Pistons eye Melo

I did count three pointers. They are different because they're worth an extra point. Wallace shot around 50% because of that, while O'Neal is closer to 45%, while jacking up 25-75% more shots.

Fair enough in that sense. I would rather O'neal shooting a lower % though and have him closer to the basket. Some easy offensive putbacks would do us nicely.

Height isn't a big deal to me. Height gives a great player an advantage, but can't save a lousy player. I can live with Maxiell's height if he continues to play like he does.

Inconsistently?
He had some very lousy stretches there...

the only starters to show up for games five and six.

Billups showed up for the last quarter in game 5. He played like horseshit in the first 3. Stuckey outplayed him, and we outplayed Boston when Stuckey was on the floor, if for no other reason than there was more hustle and energy.
As soon as Billups came in we turned to shit.

You lose enough regular season games and you don't make the playoffs...

I'm saying I would rather trade Billups if he is going to keep playing with no energy and play the young guys, even if it means sacrificing a few reg season wins.
We will go nowhere further with this team as currently constructed, and I'm sick of watching us go out and lay eggs simply due to lack of focus and energy.

That game against the Lakers epitomises how I wish our season would go (aside from the loss...but it was still a close game)
We played the young guys, and they were great - and it fueled our team.

What did I incorrectly assume? Enlighten me.

I never said you incorrectly assumed, I simply said you assume.

See. Anyone can play this stupid and laughable prepubescent game. It is boring, and not even worthy of this forum.

What prepubescent game? I said wow and you go nuts. That's your problem, not mine.

But by all means, keep editing your posts.

Firstly, Melo should be out of the USA team.

wtf?!? Melo is USA's best player....without Melo, the US has no chance of winning gold....Melo's game is perfectly suited to the international style of game....

USA's best player?
you can't even put the word "best" next to his name at any league..

obviously you haven't been paying any attention to the US team....in the international game, Melo is much more important of a player to team US than say a Lebron James or Dwayne Wade....no comparison....in the international game, hitting midrange jumpshots & perimeter jumpshots are important....

You don't even put Kobe in your claim. I think you're the one who's not paying much attention to the US team. They haven't won any gold with the media claiming Melo is the best US player yet.

Anyway, to the nuggets, just listen to this fan..

why would I mention Kobe? I didn't realise he had done anything in the international game....until he proves he can play in international game at the Olympics or World Champs, he doesn't figure into the equation....sure, he was a superb lockdown defender in qualifiers, but I will wait & see & be happy to eat humble pie if he is indeed the man on Team USA at Olympics....

who do you think the best player on the Original Dream Team was? I expect your answer to be MJ....my pick would naturally be Charles Barkley....we're not talking NBA career here, we're talking Olympic competition....

Jordan played very good on the 1984 team.

yes true, I did mean 1992 Olympics, but ahh well, I shouldn't have mentioned the last half a dozen words....

I am curious to see what role Kobe will play in getting them gold again....I still think Melo will be their leading scorer & most consistent offensive threat....but with Kobe's lockdown defensive ability, you never know....

my whole point though was responding to the comment that Melo shouldn't be in the team....he definitely should ahead of the likes of Wade & Lebron, that's for sure....

Ahead of Wade? Yes. Lebron? I don't know about that one. Carmelo played really well in the 2006 world championships (as you pointed out) but Lebron was, in my opinion, the best player in the NBA this past season. Now I acknowledge that the NBA is different to international basketball, but the top tier usually play very good in international basketball.

Depends how Lebron's midrange to 3pt shot is. Always been one of the few weaknesses of his game (free throws being the other).

Either way, for the first time since the 2000 Olympics, I'm picking US to win gold. They'll come together, play team defence & dominate. Although they will be scared if & when they have an off shooting night & other team gets the 3 ball going.

Either way, for the first time since the 2000 Olympics, I'm picking US to win gold.

LOL! There's only been one olympics in between Sydney and Beijing! Haha...

I still think they are not selecting the best possible players. No KG?

