Chicago Bulls Thread

[air gordon]

I don't get to see many games either, air gordon would be able to give you a better analysis than I could. It seems they're more competitive with a few of the players back from injury but they still don't close out games well. No huge surprise there as they lack a player who can consistently take over games when the going gets tough (though that could be Rose eventually) and Rose and Gordon seem to be the only ones who can be potent scorers with any regularity.

here's my take- they stink. with this mix of players- there is little margin for error for this team to win games. and if their opponent has someone who is 6'10" or taller and can score, they are screwed

they play well in spurts but not so much in the 4th qtr... if there is an excuse for their crapiness, it's injuries. hinrich's return should help ease the burden rose takes on but they probably miss Gooden the most (sad to say lol)


matthew- lol read my post again- Rose is their marquee player. how is Paxson going to trade the "dengs" if they are injured. even if he dicked himself over and dealt deng for darius miles, the trade wouldn't have gone through since deng couldn't pass his physical. but you are half right- the "gordon's" rejected Paxson's multiyear contract this past offseason and will become a unrestriced FA at season's end

and are you seriously suggesting that Paxson has put the franchise in a worse situation then how it was under Krause during his last year? but hey- i'd like to hear your argument

[Andrew]

They do seem to just get killed late in close games, home or away, good opponent or not.

[Doobie]

They do seem to just get killed late in close games, home or away, good opponent or not.

I think this has to do with lack of leadership within the team and experience more than anything. If I remember correctly I read somewhere that the Bulls have no vocal leaders.

[Andrew]

True, but perhaps more importantly they lack someone who can let his game speak volumes and lead by example in those situations; it's one thing to have someone to fire up his teammates and be a vocal leader but without someone who can follow through and take over a game late then a team is going to falter when the game's on the line like that. I think Rose could be that player but he's not there yet and I read that he was missing shots down the stretch against the Timberwolves. I'd say he has the willingness but isn't dependable enough to come through consistently yet.

[Oskar]

Quite good win over the .. Clippers. Good to see that Rose had his midrange J falling, that's one thing he needs in order to dominate, he was quite good overall, though those 5 turnovers.. I'll watch the game tomorrow when I get home from practice, probably.

Overall, the Bulls suck. I hope the tards on the team don't bias Rose, he's too go(o)d to end up as Stevie Franchise, Marbs or someone.

[Andrew]

I think he'd have to have that kind of mindset to begin with. Larry Hughes is the only one on the team that seems to have that mindset and I don't think Rose will be taking his cues from him.

[Matthew]

matthew- lol read my post again- Rose is their marquee player. how is Paxson going to trade the "dengs" if they are injured. even if he dicked himself over and dealt deng for darius miles, the trade wouldn't have gone through since deng couldn't pass his physical. but you are half right- the "gordon's" rejected Paxson's multiyear contract this past offseason and will become a unrestriced FA at season's end

and are you seriously suggesting that Paxson has put the franchise in a worse situation then how it was under Krause during his last year? but hey- i'd like to hear your argument

The Pax vs Krumbs argument is like saying Isiah didn't do a bad job because he didn't do worse the Layden. But I think you're ignorant to Paxson's mistakes. This roster simply isn't working. As I'm going over it, Gooden, Deng, Gordon, Nocioni, Hinrich, Deng and Hughes all don't fit together. Now I know Hughes and Gooden are pretty much undumpable because of their contracts, so Deng, Gordon, Nocioni and Hinrich should be the players to go. Will they get much for them? No. But when you get a player like Rose, you should be building for the future rather then hanging on to past failures. When Philly drafted Iverson, they dealt Stackhouse and restructured their team. The next season after that trade, they were in the playoffs.

I'm not saying that will work here, but if you lighten the roster, it's addition by subtraction. You get more minutes for Thabo, Thomas and Rose (the three players I would definitely keep out of this bunch) and even if you lose more games, you'll probably get a better draft pick.

