Michael Jordan: "I would beat Kobe in my prime"

Didn't you read his post shadow?

There's no question Kobe would dominate this battle.

THERE IS NO QUESTION. It is so cemented as reality it cannot even be questioned. To question it would be pure unadulterated blasphemy.

I can't wait for the day where heretics like you swing from the gallows.

Kobe is a better offensive player in my opinion. If he gets on a roll, there's no possible way that Jordan or anyone in the world can stop him.

But a stomach virus can't stop a sickly Jordan from scoring 38 pts. in a game 5 win of the 97 Finals against the Jazz, while Kobe can be stopped by Paul Pierce in the second half of a Finals game.

Wait a second here, shadowgrin, the defense that Celtics used on Kobe and the Lakers(box and one, 3-2 zone) was one of the best defensive performances of all time. These Celtics, by many analysts and NBA experts are pronounced to be the best defensive rotational team ever, even Jordan wouldn't have done anything against this kind of defense, with this kind of a team, which couldn't attack the basket because of two giants under there(KG and Perks), today's defensive specialists like Posey and Battier are way stronger and quicker than players who guarded Jordana at his era(Gerald Wilkins, Joe Dumars, John Starks) you saw what Battier did with Kobe in that last game they won of their 22-game winning streak, he just put a hand in his face, sometimes you don't see the basket, you don't score. I Jordan's era no one could put a hand in Jordan's face, because he was such a good athlete, the way he jumped for j's was really quick and high and no defender was able to make him miss that fade-away. In jordan's era some of the zone defenses were not allowed(prior to 01-02, they were accepted, due to stop Shaq, didn't really help) stuff like "Zone sandwich" where to players simply squish Kobe not allowing him to accept the basketball. Pierce never really defend Kobe on his own, there were two three even four defenders coming at him stopping him from driving and on jumpshots Posey was all over his face. Defense is just better these days, people say that the three second rule and hand-checking made it way harder, yes it did make it a little harder, but the isolations that Jordan faced were a lot easier to beat than double and triple teams that Kobe faced almost on every possession against Celtics.

even Jordan wouldn't have done anything against this kind of defense, with this kind of a team, which couldn't attack the basket because of two giants under there(KG and Perks)

Oh yes, KG and Perkins are definitely better than James Edwards, Rodman and Laimbeer's defense and dirty tactics.

today's defensive specialists like Posey and Battier are way stronger and quicker than players who guarded Jordana at his era(Gerald Wilkins, Joe Dumars, John Starks)

Definitely. Players from Detroit and New York guarding Jordan are so weak and slow that their only hope is to be physical against him. Plus, the rules of today which are less physical compared to the past just highlights how amazing Posey and Battier are because they can play defense with the physical restrictions imposed on today.

the isolations that Jordan faced were a lot easier to beat than double and triple teams that Kobe faced almost on every possession against Celtics

Yeah, no wonder Jordan was such a ballhog, it was so easy going to the basket against weak and slow but physical defending teams.

I have so many misconceptions and errors in my opinion that benji may see me hanging in the gallows.

Kobe is a better offensive player in my opinion. If he gets on a roll, there's no possible way that Jordan or anyone in the world can stop him.

But a stomach virus can't stop a sickly Jordan from scoring 38 pts. in a game 5 win of the 97 Finals against the Jazz, while Kobe can be stopped by Paul Pierce in the second half of a Finals game.

Wait a second here, shadowgrin, the defense that Celtics used on Kobe and the Lakers(box and one, 3-2 zone) was one of the best defensive performances of all time. These Celtics, by many analysts and NBA experts are pronounced to be the best defensive rotational team ever, even Jordan wouldn't have done anything against this kind of defense, with this kind of a team, which couldn't attack the basket because of two giants under there(KG and Perks), today's defensive specialists like Posey and Battier are way stronger and quicker than players who guarded Jordana at his era(Gerald Wilkins, Joe Dumars, John Starks) you saw what Battier did with Kobe in that last game they won of their 22-game winning streak, he just put a hand in his face, sometimes you don't see the basket, you don't score. I Jordan's era no one could put a hand in Jordan's face, because he was such a good athlete, the way he jumped for j's was really quick and high and no defender was able to make him miss that fade-away. In jordan's era some of the zone defenses were not allowed(prior to 01-02, they were accepted, due to stop Shaq, didn't really help) stuff like "Zone sandwich" where to players simply squish Kobe not allowing him to accept the basketball. Pierce never really defend Kobe on his own, there were two three even four defenders coming at him stopping him from driving and on jumpshots Posey was all over his face. Defense is just better these days, people say that the three second rule and hand-checking made it way harder, yes it did make it a little harder, but the isolations that Jordan faced were a lot easier to beat than double and triple teams that Kobe faced almost on every possession against Celtics.

