Has LeBron played himself out of the Hall of Fame?

[Andrew]

Scalabrine won with Pierce.

[stereoxide]

Scalabrine won with only himself. Pierce, Garnett, Allen and Rondo are merely accessories to his legendary championship run.

[shadowgrin]

Scalabrine played in no games during the entire playoffs when the Celtics won the championship in 2008.
Proof that he didn't need to play with Pierce, KG, or Ray Allen to win a ring.
Stats prove it.
Fact.

The notion that Scal would need help teaming up with other players just to win a ring is preposterous, Scal is not weak like LeBron.

[_Steve_]

Looking at his individual stats LBJ played a very good final series, so you can't blame him too much for his personal effort. Still he's not the leader MJ was. LeBron lacks that kind of relentness of MJ and Kobe. Both of them - most of all Jordan - could push themselves to another level, where LeBron is "just" a role model of consistency. Looking at what I've just written, I come the the conclusion that LBJ and the Heat failed to build their legacy.

[koberulz]

Rodman was a liability on offense

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1143

Rodman had a slightly positive effect on his teams scoring efficiency (points per opportunity),

He dedicated himself to those 3 attributes, and though he did them very well he only contributed greater than or equal to 10 points a game.

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1201

Dennis Rodman’s MOV differential was 3.78 points, which was tops among players with at least a season’s worth of qualifying data

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1143

3.8 points per game may not sound like much compared to league-leading scorers who score 30+, but...If a player who scores 30 points per game is only actually contributing 1 or 2 points to his team’s average margin, that essentially means that at least 28 of those points are either 1) redundant or 2) offset by other deficiencies...Last year’s championship Lakers team had an average margin of victory of just 4.7 points. For the past 5 years, roughly three quarters of teams have had lower MOV’s than Dennis Rodman’s differential

Great PF, but putting him in the top 5 or top 10 is a little much when his most outstanding stat is rebounding.

Why? Did rebounding become irrelevant to winning at some point?

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1304

From his margin of victory differential alone, Rodman should rank right around the 98th percentile among full-time players. Combining his MOV differential and his Win % differential (using the normal predictive method), moves him up to the mid-99th percentile. And relying on his Win % differential alone would put him approximately in the top 99.98th. Generally, about 5% of full-time players make the Hall of Fame, meaning this would put him in the 99th percentile of Hall of Famers: In other words, he would deserve to be a shoo-in to make the Hall of Fame of the Hall of Fame.

And that's players, not just power forwards.

http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222

[NovU]

First it's making role players better, now it's leadership, lol. This is fun.

Still he's not the leader MJ was. LeBron lacks that kind of relentness of MJ and Kobe. Both of them - most of all Jordan - could push themselves to another level, where LeBron is "just" a role model of consistency.

I want you to look at Kobe's Finals MVP record. Historically, statistically, no other Finals MVP had such awful showings and still came out a Finals MVP. Or does anyone really think it was Kobe's leadership that turned Gasol into the best player on the Lakers team, made Bynum 2nd best center only behind Dwight, and have allstar Odom coming off the bench. Keep in mind this is the very same team that was hovering around little over .500 before Gasol's arrival. But I guess it was all Kobe's leadership kicking in beautifully all of sudden. Err... ok.



This is the thing. People confuse team success with individual success. Same goes with shortcomings.

[shadowgrin]

lol at LeBron apologists.

When the Heat won the Finals it's because LeBron carried the team, when the Heat lost the Finals it's because LeBron had no help from the team.

People should stop making excuses for LeBron.

[NovU]

I can kinda understand where Sauru is coming from on the point that as the superstar you have to take some of the blame. the fact that they put together this superteam only amplifies it

But I am no apologist but more of benjist when it comes to this myth about superteam. OFC this was benji when he was sober and off the crack and whores.

Re: The Celtics (both Finals teams really) there are two ways to build a contender.
One, get a player who is better than everyone at his position by a significant margin. You know, Mikan, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan or Shaq. (Bird and Magic had a small stretch as the same.) As you can see this doesn't happen that often, so you usually need to...
Two, get a bunch of really good players so that you're above average at least four positions and you're bringing guys who would start on most teams off the bench. You know, every championship team but the 2000-2002 Lakers.
(Or if you're the 1990s Bulls you get to have both.)

