2011 NBA Finals: Mavs V. Heat, part deux

[benji]

I don't really get this mob mentality that has been going around regarding LeBron. It's in many respects disgusting in the construction considering who is employing it.

The same thing was done to Dirk for years, and suddenly, as he HIMSELF says he's doing the same thing he's always done and suddenly it's different?

It's this absurd emotionalism that rejects reason in favor of storytelling. A sort of oral legend that when combined with our tribal mentality that illustrates our connection to what we term animals.

Since we HAVE to compare LeBron to Jordan (don't ask me!) we HAVE to note. Michael Jordan nearly lost the 1996 NBA Finals. He bombed out simply out of fatigue of the season (let's note the guy had just came back from baseball and pushed the team to 72 wins) and this let the Sonics back into a series they were already dead in. And it left one of the great moments in the game when Kemp absolutely destroyed what would have otherwise been an easy Jordan highlight basket.

Jordan shot 26% and had five turnovers in the closing game of that series.

Have you heard about this before this post or when I brought it up two years ago?

Of course not.

And we shouldn't pretend LeBron can win here. If he does take over and win, well it won't matter, he had to go off and find other stars to play with. He can't win.

Let's be clear. If you claim LeBron James is not one of the greatest players of all time, if you claim that LeBron is a loser, if you claim that LeBron is worthless. You're wrong. That's it. You're simply wrong. You don't understand basketball. Instead you have some sort of emotion need to despise those who are the best at what they do. Sorry.

I don't know why it seems LeBron has faded. The truth is, you simply cannot, if you're attempting to be objective, dismiss him because of this or the Boston series a year ago. The guy vaporized the Pistons when they were most-dominant by himself. He took it to the Celtics at their peak. And he followed that up with the greatest playoff performance in NBA history.

You're employing your own desired narrative, forcing your own emotions onto the situation and so on.

Don't get me started on the whole "who's team it is" bullshit.

At times I wonder why people debase themselves in this manner but then I realize I'm a student of history and poli sci and I properly declare "nevermind."

[shadowgrin]

I don't really get this mob mentality that has been going around regarding LeBron. It's in many respects disgusting in the construction considering who is employing it.

1) Heat hate. Deal with it. For like the next 4-5 years.
2) The better narrative for ESPN/media, that's why they're doing it. Just imagine the stories if LeBron comes back with his usual self and dismantles the Mavs' defense and offense (like he did against the Bulls) to win in game 7! They'll praise him like the second coming of Christ and even compare James to Kobe!

[Fresh8]

Dirk and Kidd and even Jet deserve to win one title - so I hope the Mavs pull off a Game 6 win to seal the deal.

[NovU]

Seems like the Mavericks fans took over the place of what once was the Lakers fans' place. If making a joke out of Dirk having a cold was such a big deal and a motivation to hate the Heat, what were all the shit talks that the Mavericks were throwing at the Heat all series long, in which the Heat players never responded to. And this notion that nobody shouldn't even dare try making little jokes on players like Dirk and Kidd since they are the only ones in the world that deserve a ring, all this while Lebron, Wade and Bosh have constantly been tainted by only god knows why hatred around, I can't say I have enjoyed any of this as a Heat fan.

I still don't believe the series is over as remaining 2 games are shifting to Miami where I think the home fans will make a difference this time around. If the Heat are able to take game 6, the momentum will shift back to the Heat and will carry over to the game 7 along with boosted confidence and spirit which the Heat have been lacking in games at Dallas.

[debiler]

And this notion that nobody shouldn't even dare try making little jokes on players like Dirk and Kidd ...

Exactly. Just because it's the finals doesn't mean that they can't have a good time joking with the cameras. Just like I said before: It doesn't hurt anybody. I'm sure even Dirk didn't mind. If it had been Shaq or Howard joking about an upcoming opponent, people would be all over their comedic talent.

[benji]

even compare James to Kobe!

You're mad!

I guess I can't understand the hate, these are people who like the Lakers, Derrick Rose and the Knicks.

One amusing part is Laker fans ranting and raving about the Heat cheating by getting three good players, and then turning around and plotting out an endless array of ways they can get Dwight for free.

In the end I'm basically just loving how much these playoffs are exposing the stupidity of the "narrative" about so many players.

