NLSC Greatest of All-time: #2

[NovU]

Stop resorting to ad hominem, sauru.

benji, is this you or graybackflip? You make it sound like Mitch was a bust and Kidd was some sort of god. Win it all as the best player? Has CP3 done that? Has Nash done that? Has Stockton done that?

Is Mitch not a top 10 SGs in 3pt era? J-Kidd wouldn't make top 5 either. Payton, CP3, Stockton, Nash, Magic, that's 5 already. Truth is that both were damn good respectively in their roles.

[Mandich]

Is Mitch not a top 10 SGs in 3pt era?

Not really.

EDIT: in no particular order you could easily argue that Wade, Bryant, Allen, Miller, Ginobili, Gervin, Moncrief, Drexler, Carter and Iverson were better.

He could probably slip at number 10 in some lists.

[benji]

I hoped he'd get a shot, but there was no way he was getting significant minutes under Skiles.

Bill Cartwright era.

Is Mitch not a top 10 SGs in 3pt era? J-Kidd wouldn't make top 5 either. Payton, CP3, Stockton, Nash, Magic, that's 5 already. Truth is that both were damn good respectively in their roles.

Top 5 vs Top 10?

Jordan, Reggie, Allen, Kobe, Drexler, Carter, Wade, Ginobili, Moncrief, Harden, Hornacek have to get nods over Richmond if you're just taking their primes. (Redd, Martin, Gervin, Roy too)

Kidd probably goes above Nash because of longevity and his dominant defensive presence. Billups, Kevin Johnson, Stephen Curry, Nash, Price, Westbrook, Cassell can round out a top eleven probably.

You make it sound like Mitch was a bust

Where?

[NovU]

Mitch arguably was the second best shooting guard in 90s. It's very debatable. He's a top 10 guy for sure. Kidd's a top 10 as well and not top 5. (Nash's 2 time MVP, don't even try)

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Too bad Mitch had not much to play for.

[Mandich]

But he wasn't. Miller and Drexler were clearly better than him. Clearly.

[Andrew]

Bill Cartwright era.

Cartwright? The Bulls acquired P.J. Brown and J.R. Smith in the 2006 offseason (later dealing him to the Nuggets for picks), prior to Skiles' last full season with the Bulls.

[benji]

Sorry, I thought we were talking about Kwame, Curry and Chandler being taken in the same draft and playing together.

[mp3]

I think there's still the awareness of them, though. I mean, all those tapes I grew up watching talked about the greatness of the previous generations, as well as the exploits of players like Isiah Thomas whose championships came a couple of years before I got into basketball.

Ditto, I mean more like the players like Wilt and Bill Russell type players.

There isn't many people around here that have being able to small anything more than small sample sizes of there games.

I was helping out coaching the other week and some kid was telling me that LeBron James is the best player in the history of the nba.

I had to educate the fool.

[Moz]

Mitch arguably was the second best shooting guard in 90s.

Too bad Mitch had not much to play for

Do you reckon the Blazers will be as successful in the 90's with Richmond on it instead of Drexler?

[NovU]

Drexler vs Richmond
http://bkref.com/tiny/DYDov
Prior to 90s, it's Drexler but entering the 90s, It's Mitch. What's interesting here is quality difference in teammates.

Drexler vs MICHAEL JORDUMB
http://bkref.com/tiny/dxGX2
Young Michael Jordan didn't just destroy the prime time Glyde but absolutely devoured him. MJ put up 50+ pts twice and 40+ pts several times against him.

Richmond vs MICHAEL JORDUMB
http://bkref.com/tiny/bcXVY
Not bad. One could easily say he held his ground on a seriously flawed team.

Richmond is an underrated player. His team held him back big time against these cats, big time.

[Jackal]

A player isn't "held back" by a team. If they're good, they're good.

[NovU]

That's true in most cases but there are always exceptions and Mitch is an extreme case of it.

He peaked at age of 30 and 31. That's when he finally got some help from teammates: Michael Smith and Olden Polynice. Yeah, sad but that's literally the best he had in Sacramento. This is a fact. Which other superstar had Michael Smith caliber guy as best support in his career?