Now, if you get a bunch of guys who are all above average but no truly spectacular guy you can contend but it's rare to win. Say if 15 was league average (and 30 was Jordan/Shaq/Kareem/Wilt/etc.) and you had a bunch of 16-18 guys and maybe one 19-20 guy, you're probably not going to win. See: The 1999-2001 Blazers, 1998-2000 Pacers, etc. You'll contend, but it'll be difficult to win a title. But what you can do is sacrifice some of that first group and instead have a bunch of 12-16 guys and two or three 20-25 guys. And if you can have at least one guy who is top three at his position you're good to go.

Both of our Finals teams fit that mold. The Celtics have Rondo who is a top-three point guard (especially since Chris Paul was missing for most of this year) and have KG, Pierce and Allen who are all 18-20 guys but one of them can often be another 20+ guy on any given game. Pierce and Allen had some in the Orlando series, KG had some against Cleveland, etc. And then they go deep with a couple of those 12-16 range guys in Sheed, Shelden Williams, Finley, Nate Robinson, Tony Allen, etc. And some of those guys are guys who can put up a 16-20 range game as Nate Robinson and Sheed did in select games in the Orlando series.

Lakers are similarly built on this model except they peak higher and their depth is less. Gasol and Kobe are top-three at best, top-five at worst, at their positions, both of them 22-23 range players who have been at 25 in the playoffs. Bynum when healthy is another 18-20 range guy, while Odom is a 16-18 range guy who can peak at times in the 20s. Then they have Fisher, Farmar, Artest, Vujacic, Brown, etc. who are 11-14 range players generally. (Fisher only so in the playoffs, Artest of course can move into higher tier when he isn't screwing up endlessly on offense.)

You can look at every title team and see that same basic build.
Various Spurs teams: Duncan, then Robinson or Ginobili, plus Parker, and then depth.
2006 Heat: Wade and Shaq, then depth.
2004 Pistons: Depth, with Ben Wallace and Billups being all-star quality players and Rip and Sheed just a notch below them. (In other words they had four 17-20 guys instead of just one so they could get away with not having any clear 20-25+ guys.)
1994-95 Rockets: Hakeem then plus Drexler, then depth.
1989-90 Pistons: The only modern team that's really won with the mid-quality depth, but Thomas at times could step up into that star tier, and they were playing in a valley on the NBA's talent level. (Indeed, the only time you can get away with this is when the talent level drops. You can find teams during the ABA and otherwise dark days of the 1970s that won this way. And when the talent level hadn't yet rebounded at the turn of the decade it allowed teams like the Blazers and Pacers to have legitimate shots at the title.)
1980s Celtics and 1980s Lakers: Bird/Parish/McHale plus depth. Magic, Kareem early on, Worthy was on the next tier but often had stretches of stepping up, plus depth.
1983 Sixers: Moses Malone (was probably the best center at the time), Dr. J was still in the 20-25 range, plus depth.

It's just that the first model lets you contend way easier. If you've got that dominant player, got another All-Star, you can put out a lottery team around them and still be a contender and win titles. The Lakers did this for a few years recently. When they lost that dominant player, even though they beefed up the surrounding talent slightly they weren't much of a threat to anyone until Bynum developed and they brought in Gasol.

I've said several times this season that it worried me the Heat team were more reliant on LBJ than ever before. And also that Wade was no more a superstar and new comers were useless and failed to replace anyone. Mike Miller, Joel Anthony were gone, Battier, Haslem are retirement players, so the Heat were left with much less talent than championship seasons. This Heat team didn't really fit the mold benji described above. But having one of the best player in prime definitely got them far.

[Cpt(K)]

Rodman was a liability on offense

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1143

Rodman had a slightly positive effect on his teams scoring efficiency (points per opportunity),

Never said he didn't, and thats where the words "hustle" and "intensity" come into play.

He dedicated himself to those 3 attributes, and though he did them very well he only contributed greater than or equal to 10 points a game.

I probably should've been more specific, I was pointing out his highest points per game average for a season. The MOV and junk like it, I factored into a few words "hustle" and "intensity." Next time I might tag e'm with the word "points" at the end. Then again, I may have to specify that those are not just his individual points I'm speaking about. I was being very inclusive in that regard.