Example: All these new Dirk fans entirely willing to debase his career so they can buy into the current hype train.

I want LeBron to go off for 45/15/15 and vaporize the Mavs by 20+ in the next two games just because of the "facts" and psychoanalysis of the last week even though I hate the Finals as much as any of the last six.

[deihatein]

I wish the media didn't hype Dirk that much now and compare him to the likes of Larry Bird. Even Dirk knows that he got more work to do to reach Bird level.

[The X]

I want LeBron to go off for 45/15/15 and vaporize the Mavs by 20+ in the next two games just because of the "facts" and psychoanalysis of the last week even though I hate the Finals as much as any of the last six.

And have to hear everybody say how Lebron is a God and a mix between MJ & Magic, no thanks.

Frankly it doesn't matter who will win, the media & fan boys will convert the star player on the winner into an immortal.

I wish the media didn't hype Dirk that much now and compare him to the likes of Larry Bird. Even Dirk knows that he got more work to do to reach Bird level.

Dirk will never get to Bird's level. Dirk does some things better than Bird, Bird did other things quite a lot better than Dirk. Both are/were great players.

[ixcuincle]

[The X]

I think this series is just illustrating what we all have know about Lebron. Great player but seriously, why the heck have you not added any semblence of a postup game or moves in all these years? Rather than settle for threes or long jumpers at the end of the shot clock, how about go to work and use a post up game. Just another weapon. Ahh well, maybe he'll start to add it this off-season

[shadowgrin]

One amusing part is Laker fans ranting and raving about the Heat cheating by getting three good players, and then turning around and plotting out an endless array of ways they can get Dwight for free.

One reason I want the Mavs to win. It might convince some teams/star players that you don't need to horde top talent/FA to win a championship and prevent most of the other top players to be concentrated in a few select teams avoiding further dilution of top talent for the entire league.

I want LeBron to go off for 45/15/15 and vaporize the Mavs by 20+ in the next two games just because of the "facts" and psychoanalysis of the last week even though I hate the Finals as much as any of the last six.

LeBron doing what he did to Detroit in 2007 is already enough to send a shiver down the spine of Mavs fans and LeBron haters (like me).

Dirk does some things better than Bird

Like what X? Like what things?

[Andrew]

I think this series is just illustrating what we all have know about Lebron. Great player but seriously, why the heck have you not added any semblence of a postup game or moves in all these years? Rather than settle for threes or long jumpers at the end of the shot clock, how about go to work and use a post up game. Just another weapon. Ahh well, maybe he'll start to add it this off-season

Beyond that, it doesn't seem like he's making much use of the gifts/talents that he does have when it matters the most, down the stretch in close games. As benji said, anyone who claims that he sucks or isn't a great player, one of the all-time great talents or whatever, is absolutely wrong. But it's fair to wonder why he's not taking over in the fourth quarter and punishing the Mavs as he's capable of doing, with the weapons he's shown plenty of times before (notably through the first three rounds of the Playoffs). Perhaps it is just a matter of working on his post game and ability to play without the ball but it still seems like he's playing below his tremendous abilities at crucial times in big games. Give some credit to the Mavs of course, but a player of LeBron's talent is capable of playing better, from start to finish.

Seems like the Mavericks fans took over the place of what once was the Lakers fans' place. If making a joke out of Dirk having a cold was such a big deal and a motivation to hate the Heat, what were all the shit talks that the Mavericks were throwing at the Heat all series long, in which the Heat players never responded to. And this notion that nobody shouldn't even dare try making little jokes on players like Dirk and Kidd since they are the only ones in the world that deserve a ring, all this while Lebron, Wade and Bosh have constantly been tainted by only god knows why hatred around, I can't say I have enjoyed any of this as a Heat fan.

I don't know about that, I think in many respects the more obnoxious members of the Heat's fanbase have taken over the roles of their counterparts among Lakers fans. There's been a few words exchanged on both sides, that's just a part of the game. If there's any hypocrisy or failure to back up one's words though, you can be sure that people are going to pounce on it and that's just the nature of verbal sparring as well.

As for the dislike/hatred towards the Heat, is it really that puzzling? It's pretty easy to explain.

