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Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:24 am

Haslem's shooting 40% this season.
I guess it'd only make sense for him to take the game deciding basket.

Not to mention he made that pass with like 3.5 seconds remaining, more then enough time to create a shot for himself or drive.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:36 am

koberulz wrote:
NovU wrote:Lebron certainly has long ways to go if wants to be considered a game winning shot maker along in the likes of Kobe, or Jordan.

Given that Kobe and Jordan got those reputations because the media felt like handing them out, rather than actually doing anything to deserve them, and that same media seems determined to tear LeBron down regardless of what he does, it's reasonable to assume at this point that no matter what LeBron does he's never going to have that reputation.

koberulz wrote:
he certainly needs to back it up with memorable finishes as Kobe and Jordan have.

Why?

What do you want me to say? The thoughts of not coming out in the moments like this will always linger in peoples' thoughts no matter what he does. You spoke the truth in many aspects which I can't really disagree.


koberulz wrote:
Say if he didn't defer to Haslem but made the basket himself, it could have been one of those memorable moments for the fans.

His job isn't to entertain fans. His job is to help his team win. That's what he was doing.

At the same time, people expect to see... for a player of his caliber it sure would be nice if he could end up on the favorable side of highlight reels which would satisfy his status of greatness.

koberulz wrote:
That's what he is being targeted for I assume.

He's being targeted for playing basketball instead of being a self-important douchebag. As opposed to last year, when he was targeted for being a self-important douchebag instead of playing basketball.

As a Heat fan, I've seen a lot of unfair criticisms where things are judged in obvious unfair manners. I believe most of us Heat fans are at a point that we are at ease with criticism mainly because we grew tired of nit pickings on every each one of the Heat moves. Becoming an ultimate favorite and a villain certainly have caused that and Lebron being targeted and things getting blown out of proportion on this small particular play isn't really something new. I think we both know that it's not going to stop probably never.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:15 am

Oh well.They still lost.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:04 am

koberulz wrote:Given that Kobe and Jordan got those reputations because the media felt like handing them out, rather than actually doing anything to deserve them


Granted, the media love to play up different angles for the sake of telling a compelling story, but I'd suggest players like Jordan, Bird, Kobe etc gained those reputations because they do have their share of clutch plays and gamewinning shots.

Pdub wrote:What a horrible lesson for the kids:Don't pass it. The double came as soon as he got the ball so he already saw that Haslem was open. Haslem was ready for the pass the whole time. Why Lebron is getting the scrutiny is beyond me. If he is going to win a championship, he needs the people around him to be able to execute plays like that.


That's not what's being suggested here; well, it's not what I'm advocating, at any rate. He made a solid play, albeit one involving a less than ideal player to take the last shot. However, given the nature of the defense and his ability to pretty much do whatever he wants on the court, he perhaps gave it up too quickly.

phpBB [video]


It's not much of a double team, Howard's behind him and he can easily take Millsap off the dribble. Compare that to this pass from Kobe:

phpBB [video]


That's a more effective double team, forcing Kobe to give it up. Unfortunately for the Mavs, they gave Fisher too much room and he's a stronger shooter than Haslem. LeBron made a good, logical play, but given the other player involved I don't think it would've been a much worse decision to take it himself and I believe he could've got what he wanted from the Jazz's defense on that play. I think most teams will live with Haslem taking a potential gamewinning shot; the old saying of "open for a reason" may apply here.

Of all the highly scrutinised "LeBron in crunch time" moments, this is one of them where he doesn't deserve too much flak because he did make a good play. However, history makes it the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. If he didn't have that turnover in the All-Star game, if there weren't other instances of him passing up on final shots he could've (and in some cases, certainly should've) taken and moments in last year's Finals where he was passive in crunch time and nowhere near as aggressive taking the ball to the basket, this wouldn't get so much attention.

As far as the criticism goes, it may be unfair at times but let's not pretend that LeBron alone is singled out for this treatment. Michael Jordan had his fair share of criticism before he won his first championship and that still didn't change some people's minds. Magic Johnson was labelled "Tragic Johnson" after the 1984 Finals, and he had already won two championships at that point. Kobe's copped his fair share of blame and criticism as well. It's not always been fair, but it's not always been completely off-base either. So it goes with LeBron.

For my part, I don't think it was a terrible play, he hit the open man who unfortunately in this case wasn't really the guy you'd want taking that shot. I could live with LeBron taking that last shot though and given that the double team wasn't that strong - Howard was behind him and Millsap is far from the ideal candidate to guard LeBron off the dribble - I think he could've gotten a good look that would've been just as desirable an option as Haslem taking the last shot. That's all. It's not an "epic fail" on LeBron's part, I'd just take my chances on LeBron shooting it in that situation.