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1201

Dennis Rodman’s MOV differential was 3.78 points, which was tops among players with at least a season’s worth of qualifying data

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1143

3.8 points per game may not sound like much compared to league-leading scorers who score 30+, but...If a player who scores 30 points per game is only actually contributing 1 or 2 points to his team’s average margin, that essentially means that at least 28 of those points are either 1) redundant or 2) offset by other deficiencies...Last year’s championship Lakers team had an average margin of victory of just 4.7 points. For the past 5 years, roughly three quarters of teams have had lower MOV’s than Dennis Rodman’s differential

Great PF, but putting him in the top 5 or top 10 is a little much when his most outstanding stat is rebounding.

Why? Did rebounding become irrelevant to winning at some point? I never said it was irrelevant.

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1304

From his margin of victory differential alone, Rodman should rank right around the 98th percentile among full-time players. Combining his MOV differential and his Win % differential (using the normal predictive method), moves him up to the mid-99th percentile. And relying on his Win % differential alone would put him approximately in the top 99.98th. Generally, about 5% of full-time players make the Hall of Fame, meaning this would put him in the 99th percentile of Hall of Famers: In other words, he would deserve to be a shoo-in to make the Hall of Fame of the Hall of Fame.

I never said he shouldn't be in the HOF.

And that's players, not just power forwards. Are you trying to mess around?

http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222

I'd be much more impressed, had you thought up your own text to disperse than copy and paste portions of someones work. Nonetheless, it is a resource I suppose. You may have understood it better without thinking I was bashing Rodman. It was merely my opinion, and I stand by it.

Maybe I should've typed "his own field goal attempts/percentages/opportunities" as his contribution instead. Hustle, and rebounding as I've stated were his contributions, which contributes to the team in differing variables (the hustling, intensifying defense, etc are factors that contribute [I was merely too lazy to go that in-depth]). I'm not going to post several walls of text to explain them individually. I just didn't think I had to spell it all out. Everyone knows rebounding is important, I'm not arguing that he wasn't a great player. I am arguing that it's as childish to put that statistic out in front (to assert him as a top 5 or top 10 player, I believe he has a case for top 15, 20 obviously) the way someone would pull out Wilts 50 ppg in the regular season. Yes, in my mind Wilt is top 20 not top 10. Ironically, this is because of on single observation: his performance dropped in the postseason.

You must understand, as a fan of the Bulls I must have some form of criticism. Or would you prefer docile-minded fans, who sputter everything favorable of their team and have a knee-jerk reaction towards critics?

[Andrew]

docile-minded fans, who sputter everything favorable of their team and have a knee-jerk reaction towards critics?

Well, sure! Those are the only true fans, after all...

[Sauru]

I can kinda understand where Sauru is coming from on the point that as the superstar you have to take some of the blame. the fact that they put together this superteam only amplifies it

yeah i am not trying to bash lebron at all here, i am just saying as the best player in the nba he has to accept some blame

[benji]

yeah i am not trying to bash lebron at all here, i am just saying as the best player in the nba he has to accept some blame

How is it Andre's fault that LeBron choked again?

And I think the second best player in the NBA has already accepted all the blame in winning the NBA championship this year.

[_Steve_]

First it's making role players better, now it's leadership, lol. This is fun.

Still he's not the leader MJ was. LeBron lacks that kind of relentness of MJ and Kobe. Both of them - most of all Jordan - could push themselves to another level, where LeBron is "just" a role model of consistency.

I want you to look at Kobe's Finals MVP record. Historically, statistically, no other Finals MVP had such awful showings and still came out a Finals MVP. Or does anyone really think it was Kobe's leadership that turned Gasol into the best player on the Lakers team, made Bynum 2nd best center only behind Dwight, and have allstar Odom coming off the bench. Keep in mind this is the very same team that was hovering around little over .500 before Gasol's arrival. But I guess it was all Kobe's leadership kicking in beautifully all of sudden. Err... ok.



This is the thing. People confuse team success with individual success. Same goes with shortcomings.

Maybe you're right about Kobe, at least a bit. Still I've got the feeling, he got/get's more under the skin of his friends and foes as LBJ does.
But as shadowgrin and others already mentioned, LBJ collected the merits for winning, so has to accept the blame for losing.

[benji]

Keep in mind this is the very same team that was hovering around little over .500 before Gasol's arrival.

They were 30-16. And 35-20 without Gasol on the season.

The Gasol trade was basically the same as the Sheed trade for the Pistons. Only the Pistons didn't run into the 2008 Celtics at the end of their run.

[koberulz]

Never said he didn't, and thats where the words "hustle" and "intensity" come into play.

