Present Day Players Overrated?, Test Of Time, Etc.

So you've been comparing Kobe before they changed the no-handcheck rule that NBA implemented about 5 years back? This rule change can not be underestimated. I'd hate to see what MJ would do in his prime with the rules geared towards not being able to put a hand on him

Or how about Dr.J? Today's NBA favors wing players. With no handchecking, The Doctor would have no problem operating today.

Young cats don't realize how physical the league was back in the day. Walt Frazier used to say he had bruises on his arms after playing against the Bulls' backcourt of Jerry Sloan and Norm Van Lier. And the Celtics were famous for their bruising style.

Young cats don't realize how physical the league was back in the day. Walt Frazier used to say he had bruises on his arms after playing against the Bulls' backcourt of Jerry Sloan and Norm Van Lier. And the Celtics were famous for their bruising style.

Paul Silas and Dave Cowens should be languishing in jail for what they did on the court to opposing players.




I <3 hova.

Paul Silas and Dave Cowens should be languishing in jail for what they did on the court to opposing players.

...and they were soft compared to Tommy Heinson.

When dudes like Wes Unseld set a pick on your ass, you didn't get up for a week.

Damn, gotta get me to watch some games of him.

Damn, gotta get me to watch some games of him.

Back in the day, you paid the price for driving the lane. I miss that - not dirty, but tough, physical basketball.

Yeah, if I played in NBA in the 70s or 80s. I'd probably be dead.

When dudes like Wes Unseld set a pick on your ass, you didn't get up for a week.

No, I think I'd probably just drop dead right in front him before the impact even happened. lol

Damn, gotta get me to watch some games of him.

seconded, I think we all do.

Damn, gotta get me to watch some games of him (Heinson).

Back in the day, you paid the price for driving the lane. I miss that - not dirty, but tough, physical basketball.

Seen a few games of Unseld and the man was a fucking brick wall when setting screens. Some players who didn't know the screen was coming had that look of being hit by truck (or a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick) after they ran into him.

Some players who didn't know the screen was coming had that look of being hit by truck (or a Chuck Norris roundhouse kick) after they ran into him.

phpBB [video]

I think it was Walt Frazier or Kareem who said a lot a cats are still around today because Wilt Chamberlain never lost his cool. He got hammered on a nightly basis and sometimes the refs let it go. One time Willis Reed was getting physical with Wilt, and The Stilt picked him up and carried him to the bench.

As for Unseld, he was only 6'8", but you couldn't move him. One of the best outlet passers in NBA history.

Just for fun, look up Kareem laying out Kent Benson, Darryl Dawkins squaring off against Maurice Lucas('77 Finals), or Kevin McHale clotheslining Kurt Rambis('84 Finals). Shit was no joke back in the day.

I think it was Walt Frazier or Kareem who said a lot a cats are still around today because Wilt Chamberlain never lost his cool. He got hammered on a nightly basis and sometimes the refs let it go. One time Willis Reed was getting physical with Wilt, and The Stilt picked him up and carried him to the bench.

As for Unseld, he was only 6'8", but you couldn't move him. One of the best outlet passers in NBA history.

Just for fun, look up Kareem laying out Kent Benson, Darryl Dawkins squaring off against Maurice Lucas('77 Finals), or Kevin McHale clotheslining Kurt Rambis('84 Finals). Shit was no joke back in the day.

Seen that Kareem game and the clotheslining of Kurt Rambis. Any decent basketball fan and Lakers hater (like me) knows of Kurt Rambis.

Probably the ugliest appearance of that time with his geek-googles, his sweaty hair and the big moustache.

// Oh, and why the hell do you love me, Disco Stu?

i still think rambis flopped on that play

defense to start

Kobe plays defense in a different-looking way to Michael?

A start would be the compare their steal statistics. Would be quite naive, but it's a start.

Oh, and don't forget about the DPOY awards. Maybe less naive I guess.

This.

Willis Reed was getting physical with Wilt, and The Stilt picked him up and carried him to the bench.

Was trying to find any article related about it and stumbled upon this:

Greatness Revisited: Why Wilt Chamberlain Was the Greatest NBA Player Ever

Granted that it's a Bleacher Report article, I never paid too much attention to the author's personal ramblings and interpretation of data but instead on the anecdotes about Wilt which I found an enjoyable (the author's book sources check out, good) read. Decided to quote some of the fun parts to spare some forum members who are allergic to reading. Italics mine.