[Andrew]

I don't know, I'd be more positive about that scenario if Thabo had proven himself a more prolific scorer waiting to happen but he's shown very little offensive game and I'm still a bit uncertain about Thomas' ability to be a consistent scoring threat too. It's not so bad so long as they can get someone else who can rack up baskets but they have enough trouble as it is scoring points when they need them the most. A core of Rose, Thomas and Thabo is going to need a lot of help offensively, even moreso than the current squad.

[air gordon]

The Pax vs Krumbs argument is like saying Isiah didn't do a bad job because he didn't do worse the Layden.

this isn't a Pax vs Krumbs argument. don't be like stack42/matt/shep ramsey: if you claim Paxson has made more bad moves then good moves, let's hear your reasons and bball IQ as to why

But I think you're ignorant to Paxson's mistakes. This roster simply isn't working.... so Deng, Gordon, Nocioni and Hinrich should be the players to go. Will they get much for them? No. But when you get a player like Rose, you should be building for the future rather then hanging on to past failures. When Philly drafted Iverson, they dealt Stackhouse and restructured their team. The next season after that trade, they were in the playoffs.

I'm not saying that will work here, but if you lighten the roster, it's addition by subtraction. You get more minutes for Thabo, Thomas and Rose (the three players I would definitely keep out of this bunch) and even if you lose more games, you'll probably get a better draft pick

i suggest you go back and read my posts (and bball IQ). you're just repeating what i've said

Now I know Hughes and Gooden are pretty much undumpable because of their contracts

for Gooden- that's far from the truth. he's on an expiring contract of $7.1million


believe it or not Thomas has shown improvement in his offensive game. from what i see in the games- whenever he gets the ball on the perimeter, his defender is almost always giving him the shot. he's starting to hit that shot now and he's even shown the ability to hit it off the dribble and even some fadeaways. yet still... he still looks awkward going to the basket and finishing in traffic

and it almost pains me to say it but i will give credit where it is due- noah has been playing well. if i'm Paxson, i buy yannick noah tickets to the rest of the bulls game. since his dad watched him at MSG vs knicks, the light has started to flicker in noah's head

[Matthew]

this isn't a Pax vs Krumbs argument.

ORLY

and are you seriously suggesting that Paxson has put the franchise in a worse situation then how it was under Krause during his last year?

if you claim Paxson has made more bad moves then good moves, let's hear your reasons and bball IQ as to why

The signing of Ben Wallace. The trading of Tyson Chandler. The releasing of J.R. Smith. The drafting of Tyrus Thomas. The over valuing of Deng when KG was available. All those moves have made Chicago a mediocre team.

i suggest you go back and read my posts (and bball IQ). you're just repeating what i've said

Then why are you disagreeing with me then? haha.. And I don't remember you ever saying they need to unload players off their roster to make this team better in the long run by addition by subtraction.

for Gooden- that's far from the truth. he's on an expiring contract of $7.1million

Ok, I was wrong about that one. But Hughes is still there and is untradeable because of his deal.

believe it or not Thomas has shown improvement in his offensive game. from what i see in the games- whenever he gets the ball on the perimeter, his defender is almost always giving him the shot. he's starting to hit that shot now and he's even shown the ability to hit it off the dribble and even some fadeaways. yet still... he still looks awkward going to the basket and finishing in traffic

I like Thomas. He was one of the 3 players I said I would build around along with Rose.

I don't know, I'd be more positive about that scenario if Thabo had proven himself a more prolific scorer waiting to happen but he's shown very little offensive game and I'm still a bit uncertain about Thomas' ability to be a consistent scoring threat too. It's not so bad so long as they can get someone else who can rack up baskets but they have enough trouble as it is scoring points when they need them the most. A core of Rose, Thomas and Thabo is going to need a lot of help offensively, even moreso than the current squad.

I know Thabo isn't good offensively. But if you put him in a situation where he is a consistent starter, you can learn what he can and can't do and go from there. If worst comes to worst, and he sucks, at least he won't be clogging up the rotation based on potential of what he could possibly do with potential if was given the opportunity.