ur saying like jordan never faced any d. jordan always was faced by double teams and best defender on opponent. and jordan's team was considered the best ever in every aspect of the game including in defence. boston's d is superb but then lakers' offence was nowhere near the best in history. so it's quite stupid to say "jordan couldn't have dont nothing just like kobe". and the three second rule didn't really make it harder for players to score. it's actually vice versa. with three second rule gone, average stats increased in almost all categories.

and i'm not even kobe hater. i'm rather a kobe fan as he's the closest player to mj atm. but as i watched both era, it's true that mj in prime was a much better player in every aspect than kobe.

Oh yes, KG and Perkins are definitely better than James Edwards, Rodman and Laimbeer's defense and dirty tactics.

I assume you are joking, and this is only an ironic remark, right?

Besides, you still had John Salley and Rick Mahorn to spell that three-headed monster.

Boston had Glen Davis, Brown and Powe?

I forgot Rick Mahorn!

Brown could possibly be a match for those mentioned.
But I doubt someone nicknamed "Big Baby" would be able to step up against someone like Laimbeer.

It doesn't matter anyway.
According to some people '08 Boston bigmen >>> 80's Detroit bigmen.
Just accept other's opinions okay? No questions asked.

Garnett's a tough decent defender though. He may not be as dirty as the 80s Pistons but he brings the same passion and thus stamina and footwork in combination with a great timing as a weakside help defender. Perkins is underrated but surely far away from being compared to anybody in the past.

So except Garnett I actually would not call any Celtic of this year an extraordinary defender (not even Posey!). The Celtics had a good team defense and a nice rotation but although I lack of proofs with this statement: I think Jordan would have found ways to break this D.

Anyone under fifteen won't remeber a thing about MJ, or anybody else of that 80's 90's transition, for that matter.

That's why I'm surprised the results favour MJ so much, a lot of the older guys don't post or even lurk as much anymore. That's not to say anyone under the age of 20 has no respect for players of yesteryear or the history of the game, far from it, but you do get a lot of people who believe MJ was nothing but hype and Kobe is the far superior player.

There's no question Kobe would dominate this battle.

On what grounds? That Michael Jordan was a subpar athlete with limited basketball abilities? Both players are too good for there to be absolutely no question either way.

however it suxed to see jordan fail in running a basketball team. he was too demanding and has too big of ego. kwame even cried and up untill today, he's still scared of jordan. lol. no wonder that lots of teammates and players hated jordan.

I won't argue that Michael Jordan is a genius in the front office or cut out to be a coach because he hasn't really displayed any shrewdness in those areas but whether or not he was too demanding is questionable. Players are expected to give 100% and players like Jordan and Larry Bird would demand that of their teammates in no uncertain terms because that's the standard they set for themselves. Sometimes it caused tension, but it got results. That's the way things worked.

However, today's players are spoiled and pampered, expecting to be handed everything on a silver plate and be treated like royalty. Kwame Brown's mental fragility is always blamed on Michael Jordan but at the end of the day, it reflects badly on him as well. Jordan took that approach with teammates back in the day and what did they do? They got angry and they went out and played hard to prove themselves. Kwame metaphorically rolled into a ball and whimpered.

However, today's players are spoiled and pampered, expecting to be handed everything on a silver plate and be treated like royalty.

So true. Watching games from the 80's is such a huge contrast to now. Players were so disciplined and relentless. The Lakers, Bulls, Knicks, Celtics and Pistons were tough as nails, physically and mentally.

Last edited by cyanide on Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

I forgot Rick Mahorn!

1 Brown could possibly be a match for those mentioned.
2 But I doubt someone nicknamed "Big Baby" would be able to step up against someone like Laimbeer.

It doesn't matter anyway.
According to some people '08 Boston bigmen >>> 80's Detroit bigmen.
Just accept other's opinions okay? No questions asked.