Paul Silas gave an even more impressive impression of Wilt’s strength and power when he once said, "One time, when I was with Boston and he was with the Lakers, Happy Hairston and I were about to get in a scrape. All of a sudden, I felt an enormous vise around me. I was 6'7", 235 lbs., and Wilt had picked me up and turned me around. He said, 'We're not going to have that stuff.' I said, 'Yes sir.'
(It's Paul Silas, a guy even Charles Barkley mentioned that he wouldn't mess with, and Charles Barkley took down Shaq one time in a brawl, so that must have meant something for Silas to be scared. )

When he (Gus Johnson) slammed it on Wilt, he really threw it down, and you could tell that Wilt didn't like it one bit.
Later in the game, Gus was out on the fast break, and the only man between him and the basket was Wilt. He was going to dunk on Wilt--again.
Gus cupped the ball and took off--he had a perfect angle for a slam.
Wilt went up and with one hand he grabbed the ball--cleanly! Then he took the ball and shoved it right back into Gus, drilling Gus into the floor with the basketball.
Gus was flattened and they carried him out. It turned out that Gus Johnson was the only player in NBA history to suffer a dislocated shoulder from a blocked shot."

from Wilt’s greatest rival, Bill Russell, who knew only too well how powerful Chamberlain was. As he puts it, “I still remember the time when one of our strongest men, Gene Conley, decided to fight Chamberlain for the ball. He [Conley] grabbed it and hung on and Chamberlain just lifted him and the ball right up towards the rim.” – Bill Russell, “Go Up for Glory” p. 126.

And Wilt wasn’t only a powerful player. Most think of Chamberlain as nothing but a dunking machine, scoring the vast majority of his points on thunderous dunks over smaller opponents. Again, nothing could be further from the truth.

Chamberlain came into the NBA with a very polished jumper, and his strongest signature moves were not dunks, but fadeaway jumpers and finger rolls. As Carl Braun put it, “Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers…Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn’t just dunking the ball then.” – Red Holzman, “A View from the Bench” p. 70.

Another thing many don’t realize is that Wilt was in far better shape than most NBA players today. Most would think that with the training regimens of today’s players, they would be able to run circles around The Big Dipper – Not so.

Wilt was a world-class athlete, who came out of college a 440 Champion track star as well as a basketball Phenom. Anyone who knows the history of the NBA knows that during the 60s the pace of basketball was frenetic, with players running up and down the court all game long (half-court basketball being almost anathema to the league at the time).

During this era, Wilt once averaged more than 48 minutes a game for an entire season. That in and of itself testifies to the incredible stamina Wilt possessed and what great shape he was in. Most of the centers through the '80s, '90s, and even today wouldn’t stand a chance trying to run with Chamberlain.
(If we take into consideration the type of defense played then, what Wilt did in that season is still phenomenal considering the pace of the game at that time. Think SSOL Phoenix Suns, but on steroids)

Most amazing about all this, is that in his great and lengthy 14-year career, he never once fouled out of a game. I mean, just imagine what that must have taken in terms of control. Despite all of the rough treatment by opposing defenses, he was able to control himself enough to never receive enough fouls to be tossed from a game.

howard has trouble making it til friday without fouling out of a game

Wilt was a god. He also played pro-volleyball and ran marathons after retiring. I'm always amazed he's often left off the list of the greatest modern athletes. Let alone that people call Jordan the greatest athlete in NBA history because he tried to play baseball for a couple years. (During his gambling suspension amirite.)

But on on the other hand I ask myself how to measure the influence of a guy on a Championship calibre team like for example the Celtics right now. None of these guys' numbers really amaze you. Still they will have another shot at the title.
Actually it would be funny if there were not only player-debates but team-debates which means that everybody would talk about "the 2010 Lakers are better than the Showtime Lakers of 1985. I guess it would be way easier to justify the result of team comparisons than these player debates.

There are team debates. We've had a select few here, but you'll find them more often elsewhere.

Re: The Celtics (both Finals teams really) there are two ways to build a contender.
One, get a player who is better than everyone at his position by a significant margin. You know, Mikan, Wilt, Kareem, Jordan or Shaq. (Bird and Magic had a small stretch as the same.) As you can see this doesn't happen that often, so you usually need to...
Two, get a bunch of really good players so that you're above average at least four positions and you're bringing guys who would start on most teams off the bench. You know, every championship team but the 2000-2002 Lakers.
(Or if you're the 1990s Bulls you get to have both.)

