

I'm done arguing with you....because it's pointless arguing with someone who doesn't even understand what he's arguing

I do understand but you are not clear in the triangle subject since you can't answer what's the purpose of the triangle. You didn't agree the purpose is to find an open player to get a good look at the basket, so they can score, something Payton would easily help. I guess your Triangle differs from Winter's Triangle in that case.

uh oh this topic is gonna be lock soon

The case is you are saying Hunter is a SG in a PG body and I just told you if that's the case, he can be switched to the SG pos if he were that good like you are saying he is. I know more than you what you are trying to say without success, that's the same case of Juan Dixon but where is your mistake? You said that because Hunter is 6'2" he is a SG.

He's played at shooting guard at times....but not very often because he's 6'2 and not Allen Iverson....talent level of Allen Iverson > talent of Lindsay Hunter...sheesh....only a mentally handicapped four year old would actually play Lindsay Hunter - who plays like a shooting guard, but is a good enough defender for point guards - at shooting guard for extended periods of time....You know more than me? I kind of doubt that one...

So, that's the mistake, you can't assigned positions by height, true no 6'2" will ever be a Center but Magic 6'9" was a PG, not PF, but PG, if Magic were a PG trapped in a PF body like you are trying to say here, then Magic would have been used as a PF, but not, he was PG and that's what he played.

Why are you arguing this? The only reason I said the hunter is a shooting guard trapped in a point guard's body is because you called him a TRUE point guard....this has no relevance to the discussion other than that. You're changing the subject because all you can do is give convulated reasons and try to confuse people with your knowledge of the triangle...which is very little, obviously...

I do understand but you are not clear in the triangle subject since you can't answer what's the purpose of the triangle. You didn't agree the purpose is to find an open player to get a good look at the basket, so they can score, something Payton would easily help. I guess your Triangle differs from Winter's Triangle in that case.

If you understood the triangle we wouldn't have argued about it for so long. You claim to be an expert....well, you could have just gone to those links and read up on it. You didn't seem to have a clue until I posted those links....and as for scoring at the end of the triangle? Of course it is, you dolt...sheesh....

I am done now...

of course its nonsense to say malone will tear his ACL, get charged with sexual assault, etc... my point in saying this is because saying malone will definitely average 10/5 and the lakers will win 70 is nonsense too. the season hasn't even started and people here are stating it as facts.

laker fans- malone playing for team USA this summer most likely will hurt him. even though he is very dedicated to keeping himself in top physical shape, odds are that his body will break down in the 2nd half of this upcoming NBA season. take in case the handful of players who participate in team USA and end up wearing down. this happens every year. you also have to factor in malone's age. and some lakers fans are expecting him to average a lot minutes this year!

scub- so i was a year off with pippen on the blazers. thanks, but our discussion is heading nowhere if you're going to be bringing up things like this

i was going to reply to other the replies made from my earlier post but i forgot after reading this shane/scub discussion.

Let's just wait to see if Payton will average only 3 assists per game like you are saying.

If you understood the triangle we wouldn't have argued about it for so long.

I understand the triangle & the purposes why the Triangle is used as well, I asked you what do you think the purpose of that kind of offense is, but you just look at the lines and positions but don't get its purpose.

You didn't seem to have a clue until I posted those links...

, Now I don't have a clue what you are talking about, I just read whatever you posted, lol.

and as for scoring at the end of the triangle? Of course it is, you dolt...sheesh...

So, that's an assist, thank you very much.

Shane, I'm going to be serious now with you, let's stop the fun.

Do you know why Winter came with the idea of the Triangle? We are talking about a team who just had 1 scorer (89 Bulls), No quality at the PG, and almost nothing else. That's the first thing, you have kept saying the Triangle is based on 2 primary scorers, those Bulls didn't have a 2nd one, and they developed the Triangle.

Second, the triangle is used in desperation to find scorers in good position, those guys don't spend 48 mins doing it, and as for your theory of not being NBA Live (if you play Basketball, I meant for real) you should know well guys are not robots who will do just as the offense says, at least that's how I used to play. Why? cause if something goes wrong, you must have more alternatives to score. That happens with the Triangle as well, you can't say the Triangle always work cause if it would then the Bulls wouldn't have lost when MJ retired the first time, or wouldn't have lost when they were facing the Pistons every year. Get it?

of course its nonsense to say malone will tear his ACL, get charged with sexual assault, etc... my point in saying this is because saying malone will definitely average 10/5 and the lakers will win 70 is nonsense too.