1. Sure. When He was in his prime...
2. He would make a nice, wide, punching bag.

I do accept others opinions, if they can back it up.
I really thought you were being ironic, hence my question, because it is a surprise that someone would underestimate that Detroit's frontline to the point of saying that Perkins would be anything but a scrub in that team, and, mind you, I'm a Boston's fan

Who are those that say '08 Boston bigmen >>> 80's Detroit bigmen?
I will unleash Laimbeer, Rodman and Mahorn on them...

I really thought you were being ironic, hence my question, because it is a surprise that someone would underestimate that Detroit's frontline to the point of saying that Perkins would be anything but a scrub in that team, and, mind you, I'm a Boston's fan

Yes, I was.
I suck at sarcasm, now I suck at irony too. Geez.

Last edited by shadowgrin on Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

That's not meant as a nazi insignia.

now I suck at irony too. Geez

^

That's the problem of comunication in the internet Era. A lot is lost in translation.


But at least, now I know were you stand, and in the future I will tune up my IRONY ALERT when reading your posts

id say in a best of 7 games (1 on 1 to 21 points), Jordan would beat Kobe 4 games to 2, but they would be damn competitive. i dont think either could shut the other down, and both can score at will. Kobe has better range, but Jordan shoots a higher %. its all relative, anybody at that skill level can beat anybody near or above their own level on any given day. who was hot at the time? who got off first? its like a MMA match, you never know what you are going to get, one mistake... and its over. Jordan in his prime has an edge over the current version of Kobe, but we don't even know if Kobe is in his prime yet. remember too, that Kobe isnt retired yet. when you look at his stats when he retires in 10 years, then you can fairly compare the two players statistically. hell, Lebron may eventually overshadow both of them. you never know. the point is, there is no one on one games played in the NBA so all of this is speculation. maybe there should be a tournament at the All Star Game Weekend.

to say Kobe is stronger than MJ is irrelevant, and there is no way to prove that.
Shaq was stronger than Olajuwon in that finals appearance in the 90's, but before Shaq hit his prime, that strength didnt matter. Hakeem owned him. Shaq was the better athlete, but Hakeem had more weapons. now, the Shaq that won those 3 titles matched with that 1994/95Olajuwon would be a tighter matchup... that i think would favor Shaq.

ive watched basketball since 1986 when i was 10 years old, i have seen many games. Kobe is on the brink of what Jordan was in his prime... but until he wins 3-4 more titles, advantage Jordan. 4 games to 2

Kobe is a better offensive player in my opinion. If he gets on a roll, there's no possible way that Jordan or anyone in the world can stop him.

But a stomach virus can't stop a sickly Jordan from scoring 38 pts. in a game 5 win of the 97 Finals against the Jazz, while Kobe can be stopped by Paul Pierce in the second half of a Finals game.

Wait a second here, shadowgrin, the defense that Celtics used on Kobe and the Lakers(box and one, 3-2 zone) was one of the best defensive performances of all time. These Celtics, by many analysts and NBA experts are pronounced to be the best defensive rotational team ever, even Jordan wouldn't have done anything against this kind of defense, with this kind of a team, which couldn't attack the basket because of two giants under there(KG and Perks), today's defensive specialists like Posey and Battier are way stronger and quicker than players who guarded Jordana at his era(Gerald Wilkins, Joe Dumars, John Starks) you saw what Battier did with Kobe in that last game they won of their 22-game winning streak, he just put a hand in his face, sometimes you don't see the basket, you don't score. I Jordan's era no one could put a hand in Jordan's face, because he was such a good athlete, the way he jumped for j's was really quick and high and no defender was able to make him miss that fade-away. In jordan's era some of the zone defenses were not allowed(prior to 01-02, they were accepted, due to stop Shaq, didn't really help) stuff like "Zone sandwich" where to players simply squish Kobe not allowing him to accept the basketball. Pierce never really defend Kobe on his own, there were two three even four defenders coming at him stopping him from driving and on jumpshots Posey was all over his face. Defense is just better these days, people say that the three second rule and hand-checking made it way harder, yes it did make it a little harder, but the isolations that Jordan faced were a lot easier to beat than double and triple teams that Kobe faced almost on every possession against Celtics.

ur saying like jordan never faced any d. jordan always was faced by double teams and best defender on opponent. and jordan's team was considered the best ever in every aspect of the game including in defence. boston's d is superb but then lakers' offence was nowhere near the best in history. so it's quite stupid to say "jordan couldn't have dont nothing just like kobe". and the three second rule didn't really make it harder for players to score. it's actually vice versa. with three second rule gone, average stats increased in almost all categories.

and i'm not even kobe hater. i'm rather a kobe fan as he's the closest player to mj atm. but as i watched both era, it's true that mj in prime was a much better player in every aspect than kobe.