I do agree that not enough attention/blame is given to Wade's fouls, especially on that three point attempt. Also, if Spoelstra drew it up for Haslem to take the last shot and for LeBron to be the passer/decoy, he should be getting a decent amount of blame here. Even if you're not going to have LeBron take that last shot, go with Battier before Haslem since Wade and Bosh are unavailable at this point.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:45 pm

Andrew wrote:I'd suggest players like Jordan, Bird, Kobe etc gained those reputations because they do have their share of clutch plays and gamewinning shots.

Of course. Like whoever it was that scored 25 straight points against the Pistons in the playoffs or whatever, and hit a game-winning three against the Magic in the playoffs. And has several regular-season game-winners to his credit. Just with attention being paid to those, instead of the times they fucked up.

For my part, I don't think it was a terrible play, he hit the open man who unfortunately in this case wasn't really the guy you'd want taking that shot.

But then as I pointed out earlier, any other year Haslem's mid-range jumper is money. And it's usually the second pass out of the double that gets the open shot: in this case, the guy on the three-point line at the 45. Assuming that player was a competent three-point shooter (although again, I have no idea who it is), the blame should be Haslem for not also passing the ball.

Also, if Spoelstra drew it up for Haslem to take the last shot and for LeBron to be the passer/decoy, he should be getting a decent amount of blame here. Even if you're not going to have LeBron take that last shot, go with Battier before Haslem since Wade and Bosh are unavailable at this point.

If Spoelstra drew it up for any one player in particular, he should be getting a decent amount of the blame. That's not how basketball works.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:51 pm

Sure, LeBron's had his clutch moments and he probably doesn't get enough credit for them. It's just that he's also had some noteworthy moments where he's not been at his best when it's mattered most. For someone that can flat out dominate the competition whenever he chooses these moments of passiveness are puzzling and a point of interest.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:57 pm

Andrew wrote:It's just that he's also had some noteworthy moments where he's not been at his best when it's mattered most.

Like game one of the 1991 NBA Finals? Or like whichever year it was against Utah?

For someone that can flat out dominate the competition whenever he chooses these moments of passiveness are puzzling and a point of interest.

This argument basically states that we have to criticise everyone who doesn't make a selfish play, instead opting for the better option, if they've ever fucked up at anything ever.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:44 pm

koberulz wrote:Like game one of the 1991 NBA Finals? Or like whichever year it was against Utah?


What's the parallel here? That other great players have missed gamewinning shots or lost big games? I never said otherwise.

koberulz wrote:This argument basically states that we have to criticise everyone who doesn't make a selfish play, instead opting for the better option, if they've ever fucked up at anything ever.


No, but it's fair to wonder why someone so dominant is at times so passive and unlike themselves, as LeBron was in the Finals last year when he stopped driving to the basket, dribbled tentatively on the perimeter before taking rushed threes to beat the shot clock and playing hot potato with the ball leading to a few turnovers.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:10 pm

Yes, it's perfectly fair to wonder that. During June, July, and August of last year. Fuck it, there's a lockout, wonder until January, whatever.

It doesn't mean any criticism about the Utah game is valid.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:59 pm

Watching the play again, I'd have to say Battier was a feasible option and he was 6/7 on the night. To answer your previous question, I think that's Chalmers at the three point line, who wasn't shooting well but probably would've still been a better choice than Haslem and just as open. It makes me wonder if it was drawn up that way, LeBron as the first choice and Haslem as Plan B if the double comes.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:05 pm

IMHO all the criticisms in this case were needless and controversy definitely could have been avoided. Did Lebron's play hold much relevance to his alredy well known reputation of prime time under achiever? Was it that bad of a decision? To the extent where people should have been reminded once again how terrible he is during the clutch? Which we were told times and times before.

Would you have Kobe, Wade, Carmelo, or Lebron to force a shot over defender(s) or would you rather have Haslem to take an open shot? Is the latter option that much of a terrible play? Many found the latter option to be a decent look to the basket under intensive situation where defense heavily focuses on superstars, thus coming to a conclusion that Lebron's play didn't hold much relevance to his reputation of primetime underachiever. However the media had to give further meanings to the play and gave headlines such as this thread, "Lebron passed again", intentionally, leading to a controversy. Lolz. To play my Heat fan card again, this is what I got used to. Many I believe are starting to grow tired of these nit pickings though. The Heat lost and Lebron moved on. But the media just couldn't.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:17 pm

I still feel that it wouldn't have been a terrible decision for LeBron to take it himself but sure, history led to a knee jerk reaction. Like I said though, it's not like LeBron is the only athlete past or present who gets singled out like this.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:27 pm

True that. Perhaps I am realizing all these issues mostly because I am a Heat fan.

And the criticism certainly carries valiant points that can't be ignored but it's the timing and frequency of it that's growing tiresome I believe.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Andrew wrote:Watching the play again, I'd have to say Battier was a feasible option and he was 6/7 on the night. To answer your previous question, I think that's Chalmers at the three point line, who wasn't shooting well but probably would've still been a better choice than Haslem and just as open. It makes me wonder if it was drawn up that way, LeBron as the first choice and Haslem as Plan B if the double comes.