Limp, you didn't get it. I meant that I already said if the Lakers stay healthy the possibilities to win are over the limit, I didn't say that was nonsense cause it can happen.

However, my point of averaging 10/5, that's comparing your statement of why people never said the Bulls of 99, or whatever year that was, those Bulls were the best ever. What's the point?, when Parish got there, none of those people were expecting Parish's (a 42 yo, who averaged the season before below 3 ppg, 2 rpg) to do a lot since his numbers were absolutely low. In Malone's case, and I hope you understand this, even yourself can't deny that Malone is capable of scoring 10 per game and grab 5 rebs as well, don't try to confuse things that we are not idiots.

Regarding the 70 wins, I already said (don't know if it was in this thread,) the Lakers won't play to break any record in the case they get together, so I consider you are not talking about me.

scub- so i was a year off with pippen on the blazers. thanks, but our discussion is heading nowhere if you're going to be bringing up things like this

Was not a big deal, I just wanted to remind you that Portland didn't have any great team in the 90s besides the Duckworth's team with Drexler as the Captain.

you also have to factor in malone's age. and some lakers fans are expecting him to average a lot minutes this year!

Utah used Malone as much as they could cause Malone was basically the force there, Lakers don't have a PF like Malone but they can give him a good rest, nobody is expecting him to play 40 mins per game or break Kareem's record next season.

I really don't know why you are mad about this team getting together, I understand that team is great and you are not a Lakers fan but it's not like you are going to die for that, is it?

Let's just wait to see if Payton will average only 3 assists per game like you are saying

I said 5 apg....

I understand the triangle & the purposes why the Triangle is used as well, I asked you what do you think the purpose of that kind of offense is, but you just look at the lines and positions but don't get its purpose.

The purpose of the triangle is to promote teamwork and ball movement and in the end, score...the purpose of any offense is to score. I didn't think I needed to say that...sicne it's an OFFENSE...

So, that's an assist, thank you very much.

Oh, so what you're saying is that every time a basket is scored it's an assist? You know nothing about basketball if you think that...

Shane, I'm going to be serious now with you, let's stop the fun.
Do you know why Winter came with the idea of the Triangle?

Yeah, he figured it out when he was the head coach at Kansas State and it was the only time K-State had the number one draft pick, or something like that...might have been leading scorer of the NCAA, but I don't really care that much....the triangle came into existence at K-State. Winters was hired as an assistant to Phil Jackson in Chicago (I think on that one, he may have been there before Phil, but I doubt it).

We are talking about a team who just had 1 scorer (89 Bulls), No quality at the PG, and almost nothing else. That's the first thing, you have kept saying the Triangle is based on 2 primary scorers, those Bulls didn't have a 2nd one, and they developed the Triangle.

Phil Jackson wasn't a head coach in the NBA until 1989...the Bulls had 1 scorer, but they also had Scottie Pippen who gave them 15ppg and Horace Grant who gave them over 10ppg as well...the pieces were in place for the triangle, and besides, Jordan was averaging over 30ppg. I don't think they fully implemented the triangle until their first championship season (Limp, Andrew?)...and the triangle IS based on two primary scorers...click on every link, they all say 'two man game'...which kind of indicates two scorers? Right? I never said dominant scorers....

Second, the triangle is used in desperation to find scorers in good position, those guys don't spend 48 mins doing it, and as for your theory of not being NBA Live (if you play Basketball, I meant for real) you should know well guys are not robots who will do just as the offense says, at least that's how I used to play.

Desperation? It's their primary offense...they don't only use it when they're desperate, they switch from it to other offenses. I never said they run the triangle for 48 minutes, but it IS their primary offense and their primary offensive set.

The NBA Live comment was directed at everyone who thinks that this unit well gel cohesively just like that and automatically get the NBA championship...

Right now you're flailing for anything you can grab onto and making weird arguments like I'm a moron who knows absolutely nothing about basketball, especially when you think every basket equals an assist and that the Bulls weren't running the triangle in their championship runs, or that the Lakers won't use it next year...