It's the same reason how AI's efficiency went up in Denver, second prime in his late years. Not as extreme but a good example. Irving too was shit last year but this year he was one of the best point guards.

But no player was as unfortunate as Mitch. He literally had joke characters for teammates as a King. Your game can only deteriorate when you are forced to play 5 vs 3 and defense can collapse on you at no penalty. Just imagine you or me being on his team. We can be left alone by defense at literally no cost.

[Sauru]

That's true in most cases but there are always exceptions and Mitch is an extreme case of it.

He peaked at age of 30 and 31. That's when he finally got some help from teammates: Michael Smith and Olden Polynice. Yeah, sad but that's literally the best he had in Sacramento. This is a fact. Which other superstar had Michael Smith caliber guy as best support in his career?

It's the same reason how AI's efficiency went up in Denver, second prime in his late years. Not as extreme but a good example. Irving too was shit last year but this year he was one of the best point guards.

But no player was as unfortunate as Mitch. He literally had joke characters for teammates as a King. Your game can only deteriorate when you are forced to play 5 vs 3 and defense can collapse on you at no penalty. Just imagine you or me being on his team. We can be left alone by defense at literally no cost.

by this logic i can only imagine how good dominique wilkins could have been

[NovU]

It's not just a logic. It's history.

Do you think Paul Pierce could have done anything as a King with Michael Smith the Beast as your only support? Basketball is a team sport.

[Sauru]

It's not just a logic. It's history.

Do you think Paul Pierce could have done anything as a King with Michael Smith the Beast as your only support? Basketball is a team sport.

so again by that logic, i can only imagine how good dominique wilkins would of been


no idea why you brought piece into this, please stop the tunnel vision

[NovU]

Same reason you brought Dominique into the discussion. I'm offering a perspective.



Statistically Wilkins peaked in his fourth year and maintained his prime for a long time. It's common. Richmond's peak years were at age of 30-31 statistically, pretty much dwindling twightlight years. And it wasn't just a slight improvement but unusual spike, definitely he played best basketball at that age.

[Sauru]

Same reason you brought Dominique into the discussion. I'm offering a perspective.

you brought up pierce because you seem to bring them up in every thread i comment in. i brought up dominique because of what you said. you said mitch had it worse than anyone else as far as teammates go, i would nominate wilkins for that crown personally.

[NovU]

I love Paul Pierce and Celtics.

[benji]

He peaked at age of 30 and 31. That's when he finally got some help from teammates: Michael Smith and Olden Polynice. Yeah, sad but that's literally the best he had in Sacramento. This is a fact.

Lionel Simmons (pre-injury) was the best player Richmond played with probably.

Not sure how you're deciding on those two in any regard.

Richmond's 29-31 age shooting numbers (since that's all he's got in his favor) are all inflated. Same as everyone else who drifted outside. Shorter three point line + multiple bomb drafts in a row + extensive league expansion.

Pierce definitely would have made the playoffs in Richmond's position. The Clippers made the playoffs multiple times during that era we can't forget.

[NovU]

His shooting numbers aren't inflated. He shot better compared to league average. It was his best years, you can't deny that.

[benji]

Go look at players who suddenly became rampant three point shooters in the shorter line era and their performance in every other season of their career. Across the board their numbers are inflated.

Richmond went from occasional decent shooter to epic bomber and back again.

I assume because the line had been moved into what used to be his range of crappy long twos.

[shadowgrin]

All these Mitch Richmond dick sucking just because Jordan gave him a compliment.

It's not like an intensely competitive person like Jordan would compliment that bum if Richmond was truly that good. Jordan simply gave the safe answer like he always did in his playing career, as if Jordan would gladly choose that prick Reggie Miller at the time who happened to play for a team in the same division and conference as him, so Jordan picked the guy who was leading a lottery team for most of his career.

[NovU]

So Mr. Hinkie himself now turned into Michael Jordan himself. Perhaps shadowassgrin is the best mind reader of all time. Frigging dimwit translates perfectly MJ's thought going toe to toe with 90s Dwyane Richmond while still likcing LeBryant's big balls. Why don't you go bother someone else. With your mind reading skills, NASA should be the place for you dissecting aliens and shit.