Chalmers would've been even more open than Haslem, because it was Chalmers's man that ended up contesting Haslem's shot and there was nobody else on that side of the floor.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:59 pm

Blame Matt Harpring.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:37 pm

I still got no issues with the play. Next time that play is made, it'll be to Bosh & Heat will win on the way to their title. I prefer a play like that than one of Melo or Pierce or Kobe going one on whoever & shooting a low percentage shot (even if they make it).

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:45 pm

(Emphasis mine)

The X wrote:I prefer a play like that than one of Melo or Pierce or Kobe going one on whoever & shooting a low percentage shot (even if they make it).


Doesn't that ultimately amount to preferring a loss over a win? ;)

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:02 am

If you guys missed it here's a piece from the Helen Lovejoy of NBA writers regarding LeBron in the ASG, over-reacting again like he usually does.

Given chance to win NBA’s 2012 All-Star game, LeBron James takes a pass.

After all, this was an All-Star game, and ultimately the moment everyone had waited to witness. Game’s on the line, Bryant on James. There’s nowhere to go, nowhere to hide. Most of all, there’s nothing to lose. Take the shot, live with the consequences.

And truth be told, there are no consequences for failing on a long 3-pointer in the final seconds of an All-Star game, no consequences for driving past Bryant and missing a runner or missing a pull-up jumper. No one would’ve remembered a missed shot down two points to the Western Conference, but a long, wayward, get-this-ball-out-of-my-hands pass lingers longer.

“Yeah, he was telling me to shoot it,” James said. “I wish I could have that one back.”

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:40 am

phpBB [video]


He faced a much tougher double team there, he probably could've taken the shot but it would've been a tough look. You could perhaps fault him for attempting the risky cross court pass to Wade when Melo was right there and had enough daylight for a decent shot. The decision to pass was fine; the decision of who to pass to, probably not so much.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:02 pm

One from Ask Ira Q&A
Q: I admire how all the talk from national media of stars taking our final shot doesn't hinder our stars from making the right basketball plays. -- Adam, Miami.

A: And you saw that on Wednesday night. The difference is this time Udonis Haslem and Chris Bosh made the shots. Like coaches often say, this is a make-or-miss league. Sometimes it's that simple.

Sorta why I said the entire issue would have been moot had Haslem made the basket or Bosh was avail for the shot. We need them to knock it down at times and it's a good thing the ball is still finding an open man.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:55 pm

Well, he came up with a big shot this time around.

phpBB [video]


He did actually pass up a decent shot inside, but Chalmers did have an alright look from three and they ultimately managed to run more time off the clock before LeBron got open for his clutch shot. Down three, it was a good play.

Great shot from Wade too, you could possibly give him the foul on that but he does kind of jump/lean into the defender and the NBA proclaimed they'd be cracking down on that, so good on them for following through with a non-call involving a star player. No bailout calls, no controversy, just a cold blooded clutch shot to decide the game. Great finish, so close yet so far for the Pacers in trying for a big road win.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:48 pm

Andrew wrote:Well, he came up with a big shot this time around.

phpBB [video]


He did actually pass up a decent shot inside, but Chalmers did have an alright look from three and they ultimately managed to run more time off the clock before LeBron got open for his clutch shot. Down three, it was a good play.

Great shot from Wade too, you could possibly give him the foul on that but he does kind of jump/lean into the defender and the NBA proclaimed they'd be cracking down on that, so good on them for following through with a non-call involving a star player. No bailout calls, no controversy, just a cold blooded clutch shot to decide the game. Great finish, so close yet so far for the Pacers in trying for a big road win.


Nice play from LBJ! Was kinda shocked when I first saw him pass the ball, but looking at the result he you can't blame him not going for two free throws/ an and one...

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:13 pm

Well he was totally open,so it was not something you couldn't wait of..
I mean he's not that clutch(He missed a good three opportunity before Wade's game winner),but for sure he can make wide-open threes...

As for Wade,what else can I say? He's the best game finisher in the league. Maybe tied with Kobe. Not many players can win a game that easily...

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:12 am

George7 wrote:As for Wade,what else can I say? He's the best game finisher in the league. Maybe tied with Kobe. Not many players can win a game that easily...

Two words: Paul Pierce.

Re: LeBron passed it again.

Mon Mar 12, 2012 2:03 am

SteveHTOWN wrote:
George7 wrote:As for Wade,what else can I say? He's the best game finisher in the league. Maybe tied with Kobe. Not many players can win a game that easily...

Two words: Paul Pierce.


Until last year for sure. Now I don't know. Still a Top 5(maybe Top 10) Finisher,but his age has affected him a little
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