Depends how Lebron's midrange to 3pt shot is. Always been one of the few weaknesses of his game (free throws being the other).

Either way, for the first time since the 2000 Olympics, I'm picking US to win gold. They'll come together, play team defence & dominate. Although they will be scared if & when they have an off shooting night & other team gets the 3 ball going.

If lebron can dominate the driving game in the NBA like he has been....why would he need the long range shot in the international games? Is their inside defensive presence too tremendous? lol. Only time lebron will be jacking up 3 pointers is when he feels like doing it for the fuck of it.

Your boy melo dominates the international game because of his big inside game.

But he still dominates it, no question.

I never said you incorrectly assumed, I simply said you assume.

Yes, and so do you. It is required in communication because we are not all psychics therefore we must infer from context the meaning of others statements. When I properly inferred your reason for posting, you did your standard little juvenille dance and said I misinterpreted you, but then as always when asked to kindly clarify, you refused.

But by all means, keep editing your posts

I don't see how this is a sin. Especially to correct spelling errors and restructure organization for better reading and understanding. Considering how "assuming" is also now apparently a sin, it is best to make sure I'm clear.

But this is enough. Your obsession with me and desire to endlessly post about me, without actually discussing anything I've said outside of delving into a faux-postmodernist deconstruction on the nature of reality and communication, is cute but I'm sure everyone is tired of it. I'm far from interesting enough, and you're far from honest enough. Since you've argued your posts do not actually contain any meaning, even when they look like they're responding to the topic as in the thread. Therefore, I'm afraid, my dear, this dance is over, and I'll have to leave you on the dancefloor. I'm sure you can find another guy to take you home in the morning.
.....
Anyway, to someone who actually wants to discuss topics...my friend, Lax.

We will go nowhere further with this team as currently constructed, and I'm sick of watching us go out and lay eggs simply due to lack of focus and energy.

Well, this is clearly why we disagree. I don't think this team is done. They've been to the Eastern Conference Finals three years in a row. They lost in 2006 (McDyess was basically a sixth starter, and Evans didn't even crack 1200 minutes) and 2007 (Webber was a band-aid, Murray was a disaster) because they had no bench. This year they ran into a better team in the Celtics juggernaut, and in the playoffs Flip started to slowly do away with the bench that was so successful during the regular season.

Ratliff and Hunter were suddenly key players in the rotation for example. Both had as many or more fouls than points in the playoffs. And Flip clearly had no idea how to use Hunter, throwing him at Pierce for extended periods. While Hunter attempted to defend like he was 27 instead of 37. Games 3-4-5 from him were astounding, yet Flip kept throwing him out there in the clutch. I know Afflalo is nothing special, but he was a really good defender during the season, and it's not like he's worse offensively than Hunter. Nobody could guard Pierce (or would, in Hayes case...) but I think Afflalo would've done better than Hunter did on Allen, who just saw Hunter as a reason to drive.

Inconsistently?
He had some very lousy stretches there...

He also had plenty of fantastic ones. The biggest problem, for the young guys, was that the veterans outside of Rip and occasionally Billups (when on the floor with enough of them) wouldn't regularly pass to the younger guys. They didn't trust them, and Flip didn't either, so he didn't lay down the law and make the case that the bench is what wins titles. Indeed, Flip even went more to the veterans even if they stunk, especially with Prince and Wallace, the lousier they played, the more Flip kept playing them. Even though the team could've used Maxiell and Johnson out there even if only to force the Celtics to change up their defense.

Billups showed up for the last quarter in game 5. He played like horseshit in the first 3. Stuckey outplayed him, and we outplayed Boston when Stuckey was on the floor, if for no other reason than there was more hustle and energy. As soon as Billups came in we turned to shit.

This wasn't my recollection so I checked. Stuckey was on the floor without Billups during two Pistons runs, but he wasn't playing well during the first. Billups had a stint where he scored seven points and shot 59.5% with one turnover. He left the floor with the Pistons down one. Stuckey came in and had a stint where he scored three points on 30.7% shooting. He left for Billups with the team up four or five. Billups came in and shot 0/2 to end the half, one of which I believe was the last shot of the half, and the Celtics went on 14-1 run as Prince and Wallace also returned to the court.