Now, if you get a bunch of guys who are all above average but no truly spectacular guy you can contend but it's rare to win. Say if 15 was league average (and 30 was Jordan/Shaq/Kareem/Wilt/etc.) and you had a bunch of 16-18 guys and maybe one 19-20 guy, you're probably not going to win. See: The 1999-2001 Blazers, 1998-2000 Pacers, etc. You'll contend, but it'll be difficult to win a title. But what you can do is sacrifice some of that first group and instead have a bunch of 12-16 guys and two or three 20-25 guys. And if you can have at least one guy who is top three at his position you're good to go.

Both of our Finals teams fit that mold. The Celtics have Rondo who is a top-three point guard (especially since Chris Paul was missing for most of this year) and have KG, Pierce and Allen who are all 18-20 guys but one of them can often be another 20+ guy on any given game. Pierce and Allen had some in the Orlando series, KG had some against Cleveland, etc. And then they go deep with a couple of those 12-16 range guys in Sheed, Shelden Williams, Finley, Nate Robinson, Tony Allen, etc. And some of those guys are guys who can put up a 16-20 range game as Nate Robinson and Sheed did in select games in the Orlando series.

Lakers are similarly built on this model except they peak higher and their depth is less. Gasol and Kobe are top-three at best, top-five at worst, at their positions, both of them 22-23 range players who have been at 25 in the playoffs. Bynum when healthy is another 18-20 range guy, while Odom is a 16-18 range guy who can peak at times in the 20s. Then they have Fisher, Farmar, Artest, Vujacic, Brown, etc. who are 11-14 range players generally. (Fisher only so in the playoffs, Artest of course can move into higher tier when he isn't screwing up endlessly on offense.)

You can look at every title team and see that same basic build.
Various Spurs teams: Duncan, then Robinson or Ginobili, plus Parker, and then depth.
2006 Heat: Wade and Shaq, then depth.
2004 Pistons: Depth, with Ben Wallace and Billups being all-star quality players and Rip and Sheed just a notch below them. (In other words they had four 17-20 guys instead of just one so they could get away with not having any clear 20-25+ guys.)
1994-95 Rockets: Hakeem then plus Drexler, then depth.
1989-90 Pistons: The only modern team that's really won with the mid-quality depth, but Thomas at times could step up into that star tier, and they were playing in a valley on the NBA's talent level. (Indeed, the only time you can get away with this is when the talent level drops. You can find teams during the ABA and otherwise dark days of the 1970s that won this way. And when the talent level hadn't yet rebounded at the turn of the decade it allowed teams like the Blazers and Pacers to have legitimate shots at the title.)
1980s Celtics and 1980s Lakers: Bird/Parish/McHale plus depth. Magic, Kareem early on, Worthy was on the next tier but often had stretches of stepping up, plus depth.
1983 Sixers: Moses Malone (was probably the best center at the time), Dr. J was still in the 20-25 range, plus depth.

It's just that the first model lets you contend way easier. If you've got that dominant player, got another All-Star, you can put out a lottery team around them and still be a contender and win titles. The Lakers did this for a few years recently. When they lost that dominant player, even though they beefed up the surrounding talent slightly they weren't much of a threat to anyone until Bynum developed and they brought in Gasol.

Wilt was a god. He also played pro-volleyball and ran marathons after retiring.

Can still play ball too...

Of all his memories of Wilt Chamberlain, the one that stood out for Larry Brown happened long after Chamberlain's professional career had ended. On a summer day in the early 1980s, when Brown was coaching at UCLA, Chamberlain showed up at Pauley Pavilion to take part in one of the high-octane pickup games that the arena constantly attracted. "Magic Johnson used to run the games," Brown recalled..."and he called a couple of chintzy fouls and a goaltending on Wilt. "So Wilt said: 'There will be no more layups in this gym,' and he blocked every shot after that. That's the truth, I saw it. He didn't let one [of Johnson's] shots get to the rim." Chamberlain would have been in his mid-40s at the time, and he remained in top physical shape until recently (Stewart, Larry, "Giant Towered Over the Rest", The Los Angeles Times, 1999-10-13)

Last edited by shadowgrin on Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Some team, the Nets or something, tried to get him to unretire and play center for them in the late 80's/early 90's.

Great stuff on Wilt, shadow. And my bad about that story, I got the players mixed up.