Why? cause if something goes wrong, you must have more alternatives to score. That happens with the Triangle as well, you can't say the Triangle always work cause if it would then the Bulls wouldn't have lost when MJ retired the first time, or wouldn't have lost when they were facing the Pistons every year. Get it?

Apparently you missed my comment about a coaching class and how it's their PRIMARY offense...meaning it's their main offense...which means they run more than one, but the triangle more than anything else. The Bulls lost when MJ retired the first time because that was 30ppg off their scoring....and they weren't using the Triangle till 1989-1990 season...when Phil Jackson and Tex Winter took the reigns of the Bulls. I get it, but you obviously don't. You think Tex Winter made up the triangle in Chicago? Not even close....do YOU get it? Obviously not...

Edit: I'm not mad about this team getting together, I don't have any problem with Malone and Payton getting rings...I just don't think Payton will fit into the system as well as everyone's expecting. It's my opinion...but you act like I fucked your mom in a church or something...sheesh....

even yourself can't deny that Malone is capable of scoring 10 per game and grab 5 rebs as well, don't try to confuse things that we are not idiots.

yes i can deny that will not happen. until it has happened, then i'll accept it. right now it's pure speculation. you're the one saying like it's a fact of life and expecting others to believe it as well:

True, Parish was one of the greatest centers but Parish numbers/age were not the same as malone's, was understood Parish was not going to grab over 5 rebs per game or score over 10 points like you know very well Malone will,

Utah used Malone as much as they could cause Malone was basically the force there, Lakers don't have a PF like Malone but they can give him a good rest, nobody is expecting him to play 40 mins per game or break Kareem's record next season.

i never said the anyone will be asking malone to play 40 mins per game. but someone on this forum did say something like 35mins. also i didn't say i expect malone to break jabar's record. btw- he has to score more then 12ppg in the next 2 seasons to break it. i've mentioned it in another thread. but anyway, as of now, who is the backup PF? is there anything that resembles a NBA player that plays this position on the lakers roster? cook seems decent but after following his career at U of I, he's a brad sellers in the making (too soft to play in the post).

and scub- im not mad, i'm just discussing a few topics. just because someone is not a lakers fan and presents some valid arguments against the lakers, it doesn't mean someone is mad. but take whatever i say how you want to.

oh yeh.. shane: i'm 99% sure that the bulls started using the triple post offense as their main offense the year of their first championship. someone can consult the official video for the championship or sam smith's 'jordan rules' just to double check. btw there's chapter there how tex and phil were trying to convince jordan to run the triangle. pretty entertaining...

I said 5 apg...

Payton will get 4-5 apg tops....Kobe and Shaq will get around 6 each, Kobe maybe 7....

Well, there's a 5 there but still 4 is what you meant when you said those assists will drop dramatically.

The purpose of the triangle is to promote teamwork and ball movement and in the end, score...

Teamwork? yes, that would be ball sharing. Ball movement, right but the fact is the ball movement is done to get players with open look to the basket, that's something I've been telling you. Whoever who has an open shot, doesn't wait 10 seconds to think about shooting it which would kill an assist, that's all I've been telling you. If the guy passing the ball is Payton, why would you doubt he won't get his assists in that case?

Phil Jackson have never had a PG like Payton, that was another reason why Kobe got those assists but do you really think Kobe likes to pass the ball?, I don't like calling you names like you have been doing but that's just in your mind.

Oh, so what you're saying is that every time a basket is scored it's an assist? You know nothing about basketball if you think that...

Well, you get a pass & score in transition, I know nothing about Basketball, you are right, that's called a rebound?

I don't think they fully implemented the triangle until their first championship season (Limp, Andrew?)

Of course they did, it only didn't result when they were facing the Pistons, go back and look at the roster of the Pistons and you will see why. The best defenders of the whole league grouped in a city & the only coach who knew how to stop the Bulls scoring machine.

and the triangle IS based on two primary scorers...click on every link, they all say 'two man game'...which kind of indicates two scorers? Right? I never said dominant scorers...

Well, since 15 ppg is not called primary scoring, I didn't think you meant that. We have rookies who come to the league and score 16 points and still they are not primary scorers.

Desperation? It's their primary offense...they don't only use it when they're desperate, they switch from it to other offenses. I never said they run the triangle for 48 minutes, but it IS their primary offense and their primary offensive set.