Billups then scored nine points on 76.5% shooting in the third, with one turnover, but Rip scored only one point and Ratliff was on the court for almost the entire quarter. Celtics had 10-3 and 11-2 runs. Stuckey returned alongside Billups, scored two points on 50% shooting with a turnover and two fouls. Then Flip replaced Billups with Hunter for a seven minute stint. Stuckey got hot and scored eight points on 70.9% shooting staying in the entire fourth quarter. Billups returned for the final five minutes and scored nine points on 66.6% shooting. Wallace and Prince were also on the court, Wallace shot 25% in the fourth, and Prince took no shots. Rip was great though, nine points on 90% shooting and an offensive board. Him, Stuckey and McDyess, keyed a 10-1 run, and Billups joined Rip to key the final 9-2 run.

Yeah, the Pistons were down while Billups was out there, but it was more of a case, in my opinion, that Billups was keeping the Pistons barely alive, not killing them. I don't even see Stuckey or Billups as the problem in that game, but instead, again Prince and Wallace being on the floor even when they've stopped contributing. (We shouldn't forget that Garnett was going off in that game, so it's not like Sheed was even getting in his way.) Game Six is even better, during the Pistons 18-4 third quarter run, Stuckey came in, not for Billups, but for Wallace. (Admittingly, that was Prince's best quarter in the Conf. Finals, but he again disappeared in the fourth not even taking a shot in the last five and a half minutes.)

Fair enough in that sense. I would rather O'neal shooting a lower % though and have him closer to the basket.

Yeah, but the guy has taken 73%, 69%, 67% and 71% of his shots as jumpers outside the paint for his last four seasons. Shooting 36%, 37%, 38%, 40% on those. It's his few dunks (6% of attempts in three of the four years) and low number of post-ups that get him to even his low shooting percentage.

Some easy offensive putbacks would do us nicely.

Then O'Neal's not the man for you. He had two tips last year, eight tips the year before, eleven the year before that, and zero in 2004-05. Twenty-one in the last four years. You want someone like Jeff Foster, who took 64% of his shots inside and made 65.5%, while racking up seventeen tips this season. He's also the best offensive rebounder in the league over the last five years or so I believe.

He's not going to make $21 million though. Which probably helps contribute to the Pacers lack of desire to give him up. Even if his awesome play doesn't.

I don't think this was a good year to decide to blow things up completely. Depending on how Afflalo, Johnson, Stuckey, and Samb develop, along with their, Maxiell's and Herrmann's fitting into the rotation this team could have one of the best benches in the league next year with the same guys. With a coach willing to play young guys who play well over "proven" veterans, I think they would easily be contenders. It is why I prefer a smaller deal along the lines of a Wallace for Foster, or Hayes for J.R. Smith, (only the latter of which I consider realistic) than a major trade that shifts the entire team for second or third tier stars (would the latter be faux-stars?) like Anthony and O'Neal.

benij, talking about Jeff Foster's 65% inside the paint, those 65% are 2 baskets. I don't think there's any possibility that a good GM would trade valuable Rasheed Wallace for an underrated, underrmarketed, with good IQ, but not even an all-star caliber player. That wouldn't happen.

i would rather have a guy who is gonna be highly productive and not ruin my teams chances of winning the game, kinda like how wallace did in games against the celtics

You and I define "good GM" differently. And also apparently "valuable."

benij, talking about Jeff Foster's 65% inside the paint, those 65% are 2 baskets.

Foster took 3.1 shots per game inside last season, Sheed took 1.7. Foster also drew over twice as many fouls.

All while shooting better, and being a super hott offensive rebounder.

Valuable for me, means a good player who can help a team. In the NBA, valuable player is someone who sells tickets, who helps a team and who is a much better player. In that case, I'd still go with Rasheed Wallace, no matter what.

EDIT: Actually I'd go with Foster, if that'd be what my team needs.