It annoys the hell out of me hearing some young NBA fans pump up Jordan at Wilt's expense. They don't realize how great an athlete Wilt was. Believe me, Wilt could play in today's NBA. I believe the immortal players can adjust their game accordingly.

benji's team model is a big reason why the 90s Knicks couldn't get over the hump. Patrick never had that secondary player on Scottie Pippen's level(I'll slap anyone who brings up John Starks). Much as I detest Pippen, he did everything Michael needed him to do, and is a first ballot HOFamer. Shit, in '94, I believe the Bulls won 55 games and were a Hue Hollins call away from possibly going to the Finals.

my bad about that story, I got the players mixed up.

I think I read or heard from player interviews about that story of Wilt carrying someone to the bench to avoid a brawl but I can't exactly recall who it was, that's why when you mentioned it being Willis Reed my curiosity got me to do some searching. I'm still unsure who that player was, just found out that article whilst searching for more info.
Speaking of avoiding fights (from the same link in my previous post or even here):

In a game against the Seattle Supersonics, one of the Sonics players, a former teammate of Wilt’s named Tom Meschery, was in the lane trying to score.

He first committed four ball fakes, and then attempted a shot. Chamberlain blocked it easily. When Meschery got it back in the lane, he tried more ball fakes, and attempted another shot, which Wilt again blocked.

Meschery, angry and frustrated, ran at Chamberlain swinging, and in a hilarious scene straight out of a comedy film, Wilt placed his hand on the 6-6 forward’s head and let him swing. After a few swings, Wilt is said to have then looked down at Meschery and state, “That’s enough.” Meschery, of course, stopped.

Like I said before, a lot of cats are still around because Wilt never lost his cool. Imagine what might have happened if he just lost it?

I think we will have the same problems measuring teams that we have with players. Just because there will be a lot of guys going like "Kobe's a 40 player!!!!111". But it's a nice excursus the way you brought it up. It's like the having a "big three" is a formidable way to win it all, whilst the Spurs or Mavs this year showed that having one go-to-guy and 6-7 guys who are slightly above average (at least caught in the team's system, thx Jim Carrey) are not enough to win it all.

So the Mavs should really try to get Dirk one big free agent via giving up Dampier and hope that guys like Butler, Marion and especially Roddy B can be that third option missing.

You don't necessarily need a great third option if you can have two equal third options. If Butler returned to his level of 2005-09, Kidd and Terry stay at their same level and Beaubois plays as well as he did last year but in a bigger role, then adding someone like LeBron or Wade through that trade while keeping Haywood would probably more than enough to put them in that inner circle of contenders.

benji's team model is a big reason why the 90s Knicks couldn't get over the hump. Patrick never had that secondary player on Scottie Pippen's level(I'll slap anyone who brings up John Starks). Much as I detest Pippen, he did everything Michael needed him to do, and is a first ballot HOFamer. Shit, in '94, I believe the Bulls won 55 games and were a Hue Hollins call away from possibly going to the Finals.

I don't know if you can easily make them better than the Bulls. Ewing isn't good enough. The Bulls had the best player in the league, another versatile All-Star level player, and then a forward who was efficient on offense and a great defender. (Horace Grant splits into Kukoc and Rodman in the second threepeat.)

But I think they could beat the Rockets by replacing John Starks with another two guard. Starks shot 3/18 and 2/18 in games one and seven. You don't even need Reggie Miller, they could probably do it with someone like Hersey Hawkins who is at the same level defensively. Even Jeff Hornacek would have been better. Starks was just so inefficient and the fact that he jacked so many shots (almost as many as Ewing) really hurt the team offensively. Of the guards in 1993-94 who took at least 15 shots a game, only Jimmy Jackson and Ron Harper had worse ORtg's.

You don't necessarily need a great third option if you can have two equal third options. If Butler returned to his level of 2005-09, Kidd and Terry stay at their same level and Beaubois plays as well as he did last year but in a bigger role, then adding someone like LeBron or Wade through that trade while keeping Haywood would probably more than enough to put them in that inner circle of contenders.

benji's team model is a big reason why the 90s Knicks couldn't get over the hump. Patrick never had that secondary player on Scottie Pippen's level(I'll slap anyone who brings up John Starks). Much as I detest Pippen, he did everything Michael needed him to do, and is a first ballot HOFamer. Shit, in '94, I believe the Bulls won 55 games and were a Hue Hollins call away from possibly going to the Finals.