You said he was a liability on offense. If the offense is better when he's on the floor, how can he be a liability?

I probably should've been more specific, I was pointing out his highest points per game average for a season.

Who cares what his highest PPG average is?

I never said [rebounding] was irrelevant.

You're dismissing Rodman because his best quality was 'only rebounding'. Sure sounds like it to me.

I never said he shouldn't be in the HOF.

Sure, but you're arguing that he's not a top-ten all-time power forward. If he's 'hall of fame of the hall of fame' good, it seems unlikely that he's not top-ten at his position.

Are you trying to mess around?

...huh?

I am arguing that it's as childish to put that statistic out in front (to assert him as a top 5 or top 10 player, I believe he has a case for top 15, 20 obviously) the way someone would pull out Wilts 50 ppg in the regular season.

Which is valid, but the fact that people generally use that argument for Rodman doesn't mean other arguments don't exist.

[Cpt(K)]

Never said he didn't, and thats where the words "hustle" and "intensity" come into play.

You said he was a liability on offense. If the offense is better when he's on the floor, how can he be a liability? Okay, you are seriously only looking at that as "across the board" aren't you?

I probably should've been more specific, I was pointing out his highest points per game average for a season.

Who cares what his highest PPG average is? Well, apparently someone does. I didn't think with this response you understood it wasn't merely about that single season performance. But whether you realize it or not, putting up individual numbers (yes I know rebounds qualify as numbers) like those can be a rather valuable asset. In short, I'd be willing to have Rodman higher had his individual output been a little better. There wouldn't be many other people above him otherwise. But it was not meant to be...

I never said [rebounding] was irrelevant.

You're dismissing Rodman because his best quality was 'only rebounding'. Sure sounds like it to me. I didn't say that was his only quality, I listed 3 or 4 major contributions he excels at.

I never said he shouldn't be in the HOF.

Sure, but you're arguing that he's not a top-ten all-time power forward. If he's 'hall of fame of the hall of fame' good, it seems unlikely that he's not top-ten at his position. Really? I'm pretty sure being in the HOF makes you a HOF regardless of where my opinion would put you in that HOF list. I'm not even saying my top 10 Power Forwards are light-years ahead of Rodman either.

Are you trying to mess around?

...huh? Thought you might be trolling, particularly because you seem to not want to accept my opinion as my own.

I am arguing that it's as childish to put that statistic out in front (to assert him as a top 5 or top 10 player, I believe he has a case for top 15, 20 obviously) the way someone would pull out Wilts 50 ppg in the regular season.

Which is valid, but the fact that people generally use that argument for Rodman doesn't mean other arguments don't exist.

Let's see some of yours buddy.

[koberulz]

Why can't you just use quote tags?

putting up individual numbers (yes I know rebounds qualify as numbers) like those can be a rather valuable asset. In short, I'd be willing to have Rodman higher had his individual output been a little better.

What if increasing his output hurt his team? Why should he be ranked based on arbitrary and meaningless numbers?

Really? I'm pretty sure being in the HOF makes you a HOF regardless of where my opinion would put you in that HOF list.

So your argument is that your opinion is wrong and irrelevant?

Let's see some of yours buddy.

Why would I bother, when this already exists?

[Cpt(K)]

Why can't you just use quote tags?
Maybe cause I don't want to, if you're so bothered by my methods of reponse- you can stop now.

putting up individual numbers (yes I know rebounds qualify as numbers) like those can be a rather valuable asset. In short, I'd be willing to have Rodman higher had his individual output been a little better.

What if increasing his output hurt his team? Why should he be ranked based on arbitrary and meaningless numbers?
And what if increasing his output helped his team? ^ I guess we can say all numbers are meaningless now... scoring isn't that important- so what is, meh.

Really? I'm pretty sure being in the HOF makes you a HOF regardless of where my opinion would put you in that HOF list.

So your argument is that your opinion is wrong and irrelevant? I don't know where you're getting that from, I have him in my HOF list, just not as high as others. beware of semantics...

Let's see some of yours buddy.

Why would I bother, when this already exists?

You'd be more creative and appealing to me that way, otherwise . . .

[Kevin]

I want some popcorn now

[shadowgrin]

[SoF'nAwesome]

Yep, he has. All is doomed. I say we just forget he even played in the NBA.



lolz at benji not wasting a single moment to make this thread