Well, that's something you didn't say before, it would have saved you ton of your precious time.

*sigh* IT'S AN OFFENSE!! IT DOESN'T CHANGE!!! IT CHANGES PLAYERS AND NOTHING ELSE! For fuck's sake, get it through your head that I'm not making up what the triangle OFFENSE is, it's there, the Lakers run it and have for the last four years, and the Bulls ran it for how long? Why would Phil Jackson change offenses now after he's won 9 rings? He's not! I can garuntee it...you can't be open minded about an offense that is well established because it's well-established and simply is what it is. The triangle is the triangle. Period.

Oh sorry, didn't mean to quote that.

especially when you think every basket equals an assist and that the Bulls weren't running the triangle in their championship runs, or that the Lakers won't use it next year...

They can use it, I'd love them to use it, but that was the whole point, now you are saying they use it as primary, ok, now we are talking, but you trying to say that they just use that and that will be it, that's all I've been arguing with you.

You think Tex Winter made up the triangle in Chicago? Not even close....do YOU get it? Obviously not...

No, you are the one who think they didn't implemented the offense there back in 89. Also, since we are talking about NBA, I don't care if the guy learned that in HS, he brought that to the world's eyes with Chicago which is useless your comment of college.

but you act like I fucked your mom in a church or something...sheesh....

If you would ever get to fuck any girl, I don't think it would be my mom. No offense you know, but sometimes guys with little dicks don't get women excited.

Anyway, you said you are not mad, all I've been doing is trying to explain few points to you and you call me moron, use your F words and now talking about my mom, sheesh...., I thought you were more educated or at least a little more mature to avoid offensive comments.

and scub- im not mad, i'm just discussing a few topics. just because someone is not a lakers fan and presents some valid arguments against the lakers, it doesn't mean someone is mad. but take whatever i say how you want to.

Don't take it wrong but in your case I know well you don't like the idea of the Lakers getting this team, and I'll tell you something: I'm not a Queens' fan but I get happy for them getting a better team and I do recognize they are tough when they get those guys in court, so why can't all of you get happy for the Lakers and have a good time?

Anyway, this is why I guess you are so mad about these guys getting together:

and i still stand by my statement of preferring the 90's blazers players... and call me a loser if you want. only a wussy would sport purple as one of their main colors on their uniform...

i'm 99% sure that the bulls started using the triple post offense as their main offense the year of their first championship. someone can consult the official video for the championship or sam smith's 'jordan rules' just to double check. btw there's chapter there how tex and phil were trying to convince jordan to run the triangle. pretty entertaining...

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry couldn't resist. Tex Winter

the offensive system that has won eight of the last 12 NBA Championships, is virtually a walking history book of basketball information.

Knowing that is counting 8 of the last 12, you guys would agree the last championship is not there, meaning the article is from 2001. 8 out of 12 from 2001, means there are 4 years missing another team took the championship, [93-94, 94-95 (Rockets), 99 (Spurs), 89-90 (Pistons)]. I'm 100% sure now.

Well, there's a 5 there but still 4 is what you meant when you said those assists will drop dramatically.

But it's still not 3apg like you said I said...

Teamwork? yes, that would be ball sharing. Ball movement, right but the fact is the ball movement is done to get players with open look to the basket, that's something I've been telling you. Whoever who has an open shot, doesn't wait 10 seconds to think about shooting it which would kill an assist, that's all I've been telling you. If the guy passing the ball is Payton, why would you doubt he won't get his assists in that case?

That would mean Payton passes to someone and scores every time...considering there's five players on the court and the ball should go to each one of them each possession, then Payton won't always be the last one to touch the ball, and, guess what? They don't always score...and then there's offensive rebounds or kick outs or whatever...tons of differnet things can happen....but they start in the triangle.

Phil Jackson have never had a PG like Payton, that was another reason why Kobe got those assists but do you really think Kobe likes to pass the ball?, I don't like calling you names like you have been doing but that's just in your mind.

He had Michael Jordan...that guy was alright, I guess...

Well, you get a pass & score in transition, I know nothing about Basketball, you are right, that's called a rebound?

So basketball's only a transition game? Make up your mind! Are we palying NBA basketball or streetball?

Of course they did, it only didn't result when they were facing the Pistons, go back and look at the roster of the Pistons and you will see why. The best defenders of the whole league grouped in a city & the only coach who knew how to stop the Bulls scoring machine.