No, you don't get what I meant to say. Shadowgrin was saying that Kobe was stopped by Paul Pierce, I'm just trying to prove that he wasn't and that he faced more double teams and triple teams in these finals, than Jordan had faced in any series. That defenders are now more athletic and stronger. Not that the defense back then was easier to deal with, I'm simply trying to prove that stopping Kobe was a whole Celtics team's credit, not Paul Pierce's alone.

even Jordan wouldn't have done anything against this kind of defense, with this kind of a team, which couldn't attack the basket because of two giants under there(KG and Perks)

Oh yes, KG and Perkins are definitely better than James Edwards, Rodman and Laimbeer's defense and dirty tactics.

I'm talking about not only the defense of KG and Perks, but more about the team-mates that Kobe and Jordan had(who would rather have Gasol or Hugh Grant?) against a defensive minded physical team like Celtics...

No, you don't get what I meant to say. Shadowgrin was saying that Kobe was stopped by Paul Pierce, I'm just trying to prove that he wasn't and that he faced more double teams and triple teams in these finals, than Jordan had faced in any series. That defenders are now more athletic and stronger. Not that the defense back then was easier to deal with, I'm simply trying to prove that stopping Kobe was a whole Celtics team's credit, not Paul Pierce's alone.
...
I'm talking about not only the defense of KG and Perks, but more about the team-mates that Kobe and Jordan had(who would rather have Gasol or Hugh Grant?) against a defensive minded physical team like Celtics...

Maybe this will help.

The Jordan Rules
by Jack McCallum


"
The guiding principle is that a defender is never left to guard Jordan unaided. Jordan's position on the floor dictates whether the Pistons trap him with a second defender or have the second defender play "help and recover" (that is, run at Jordan to stop his dribble, but then scramble back to his own man; Salley is a master at this ploy). The closer Jordan is to the basket, the more the Pistons go with the trap. When he is above the sideline hash mark (28 feet from the baseline), they usually play help and recover.

Even when Jordan is far from the basket, perhaps bringing up the ball as a point guard on a wide-open floor, Detroit runs a second player at him, someone like Salley or Rodman. This reduces the amount of open court that he has to work with and often forces him to give up the ball to a teammate. The Pistons always want someone else to handle the ball. Not sometimes. Always.

When Jordan has the ball on the wing, the Detroit player guarding him forces him toward defensive help. Most often that means turning Jordan to the right when he's on the left side of the floor and to the left when he's on the right side.

If Jordan happens to get isolated with one man and is in a potential scoring position, the Piston defender will try to force him to go left. They think he makes a stronger, more explosive move to his right. So does Jordan.

When Jordan tries to run a pick-and-roll, Detroit traps him. That means that two men, the one guarding Jordan and the one guarding the Bull setting the pick, run at him. The Pistons do this with remarkable efficiency, partly because that second defender is usually the 6 ft. 11 in. Salley or the 6 ft. 11 in. Laimbeer. The tall trappers make it almost impossible for Jordan to deliver the ball to a teammate rolling toward the basket, and their aggressive charge toward Jordan usually forces him to retreat.

When Jordan posts up near the basket, Detroit typically puts three men on him, with Dumars most often behind him, using his strong hips and legs to "body" Jordan away from the basket. When the entry pass comes in from the point guard, Thomas leaves that guard and double-teams Jordan. If that means the point guard is free, so be it. Meanwhile, another defender, perhaps Laimbeer or Salley, will have come over and planted himself in the lane, maybe on the baseline side, maybe toward the middle. Dumars will then turn Jordan toward that help. Jordan loves the baseline. "Even though there's less room down there, I can be more creative," he says. But by and large, the Pistons take it away from him.