Either way, for the first time since the 2000 Olympics, I'm picking US to win gold.

LOL! There's only been one olympics in between Sydney and Beijing! Haha...

I still think they are not selecting the best possible players. No KG?

I was under the impression that they also gave out gold medals at the 2002 & 2006 World Championships....if I am wrong, my mistake

I'd have to agree that KG would make a good centre in the international game....

Well yes they do, I am wrong. I just dont place much value in the world championships...

Some stuff about flip, and a whole lot of stats

I don't mean to make everything you said sound contrived and useless, but I'm going to quote the whole lot as opposed to just parts of it...

Its no surprise Flip is a fucking moron. Yes, he had some of his best coaching EVER in the playoffs. It seemed he had finally figured out a good rotation to use, and good defensive matchups, but then he never played affalo, hardly played amir, played Theo for the entire 3rd quarter of game 5, and that pretty much fucked up his entire resume.
I'm excited to see a new coach come in, even if it is a few years too late...

As for all those stats you gave, (where the hell did you find them...) it says nothing about the defensive end. Thats where we got done, and from what I saw, it was because Billups wasn't playing with the energy to stop his man - it didnt even look like he was trying...

Yeah, but the guy has taken 73%, 69%, 67% and 71% of his shots as jumpers outside the paint for his last four seasons. Shooting 36%, 37%, 38%, 40% on those. It's his few dunks (6% of attempts in three of the four years) and low number of post-ups that get him to even his low shooting percentage.

How far outside the paint?
And would having a good PG and a better team in general give him the ability to get closer to the basket?

Im just looking at his rebounding numbers, and there aren't really as good as I assumed... I thought pre-injury-riddled-seasons he was rebounding at around 11-12 a game, and was 9-10 now.
But he was 10 before, and is 8 now... We may as well keep Sheed if thats the sort of production he would give us...

I would still like to see if Kander could work his magic on JOneal and get him to where he used to be, but unfortunately his massive contract isn't one I wanna take that risk on anymore...

Wallace for foster

yuck...

If we trade Billups, Sheed for Foster + Tinsley could work.

Tinsley? I love the guy, but he's expensive, made of glass and couldn't shoot to save his life.

i would trade sheed for a box of tissue, would probably be tougher and get you more boards when they count

I don't mean to make everything you said sound contrived and useless, but I'm going to quote the whole lot as opposed to just parts of it...

Oh, it's pretty useless, I just wanted to type out a narrative for game five for reference instead of having to look back at the game over and over.

As for all those stats you gave, (where the hell did you find them...) it says nothing about the defensive end. Thats where we got done, and from what I saw, it was because Billups wasn't playing with the energy to stop his man - it didnt even look like he was trying...

It's not like Stuckey was ever trying this season though. Yeah, Billups will only body up his man to use his size and he's somehow really good on pick and rolls most of the time, but Stuckey basically looks endlessly for the steal and won't stop anyone from driving. He's a rookie so he'll get disciplined or lazy as the years pass, but right now he's hardly anything special.

Game Five (Speaking of which, jeez, didn't realize Perkins had 18/16 5 oreb, 2stls, 2blks in that one.)

And would having a good PG and a better team in general give him the ability to get closer to the basket?

From what I have seen, O'Neal will post high, then step back to shoot jumpers. He seems to have little interest in getting to the basket. Even going back to 2002-2004, latter being the 61 win season, he's at 68% jumpers (39% shooting) and 73% (38%).

Im just looking at his rebounding numbers, and there aren't really as good as I assumed...

Only once has he been in the top ten in total and offensive rebounding %, 2000-01 when he was 7th and 9th. That was a different role in his first year starting in the league, and his last using under 25% of possessions.

If we trade Billups, Sheed for Foster + Tinsley could work

Ouch. I've included Tinsley's last two seasons below.