I don't know if you can easily make them better than the Bulls. Ewing isn't good enough. The Bulls had the best player in the league, another versatile All-Star level player, and then a forward who was efficient on offense and a great defender. (Horace Grant splits into Kukoc and Rodman in the second threepeat.)

But I think they could beat the Rockets by replacing John Starks with another two guard. Starks shot 3/18 and 2/18 in games one and seven. You don't even need Reggie Miller, they could probably do it with someone like Hersey Hawkins who is at the same level defensively. Even Jeff Hornacek would have been better. Starks was just so inefficient and the fact that he jacked so many shots (almost as many as Ewing) really hurt the team offensively. Of the guards in 1993-94 who took at least 15 shots a game, only Jimmy Jackson and Ron Harper had worse ORtg's.

Shit, they had Ro Blackman sitting on the bench, benji!!! Riley's stubborness cost us - even today, Pat the Rat admits he made a mistake staying with that nutcase too long.

I can't even watch replays of that series, it pisses me off so much.

Some team, the Nets or something, tried to get him to unretire and play center for them in the late 80's/early 90's.

Nets, 1986. $500,00, which is still quite a sum at that time.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

...the New Jersey Nets reportedly offered him nearly half a million dollars to play out the last couple weeks of the NBA season—and he was 49 by then.

The Nets' offer, while obviously of considerable publicity value to a team somewhere out in the suburbs that nobody knows exists, was perfectly legitimate. Wilt finally turned it down only because he was afraid he would disappoint people, afraid that even though he was sure he would acquit himself proudly, playing in the NBA in his 50th year, nothing he could do would be enough to satisfy expectations.

These days, for typical daily amusement he competes (against others or himself) in the following activities: basketball, racquetball, volleyball, tennis, polo (yes, the kind with horses), rowing single sculls, swimming, running races, lifting weights, hurling objects (discus & shot put), performing the martial arts, aerobics and walking long distances. He still holds his own in scrimmages with current NBA players.

No wonder some people find it hard to believe Wilt's athleticism during his playing days. Just reading the things he did is just damn ridiculous even after retirement, and late forties at that.

I lol'ed at this...

His reputation precedes him. During a time when Groucho Marx was a neighbor, Groucho would suddenly appear at Wilt's house, cigar in tow, walking in his crouch, the whole bit, come in, smirk, say only, "Where're the girls? Where're the girls?" and then slink away.

...and he's also a cheapskate:

In all his years in the NBA, he never once gave a young lady a ticket to one of his games. (according to him)

But this surprised me more:

Wilt, maybe you could shoot free throws better now? Wilt shakes his head in tolerant chagrin, suffering another fool as best he could. No matter what, he is never going to escape from free throws...

...Countless suggestions were proffered. He shot underhanded, one-handed, two-handed, from the side of the circle, from well behind the line. Hannum suggested to Wilt that he shoot his famous fadeaway as a foul shot. Hannum checked the rule book and said he found that you had to be behind the line only when you shot, so he proposed that Wilt start near the basket and fade back to the line. Wilt thought the idea had merit, too, but he was just too scared to try the scheme and bring even more attention to his one great failing.

I have seen games and clips of Wilt occasionally doing fadeaways but haven't given it much thought that it's a very important part of his arsenal, at least early in his career. I guess as his playing career went by he found out that he can pretty much score easily and decided to ditch the fadeaway for shots that will bring him closer to the basket.

You don't necessarily need a great third option if you can have two equal third options. If Butler returned to his level of 2005-09, Kidd and Terry stay at their same level and Beaubois plays as well as he did last year but in a bigger role, then adding someone like LeBron or Wade through that trade while keeping Haywood would probably more than enough to put them in that inner circle of contenders.

I would love to see LeBron or Wade in Dallas!

Mavs this year showed that having one go-to-guy and 6-7 guys who are slightly above average are not enough to win it all.

It wasn't even enough for Dallas to beat the Spurs.

a "big three" is a formidable way to win it all

In that case, Dirk should stay in Dallas, and LeBron and Dwayne should both come to Dallas. That would kick ass for Dallas, but not for any other team. They would have to scrap the "big three" and just go with the "enormous three".

Some team, the Nets or something, tried to get him to unretire and play center for them in the late 80's/early 90's.

What would happen if the Mavs became desperate for somebody and tried to unretire MJ again? I mean come on, he's only 47!