1. The Decision. It's been discussed to death but bottom line the way it all went down left a bad impression on a lot of fans, so their impression of the Heat is unfavourable.

2. The preening and promise of several championships at their introduction. Boasting rubs people the wrong way and there's often a sense of satisfaction when someone who's cocky and boastful falls victim to the old adage of pride coming before a fall. It doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to boast, but those listening certainly don't have to like it and are entitled to a smirk if the boast isn't met.

3. Love of the underdog. The Heat have been one of the favourites to win it all since their huge offseason, give or take some rough moments. Fans love an underdog unless their team happens to be the favourite. This is far from uncommon in sports, the Heat just happen to be the team falling victim to it right now.

4. Fondness for the concept of heroes and villains in sports. I think in pretty much every sport there's an example of "You cheer for two teams; your favourite team and whoever's playing X". Quite often, the Lakers have been X as far as the NBA is concerned. With the Heat's rise this season and the reasons mentioned above, they're filling that role for a lot of people.

5. Jealousy/desire to be contradictory/tall poppy syndrome. Kind of permeates the above reasons as well, we can be petty beings like that.

6. The fans themselves. Obnoxious and myopic fans of all teams are the ones that make the most noise, defend their team with terms like "hater", jeer the most at opposing teams and their fans when their team is winning while disappearing or making excuses when their team is losing and in general, earn the ire of all the other fanbases. Like all good and great teams before them, the Heat have a certain number of fans like that among their supporters and they help foster a dislike of the team with other fans.

So yeah, we can argue whether or not it's justified but at the end of the day, nothing and no one is universally liked. I remember quite a few people writing into basketball magazines back in the 90s wishing ill upon the Bulls and wanting them to lose, in particular taking pleasure when they got off to a slow start in the last championship season. It's not a phenomenon that's unique to the Heat this year. Sports fans are passionate, passion overrides logic and objective thought and some things rub people the wrong way.

[Sauru]

Dirk does some things better than Bird

Like what X? Like what things?

flop

[shadowgrin]

^ Sauru's post.


In addition to Andrew's post...

7. Flopping like bitches.

[Murat]

Miami in 7.

2010 NBA Finals was very similar.

Game 1: Lakers
Game 2: Celtics
Game 3: Lakers
Game 4 & 5: Celtics

2011 NBA Finals:

Game 1: Heat
Game 2: Mavs
Game 3: Heat
Game 4 & 5: Mavs.

I guess you mean what I say.

[Cleveland wins]

I'm dedicating this thread to get Lebron James angry, but first let me just say this. I want Dirk and Jason Kidd to get their rings, because they don't have much time left in the nba. Especially Kidd, if the mavericks win this series, then i guarantee that Kidd will retire in the offseason.

Now, Lebron is making some very ignorant comments. He says, that he doesn't care about individual accolades? Well Lebron, listen to this. Its not about individual accolades, its about helping your team win in every way that you can, and one of the main ways that you can do this Lebron, is by scoring!

Miami needs Lebron more than ever, now that Dwyane Wade is hurting, I think he'll play, but he'll be playing hurt and may not be that effective in their next game. Lebron is not contributing much in helping his team win. He's only getting assists and rebounds in the last two games.

I think dallas is going to win in 7 games actually, its going to be very close. Lebron deserves a ring yes, but Dirk and J Kidd deserves rings and needs rings more than the three heat stars do. By the way, if Dirk, who is the mvp so far in these finals, can play with a 100 degree fever and still score big, then Wade can do the same thing and play hurt, plus Wade is younger.

By the way, if anyone knows; what kind of injury did Wade suffer in thursday's game? Lol, i just heard a tweet as well on espn. Someone said, "If you asked Lebron to give you a dollar, he'll only give you 75 cents, he'll never give you the fourth quartor".

[Jeffx]

That was the most umimpressive triple-double I've ever seen. Dude's not impacting the game in the 4th quarter like he should.

As for comparing Dirk to Bird, PLEASE STOP!

[Andrew]

By the way, if anyone knows; what kind of injury did Wade suffer in thursday's game?

Hip contusion, or a bruised hip.