TS% (essentially, points scored per shot), Oreb% (% of avaliable offensive rebounds grabbed), Tov% (% of possessions on which they turned it over), Ast% (% of team baskets assisted on), Usg% (% of team possessions used), FlDr% (% of possessions drawing a shooting foul), Ortg (Dean Oliver's measure of offensive production, basically points produced per possession)
[table][mrow]Player[mcol]TS%[mcol]Oreb%[mcol]Tov%[mcol]Ast%[mcol]Usg%[mcol]FlDr%[mcol]Ortg
[row]Billups0708[col].619[col]2.0[col]13.0[col]34.7[col]23.0[col]13.1[col]127
[row]Tinsley0708[col].458[col]2.0[col]20.4[col]38.8[col]21.3[col]5.3[col]96
[row]Tinsley0607[col].465[col]3.0[col]23.9[col]38.5[col]23.9[col]8.4[col]98[/table]

Dreb% (obvious), Blk% (% of opposing shots blocked)
[table][mrow]Player[mcol]TS%[mcol]Oreb%[mcol]Dreb%[mcol]Tov%[mcol]Usg%[mcol]Blk%[mcol]FlDr%[mcol]Ortg
[row]Wallace0708[col].523[col]4.3[col]21.8[col]8.4[col]20.5[col]3.5[col]7.0[col]108
[row]Foster0708[col].568[col]15.0[col]23.8[col]12.4[col]11.5[col]1.0[col]12.7[col]126[/table]

I didnt mean billups and sheed, i meant if we trade billups to someone else
then trade sheed for those 2

and yes i know tinsleys crap but i would like foster... we just have no contracts aside from Dice who match it.

What kind of trade could be out there for Billups though? The only point guards I can think of comparable or better (Paul, Nash, Calderon, Deron Williams maybe) would never be traded.

Billups + Max + #29 for Brand would be nice...

Foster/Dyess/Samb
Brand/Dyess/Amir
Prince/MLE/Fabio
Rip/Afflalo
Stuckey/Tinsley

I don't know if that makes us any better...
I'd probably rather just not trade for Foster and Tinsley...

Sheed/Dyess/Samb
Brand/Dyess/Amir
Prince/Fabio or MLE
Rip/Afflalo
Stuckey/MLE

I like that lineup more

Some FA we can sign for PG/SF are:

Najera
Boykins
Pietrus
Flip Murray lol
Dickau
Quinton Ross
Jason Williams
Ricky Davis
Udrih
Garbajosa

Of them, I would really only consider:
Pietrus
Najera
Ross
Dickau
Udrih

Ross would be nice for his defence, but I'm not sure of his offensive game. I assume its pretty non-existant.

Picking up Ross and Udrih would make a nice offseason, but I think Udrih might have priced himself out of our range. Do we have the BAE to use on someone?

Sheed/Dyess/Samb
Brand/Dyess/Amir
Prince/Fabio/Ross
Rip/Afflalo
Stuckey/Udrih

That bench has little to no offence though... maybe *shudder* ricky buckets would fit

I never said you incorrectly assumed, I simply said you assume.

Yes, and so do you. It is required in communication because we are not all psychics therefore we must infer from context the meaning of others statements. When I properly inferred your reason for posting, you did your standard little juvenille dance and said I misinterpreted you, but then as always when asked to kindly clarify, you refused.

But by all means, keep editing your posts

I don't see how this is a sin. Especially to correct spelling errors and restructure organization for better reading and understanding. Considering how "assuming" is also now apparently a sin, it is best to make sure I'm clear.

I don't have to elaborate myself for you. You can call me childish or juvenile, it doesn't mean anything to me. It just shows how you're worried about your image. If you assume something, someone someone says "you're wrong" and then you demand an explanation.

Sometimes in life you don't get what you want. And if you demand someone to do something, when you're not in a position of authority, 9 times out of 10 you won't get it.

Take the second part of the quoted text for an example. Where did I ever say it was a sin to edit your posts? I simply pointed out that you edited your post. You assumed I was upset about it and it was a sin to do so.

Everyone can assume, but only an arrogant, ego driven idiot would expect himself to be right all the time and be downright offended if they are called wrong. Ben Bailey, look in the mirror.