When Jordan comes off a screen set near the baseline -- his most frequent maneuver when he's playing shooting guard -- a host of Jordan Rules come into play. Dumars must follow him around the screen -- no matter if he has to go into the bleachers -- to prevent Jordan from making a backdoor cut and receiving an alley-oop pass for an almost certain dunk. The Piston -- usually Laimbeer -- guarding the Bull setting the pick will step out to make Jordan receive the ball farther from the basket. In addition -- and this is important -- that man will guard against Jordan's making a "tight curl" off the top of the screen and suddenly looping back into the middle to take a short pass on the dead run, a circumstance that is almost always disastrous for the defense.

In most cases Jordan will have to step back and take the pass on the wing. Then Thomas will come over, creating a double team, and the process begins all over again. If Jordan puts the ball on the floor, at least two players stay on him, pushing him toward even more help. If he passes, the weakside defenders adjust to play two Pistons against four Bulls or one against three. As long as Jordan is out of the picture, they love those odds.
"

edit:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkPK9sGa7Y8[/youtube]
also worth watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12OxIR0MYRM

So true. Watching games from the 80's is such a huge contrast to now. Players were so disciplined and relentless. The Lakers, Bulls, Knicks, Celtics and Pistons were tough as nails, physically and mentally.

Indeed. Of course, in all fairness they still had their egos but they accepted the notion of put up or shut up when it came to playing the game. Today, there seems to be a sense of "This is what I'm entitled to" rather than "This is what I've earned". I could be way off on this one but Darko has often struck me as that sort of player the way he's talked about being mistreated and deserving so much better.

anybody at that skill level can beat anybody near or above their own level on any given day. who was hot at the time? who got off first? its like a MMA match, you never know what you are going to get, one mistake... and its over.

Absolutely. One game would not be enough to decide, indeed several games might not be enough to decide but when the matchup may simply be determined by who is able to draw first blood (metaphorically, in this case) or who makes the first mistake a single game for all the marbles wouldn't be a fair assessment.

Jordan in his prime has an edge over the current version of Kobe, but we don't even know if Kobe is in his prime yet.

That's an interesting question, whether or not Kobe is in his prime yet. I would say that he is, I can't see Kobe getting any better at the game. Perhaps he can improve mentally to compensate as his athleticism begins to decline but I'd say he's already in his prime. He may only be 29 but he's also been developing at the NBA level from an earlier age and also putting his body through the NBA grind a lot longer than most players his age. I don't think he's in decline but I don't think he has much in the way of untapped potential, at least physically speaking.

(who would rather have Gasol or Hugh Grant?) against a defensive minded physical team like Celtics...

I'll have to go with Gasol, then. Not sure this guy could hold down the fort.

http://www.clangrant-us.org/images/hugh-grant.jpg



adv1s5

Nice read. I hope it gives some insight to the "easy" defenses MJ had to break. BTW, I think it was written by Sam Smith, not Mc Callum. That one did the Suns Book instead.

Mr. Pursuer, I would love to talk more about basketball with you but as Mr. Vintage noticed...

I'm talking about not only the defense of KG and Perks, but more about the team-mates that Kobe and Jordan had(who would rather have Gasol or Hugh Grant?) against a defensive minded physical team like Celtics...

I think I'll pass and leave you alone.

No need for explaining MJ is the best..period.

New technology on the shoes.

Damn that was one post alright. Yes the Hyperdunks are so light that they can propel the player to new heights!1!!1

(who would rather have Gasol or Hugh Grant?) against a defensive minded physical team like Celtics...

I'll have to go with Gasol, then. Not sure this guy could hold down the fort.

http://www.clangrant-us.org/images/hugh-grant.jpg



adv1s5

Nice read. I hope it gives some insight to the "easy" defenses MJ had to break. BTW, I think it was written by Sam Smith, not Mc Callum. That one did the Suns Book instead.

I am very sorry for mixing Horace Grant's name with Hugh Grant's could you ever forgive me?

^

It's all good. It was a good laugh, after all.

By the way, congrats on Lithuania's victory today.

I voted Jordan, because their isn't a great disparity on quickness on both players. one on one games tend to end up as bump and grind, wear down the opponent type games, where Jordan will dominate because he is the stronger and better back against the basket offensive player. Kobe isn't going to blast away Jordan with treys either, as Jordan "in his prime", was the league leader in steals. Meaning, it would be difficult to shoot over him all the time.

But ultimately, Kobe has no chance of beating Jordan, because of the greatest weapon Jordan had in the 90's, that even Magic Johnson and Larry Bird feared. The "Jordan Call".