[Houndy]

First off, in my opinion, the Heat are gonna treat Game 6 like Game 6 and the Mavs will treat it like Game 7. The Mavs know that if they lose Game 6, they'll probably lose Game 7. And besides, they have a pretty good shot of winning it in 6. LeBron can't take criticism well, so he'll struggle, and the Heat fans stink at being loud (According to Charles). And to the people comparing it to last year, the Lakers were an experienced team, they'd been in that situation. This Heat team (its players) haven't really been in an elimination game. IT's over in Game 6

[air gordon]

How about that Juwan Howard sighting? 6pts and a flagrant foul in limited action. He is the only guy I cheer for on the heat. And perhaps that assistant coach who looks like the guy from cyprus hill. But bald.

This Ljames thing- I feel like that girlfriend that gets used and abused. Ljames torched the bulls after game 1. Same with the Boston series. and now with this dallas series he's the one acting like a bitch. He's approaching Gasol like territory. Bigtime shrinkage. Good for him. Misery enjoys company

[NovU]

I don't know about that, I think in many respects the more obnoxious members of the Heat's fanbase have taken over the roles of their counterparts among Lakers fans.

Depends how you see it I guess. Considering how less of Heat fans(active) are out there and looking at how things are like in our very own forums, at least I can't really see it here.

As for those hate factors, I guess that's what makes the Mavericks the saints, everyone's new favorite. Lolz... I can understand the Mavericks fans being protective about their stars as I am probably doing the same. I understand that's what it is here. Nothing more than that.

Dirk will never get to Bird's level. Dirk does some things better than Bird, Bird did other things quite a lot better than Dirk. Both are/were great players.

Sauru's never going to admit but Dirk has a real strong case himself if not better. The stats possibly suggest that Dirk was a better player. And I am a big fan of 90s basketball with MJ's my all time favorite. But today's generation players also should be given fair chance at the evaluation.

And have to hear everybody say how Lebron is a God and a mix between MJ & Magic, no thanks.

Frankly it doesn't matter who will win, the media & fan boys will convert the star player on the winner into an immortal.

Media's(inc. Pippen) problem is them making blatant false claims fooling majority of casual fans. For once, I was fooled to believe Kobe was the closest thing to MJ. Other than him imitating couple MJ's moves, all the stats support that MJ was just superior. And same goes for Bron. He's no MJ. No contest. But to be fair, Bron I believe was having Jordan-like seasons back in CLE in his 2 last seasons prior to joining the Heat.

[shadowgrin]

Dirk will never get to Bird's level. Dirk does some things better than Bird, Bird did other things quite a lot better than Dirk. Both are/were great players.

Sauru's never going to admit but Dirk has a real strong case himself if not better. The stats possibly suggest that Dirk was a better player.

What!?! I know, I know. NovU said 'possibly' and 'if', but still. What!?!

[Andrew]

Depends how you see it I guess. Considering how less of Heat fans(active) are out there and looking at how things are like in our very own forums, at least I can't really see it here.

You may not see it but a lot of us non-Heat fans do. Like I said it's a vocal minority, just as it's been with Lakers fans. Or Bulls fans back in the 90s.

[NovU]

You may not see it but a lot of us non-Heat fans do. Like I said it's a vocal minority, just as it's been with Lakers fans. Or Bulls fans back in the 90s.

[sobz] You are implying that I took over that role of so called "Lakers Fans" I guess, but mind you Andrew, I was like this even when my team was at the bottom of standing. U jus hatin on me.

Dirk will never get to Bird's level. Dirk does some things better than Bird, Bird did other things quite a lot better than Dirk. Both are/were great players.

Sauru's never going to admit but Dirk has a real strong case himself if not better. The stats possibly suggest that Dirk was a better player.

What!?! I know, I know. NovU said 'possibly' and 'if', but still. What!?!

Dirk and Larry
Thought we'd be no different from media if we just blatantly claim that Larry is flat out better.

[shadowgrin]

Dirk and Larry

What? So it shows that even though Dirk is the more efficient player than Bird in the Playoffs, Bird is still the better all-around player than Nowitzki.
Regular Season? Pretty much the same efficiency, only significant advantage by Dirk is offensive win shares, Bird still the better all-around player.
...and I just inadvertently answered my question to the X.


Again. What!?