Go look at players who suddenly became rampant three point shooters in the shorter line era and their performance in every other season of their career. Across the board their numbers are inflated.

Richmond went from occasional decent shooter to epic bomber and back again.

I assume because the line had been moved into what used to be his range of crappy long twos.

I'd say it definitely helped his game but it did help rest of the league so the point is somewhat moot. He was an excellent player that played well against fellow superstars at the time. Are you doing to deny that his teammates weren't bad? Paul Pierce also struggled to win before forming the trio. What say you if he was on such a pitiful team for entire career. He'd had nothing to play for either, thus the stinker season after another.

[benji]

Over the first ten years of their career, which I chose because it's when Richmond's best years stop.

P/36	R/36	A/36	TS%	Ortg	Drtg	PER	WS/48	BPM	WS	VORP
22.3	4.1	3.7	.563	111	111	18.1	.117	+1.2	68.3	22.8
22.2	6.1	3.8	.560	108	102	21.4	.164	+3.9	93.9	40.7

The best teams of their era (2007-08 Celtics excluded):

2001-02 Boston Celtics: 48-34
Pierce WARP: 15.4 (46.4%)
Combined non-Pierce WARP: 17.8 (53.6%)
Non-Pierce Players
PER > 15: 1.5
WS/48 > .100: 5
BPM > 0: 2.5

1994-95 Sacramento Kings: 38-44
Mitch WARP: 8.1 (33.75%)
Combined non-Mitch WARP: 15.9 (66.25%)
Non-Mitch Players
PER > 15: 2 (Polynice at 14.7)
WS/48 > .100: 5
BPM > 0: 4

[NovU]

Mitch:

"When you watch NBATV and those guys are talking and they ask, 'Who was the most underrated guard at the 2-guard spot?' They bring up my name. I felt like I was underrated a lot. No one kind of gave me the credit because I wasn't on these teams in the postseason.

"It was so easy for me to play with Tim Hardaway and Chris Mullin, because every night I knew they were giving me 30 or 25 points a night. No one knew who to key in on. You know how hard it is every night when every team knows who's gonna get the ball? You think that's easier for me or harder?

Mullin:

"Mitch was so unique, really the first practice, he seemed like he was a five-year veteran," Mullin said. "He had a post-up game, had a great jump shot, he was athletic, he was strong. That was different, having a guy walk in and being unquestionably the best player on the team on day one.

"Mitch set the bar so high, as a rookie he averaged 22 a game, which is incredible. There was no grace period, no breaking in. He just came in and commanded respect all over the place."


"Mitch and I played three seasons together, a short amount," Mullin said. "And us three only played two seasons together. But the impact that it had on the court, the style of play, the excitement and all those things were way longer lasting.

Beginning of end: Hardaway quote

"When he told us he got traded, I knew that was the beginning to the end," Hardaway said. "We were kind of upset, basically. We didn't show it, because we knew it was a business. But we didn't have time to grow as a team, didn't have time to develop as a team. I saw the future, and we could've been a team to reckon with for, shoot, a long time.

Mitch quote

"I just started crying, man," Richmond said. "I just started boohoo-ing, man. I called Bill Strickland, my agent, and I said, 'Man, what are the rules? Is there any way I can retire and come back to another team? What are the rules?'

"I did not want to go to Sacramento."

"Man, listen, I cried that whole year. That was a whole year of crying, brother."

"All those other teams we were playing against, they were grown men," Richmond said. "You played against Portland, and Portland had Buck Williams, [Jerome] Kersey, Clyde Drexler, [Terry] Porter.

"You just had so many teams equipped with grown men with beards and hairlines that went all the way back."

Mullin:

"The great thing is, Mitch went on to have a great career," Mullin said. "All those emotions never affected his approach, his discipline and his work ethic. That's what makes him who he is.

"The most important thing is what your teammates and opponents say about you. I can't think of anyone that played with him or against him that wouldn't say the guy was one of the best 2-guards of his generation. That's why he's going where he is."

SAC had no chance in that era. Even that trade to WAS was awful. This guy's one of the most unfortunate ones in history. Period.