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, Bulls fans, but the triangle didn't appear until the 1989-1990 season when Phil Jackson took over as head coach of the Bulls. Doug Collins offense isn't the triangle....

Well, since 15 ppg is not called primary scoring, I didn't think you meant that. We have rookies who come to the league and score 16 points and still they are not primary scorers.

We don't really have rookies scoring 15ppg...and that was Pippen's rookie year...or sophomore year...either way, it's good for him. I think Horace Grant was scoring almost 20 a game at that point in time, but I could be wrong....and when you have Michael Jordan shooting 50% and scoring over 30ppg, you don't really have to worry too much about another guy scoring 25ppg....

Well, that's something you didn't say before, it would have saved you ton of your precious time.

I assumed - quite wrongly - that you understood teams ran more than one offense.

Oh sorry, didn't mean to quote that.

You were saying the Lakers wouldn't run the triangle and telling me how the Lakers weren't going to run the triangle...I think you said they would change the triangle...and that was my response....and that was also when you were calling it 'my' triangle offense...

They can use it, I'd love them to use it, but that was the whole point, now you are saying they use it as primary, ok, now we are talking, but you trying to say that they just use that and that will be it, that's all I've been arguing with you.

Now? I've been saying it all along...I never ONCE said that's ALL the use....quote me on that. Find where I said 'The Lakers only use the Triangle offense and never switch out of it to anything else.' Find that. Now, read what I said over and over again until you realize that I don't think that Payton fits into the triangle offense - which will be the primary offense the Lakers use next year. If they don't, I'll eat my words, but I'll be they do....because it's worked.

No, you are the one who think they didn't implemented the offense there back in 89. Also, since we are talking about NBA, I don't care if the guy learned that in HS, he brought that to the world's eyes with Chicago which is useless your comment of college.

You said '88...I said FULLY implement, which means the players were still learning it. It's not an easy thing to learn the triangle, that's been said over and over again by everyone...along with a coaching switch and new personel, it takes longer. I meant that the Bulls were using the triangle primarily in the 89-90 season...when it was fully implemented as the main offensive set. Do I seriously have to spell everything out to you, or do you have comprehensive skills that will allow me to waste less time talking to you?

If you would ever get to fuck any girl, I don't think it would be my mom. No offense you know, but sometimes guys with little dicks don't get women excited.

It was an analogy...would you be really offended if I fucked your mom? In a church no less? Yes, I bet you would be....it wasn't a serious comment about fucking your mom. 'Sometimes guys with little dicks don't get women excited?' Come on, if you're going to try to slam me, do it right. (You would know about whether or not little dicks get women excited, now wouldn't you?) See, there's a slam...mine wasn't a slam, it was an analogy....don't make this a flame war. I call you a moron because you don't understand a word I'm asying and I repeat myself....it's a label, nothing against you. I have nothing against stupid people, but I do get frustrated with them.

Anyway, you said you are not mad, all I've been doing is trying to explain few points to you and you call me moron, use your F words and now talking about my mom, sheesh...., I thought you were more educated or at least a little more mature to avoid offensive comments.

You're not explaining anything! You're just saying the exact opposite of whatever I'm saying and not giving any basis for your opinion. Oh, no, not the F word! FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK....that hurts no one, and it wasn't directed at you. Offensive? You're not offended, you just said I had a little dick. If you were offended you'd say that...but you're not. Educated? You gotta be kidding me....I've said several times I've taken coaching classes at the university level, plus I study basketball when I watch it. I also know some history (like when P Jackson went to the bulls, about the triangle and its origins), and I can form a sentence that isn't confusing. They may be to you, but you don't infer anything. If I had to type out every single one of my thoughts so you would know exactly what I'm talking about, it'd be a longer post than this one. I don't have the time or patience to do that.

Don't take it wrong but in your case I know well you don't like the idea of the Lakers getting this team, and I'll tell you something: I'm not a Queens' fan but I get happy for them getting a better team and I do recognize they are tough when they get those guys in court, so why can't all of you get happy for the Lakers and have a good time?

You call them the Queens and say you're happy for them ...that makes sense....

I don't hate the Lakers, per se, I hate their ignorant, arrogant fans, and the Lakers have a lot of those....