And yes they would need offensive help. But they need help now anyway. There's only one way to see what kind of players they are, and Chicago isn't going anywhere this year so why not play the younger guys and the players they are going to build around and try to unload some of the older ones?

[benji]

I think we have this discussion every six months.

[Andrew]

Not surprising, they've been at best treading water for a season and a half.

Nice to see them pick up a win yesterday over a team they had a shot at beating. I expect quite a different result against the Suns today though.

EDIT: Bulls boss unhappy with ‘embarrassing’ season

Of note:

Whether Reinsdorf was pointing a finger at Vinny Del Negro was unclear, but he said it wasn’t Paxson’s fault.

“If there’s one person that is not responsible for what’s going on right now, it’s John Paxson,” Reinsdorf said. “I have tremendous confidence in John Paxson.”

So apparently organisations win championships, but they don't assemble subpar teams or overpay players. I understand him wanting to stand by Paxson but Pax is the one that made these bad moves, not Del Negro and certainly not the Bulls' players. Everyone can be held accountable but that has to include Paxson because he assembled the roster, traded away LaMarcus Aldridge, signed Ben Wallace in 2006, re-signed Luol Deng to an $80 mil deal...if he's not responsible, then who is?

[Dan's Brain]

I expect quite a different result against the Suns today though.

Who said you couldnt use your powers for good?

[Andrew]

Well, it was a different result. They didn't win by twenty.

Nice to see them pick up a win like that and if they can win a few more games like that this year then I certainly won't be complaining but it really is an example of the team overachieving when they pick up a victory over a much better team like this, so longterm they will have to make changes and go back to the drawing board with a couple of the current core players being kept. But in the short term, it's a lot more pleasant than seeing them lose.

[Dan's Brain]

Was a very nice win. Good to get one on the second leg of a back-to-back. Also the first time that Chicago has swept their season series against the Suns since 1997. Also, they've won 9 of their last 10 against .500+ teams. They should be in far better shape than they are.

[NovU]

Chicago's backcourt did an amazing job today. The Suns doesn't have Bell's defensive game anymore and it cleared showed today. So far, Richardson hasn't been the answer for the sluggish Suns. I am starting to wonder if they will pull anymore trade before the deadline.

[Andrew]

Was a very nice win. Good to get one on the second leg of a back-to-back. Also the first time that Chicago has swept their season series against the Suns since 1997. Also, they've won 9 of their last 10 against .500+ teams. They should be in far better shape than they are.

Agreed. despite their flaws I think they could at least be a team that hovers around .500 and makes a token playoff appearance though they're in a hole once again and without stringing together a bunch of wins as they did in the 2005 season, they'll have to settle for woeful. Being in the lottery could help them moving forward by making players Paxson may be hesistant to trade more expendable and soften the blow if they need to accept less, but I'd still like them to show some pride and be competive. Besides, it could help a couple of the players raise their trade value, all the better if they want to get rid of a couple of those bad contracts. I'm disappointed they couldn't get that deal done with New Jersey that would've gotten rid of Hughes though.

[Valor]

great win, however, they still havent shown us that they can finish off a team in a close game...

[Andrew]

They did against the Kings but if I recall correctly they still gave up a bit of a comfortable lead. On the rare occasion they prevail in a close one, it seems more like they managed not to make too many mistakes than showing a true ability to close out the game.

[Dan's Brain]

Was a very nice win. Good to get one on the second leg of a back-to-back. Also the first time that Chicago has swept their season series against the Suns since 1997. Also, they've won 9 of their last 10 against .500+ teams. They should be in far better shape than they are.

Agreed. despite their flaws I think they could at least be a team that hovers around .500 and makes a token playoff appearance though they're in a hole once again and without stringing together a bunch of wins as they did in the 2005 season, they'll have to settle for woeful. Being in the lottery could help them moving forward by making players Paxson may be hesistant to trade more expendable and soften the blow if they need to accept less, but I'd still like them to show some pride and be competive. Besides, it could help a couple of the players raise their trade value, all the better if they want to get rid of a couple of those bad contracts. I'm disappointed they couldn't get that deal done with New Jersey that would've gotten rid of Hughes though.

I dont know if there's anyone that the Bulls would be able to get in the draft who would provide the Bulls with that low post threat we're always praying for. Blake Griffin will probably be number 1, and I doubt that the Bulls will be able to luck themselves into that spot again. Jordan Hill also looks like being a very good player and a potential impact player right off the bat, but will also likely go top 5. If the Bulls can't luck themselves into the top 3, then I think they should trade the pick for something proven.

I would have liked the Hughes to go through as well. He's more likely to get a DNP-CD than play 20 minutes these days. And while Bobby Simmons isnt amazing or what they need, he's still a capable player and less likely to chew up the salary cap.

[Andrew]

I think so too. Better they compete and if they come up short, let the ping pong balls bounce how they may.

[air gordon]

matthew
Laugh if you like but to say Pax has made worse moves then good is saying that he has put the franchise in a worse situation then when he started (Krause time)

I agree with Ben Wallace signing/drafting Tyrus Thomas as his bad moves. I agree with over valuing Deng but i remember McHale wanting Deng, Chandler, 1st round draft pick, and filler for KG+bad contracts

Tyson Chandler and his fat vagina ran it’s course in Chicago. Kudos to Pax for realizing that Tyson couldn’t handle the pressure of being a franchise player… nevermind he never put in the effort to be one. And look at him now-injured again and his #’s are down.

JR Smith? Ha are you kidding me? Releasing a one dimensional bench player is not a reason as to why the bulls stink now. ..So two bad moves were all you can come up? How about the good ones?

i'll just mention the ones he got rid of which turned out for the better. Jalen Rose, Eddy Curry, Jannero Pargo, Eddie Robinson, Marcus Fizer, Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, Donyell Marshall. Tim Thomas. ¾ of those players aren’t even in the league lol. Of that list, only Tim Thomas is a rotation player.

Paxson cleaned house and in only his 2nd year, the bulls were back to the playoffs and respectability. Under Paxson, the Bulls have made the playoffs 3 times-advancing to the 2nd round once. Even though the team has stumbled these past 1.5 seasons, there’s no question as to whether Paxson has done more good or bad for the franchise

Then why are you disagreeing with me then? haha.. And I don't remember you ever saying they need to unload players off their roster to make this team better in the long run by addition by subtraction.

What I’m disagreeing w/you is that you think that the bulls aren’t rebuilding and that Paxson should have made a trade already… two points I’ve already refuted

As early as July (see page 47) I said the bulls should clear cap for a run at the 2010 FA class… open up minutes for rose-Thabo-tyrus-noah

Ok, I was wrong about that one. But Hughes is still there and is untradeable because of his deal.

I wasn’t disputing that. I don’t see the need to repeat this bit of rocket science

My Thomas bit was more of a response to Andrew’s uncertainty of him being a consistent scorer. Probably should have quoted him. 1000 apologies

[Andrew]

I agree with Ben Wallace signing/drafting Tyrus Thomas as his bad moves. I agree with over valuing Deng but i remember McHale wanting Deng, Chandler, 1st round draft pick, and filler for KG+bad contracts

How close was that one supposed to be to going down? It probably would've been worth it even with the bad contracts, seeing as how Chandler is now gone and we appear to have seen Deng's ceiling.

[air gordon]

unsure. maybe the offer i posted was wrong. maybe someone like RIOT would know. what i do remember is that McHale wanted to dump a bad long term contract along with KG... and also the bulls had a hard time matching contracts since deng, hinrich, gordon were still on rookie contracts.

[Andrew]

That was definitely a drawback with all those rumoured deals a few years back, with so many players on their rookie contracts they would be throwing in at least two or three core players to make it work. The one that's really disheartening is the rumoured Gasol deal last year that fell through because they didn't want to give up Noah and kept pushing Thomas instead, right before he ended up going to LA for Kwame and Crittenton.