NBA Finals: Lakers (1) vs Celtics (4)

[Dan's Brain]

Ah, thanks. Still long overdue. It's nice to see these series go the distance when your team isn't involved.

[benji]

The only thing this series is going to set the record for is how much bitching there will be about calls.

Kobe is great. Much better than spoiled princess James. But his problem is that the Celtics have way to much quality on all other positions to beat them single-handed. His team has to play 120%.

You guys are funny. You'd think Kobe isn't playing with one superstar and two and a half guys who have shown flashes of All-Star talent. (All of whom know the pecking order, which is why the Bulls also worked despite Jordan being an insufferable asshole and egomaniac.)

And I'll preempt some whining about my earlier mockery. Let's assume Jordan is the best player ever. (My view on this is more nuanced, but let's start with this.) Then who is the best offensive player of all time? Wilt Chamberlain. The best defensive player? Bill Russell. That's three. Are there any other players who dominated an era and dictated contention alone? Shaquille O'Neal and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. That's five. Now you add the best forwards which is? Tim Duncan and Larry Bird. That's seven. How about the next two guards? Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson. That's nine.

To make ten, and include Kobe, that means you're cutting out: A bushel of forwards who were awesome (Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Bob Pettit), guards who put up (Jerry West, Bob Cousy), centers who did amazing things (Moses Malone, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon) and someone who went the distance nobody else has (John Stockton) and did so better than anyone but a player in The Nine. And we're not done, there's three players currently in the league who are at a level that can only compare to the above Nine, LeBron James, Chris Paul and Dwayne Wade. Hell, if you're one of those "against the era" guys there's George Mikan to fill out the list.

Where does Kobe stand? Was he ever the best player in the league or on a team that won a title? This is only debatable in a couple seasons. (And I'm one of those who argue Gasol is more valuable to the current Lakers than Kobe is.) Did he even dominate his position? No, of course not. Carter, McGrady, and Wade all bested him in most given seasons save for the one he jacked shots at the greatest rate in history. Was Kobe one of the handful of outliers who won titles as the best player on a team before 25 (LeBron's age)? No, that group continues to be limited to Kareem, Bill Walton, Magic, Wade, Walt Frazier and Duncan.

Comparing Kobe to Jordan doesn't just diminish Jordan, it diminishes most of the rest of league history. Kobe is fantastic, one of the best in his era, but by any standard he does not find himself in the Pantheon. (Unless you're one of those lunatics who equates team success with personal success and decides nobody else on the team but the person you're trying to defend matters. Protip: Kobe has never been the clearcut best player on his title teams. And he's bombed in three NBA Finals, two of which the team lost because of that.)

If we're honest, the only player who has ever come close to Jordan, since Jordan (technically during Jordan) was Tracy McGrady. His 2002-03 season is a carbon copy of how Jordan achieved his late career greatness outside of the more threes, less mid-range direction.

[NovU]

Notice how it's becoming it was all Kobe all along. Jordan talk still sounds silly to me. Call me a hater for all I care.

[Martti.]

Celtics in 5. And nobody can shut down Rondo.

[Cartar]

I am actually happy to see Lakers in the Finals for just one reason, so that Boston could beat Wade, James, Howard and Bryant all in one postseason. Boston in 6.

[The X]

The only thing this series is going to set the record for is how much bitching there will be about calls.

Kobe is great. Much better than spoiled princess James. But his problem is that the Celtics have way to much quality on all other positions to beat them single-handed. His team has to play 120%.

You guys are funny. You'd think Kobe isn't playing with one superstar and two and a half guys who have shown flashes of All-Star talent. (All of whom know the pecking order, which is why the Bulls also worked despite Jordan being an insufferable asshole and egomaniac.)

And I'll preempt some whining about my earlier mockery. Let's assume Jordan is the best player ever. (My view on this is more nuanced, but let's start with this.) Then who is the best offensive player of all time? Wilt Chamberlain. The best defensive player? Bill Russell. That's three. Are there any other players who dominated an era and dictated contention alone? Shaquille O'Neal and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. That's five. Now you add the best forwards which is? Tim Duncan and Larry Bird. That's seven. How about the next two guards? Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson. That's nine.

To make ten, and include Kobe, that means you're cutting out: A bushel of forwards who were awesome (Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Bob Pettit), guards who put up (Jerry West, Bob Cousy), centers who did amazing things (Moses Malone, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon) and someone who went the distance nobody else has (John Stockton) and did so better than anyone but a player in The Nine. And we're not done, there's three players currently in the league who are at a level that can only compare to the above Nine, LeBron James, Chris Paul and Dwayne Wade. Hell, if you're one of those "against the era" guys there's George Mikan to fill out the list.

Where does Kobe stand? Was he ever the best player in the league or on a team that won a title? This is only debatable in a couple seasons. (And I'm one of those who argue Gasol is more valuable to the current Lakers than Kobe is.) Did he even dominate his position? No, of course not. Carter, McGrady, and Wade all bested him in most given seasons save for the one he jacked shots at the greatest rate in history. Was Kobe one of the handful of outliers who won titles as the best player on a team before 25 (LeBron's age)? No, that group continues to be limited to Kareem, Bill Walton, Magic, Wade, Walt Frazier and Duncan.

Comparing Kobe to Jordan doesn't just diminish Jordan, it diminishes most of the rest of league history. Kobe is fantastic, one of the best in his era, but by any standard he does not find himself in the Pantheon. (Unless you're one of those lunatics who equates team success with personal success and decides nobody else on the team but the person you're trying to defend matters. Protip: Kobe has never been the clearcut best player on his title teams. And he's bombed in three NBA Finals, two of which the team lost because of that.)

If we're honest, the only player who has ever come close to Jordan, since Jordan (technically during Jordan) was Tracy McGrady. His 2002-03 season is a carbon copy of how Jordan achieved his late career greatness outside of the more threes, less mid-range direction.

Lebron will end up in that group no doubt, if Wade & Paul stay healthy then them too. Don't know about Admiral though, something doesn't seem right with him at that spot. Maybe it's just my memories of the Dream killing him that cloud my judgement. Disappointed no mention of John Havlicek

[Lean]

Celtics in 3. The Lakers will forfeit the series in Game 4. I guess it's not safe to go out of the house after posting this.

Celtics in 6. And that Oakrhum guy would appear again and say those guys rooting for Boston are bandwagoners.

[Murat]

I dont have any opinion. Look what I vote:

Boston wins because Paul Pierce will play in a wheelchair again.

[[Double LC]]

Go Lakers in 5... get 1st ring for Artest...

[stereoxide]

Pierce will not repeat the wheelchair drama. Artest will handle him and will put him in a stretcher.

[Jackal]

Lakers in 6. Boston's going down after their nice playoff run.

Kthx. =)

[Modifly]

benji, excellent post regarding the never ending Kobe vs. Jordan debate. I thought that was a great read, so good that I have to tell you.

This part was especially fantastic.

If we're honest, the only player who has ever come close to Jordan, since Jordan (technically during Jordan) was Tracy McGrady. His 2002-03 season is a carbon copy of how Jordan achieved his late career greatness outside of the more threes, less mid-range direction.

Not a lot of people realise how good McGrady's 02-03 season was. One could argue that Kobe's 35.4 ppg season was better, but like you said, it was because "he jacked shots at the greatest rate in history".


As for the Lakers - Celtics series, I'm going to say Celtics in 6 or 7 just because I hate the Lakers.

[megarover]

I am actually happy to see Lakers in the Finals for just one reason, so that Boston could beat Wade, James, Howard and Bryant all in one postseason. Boston in 6.

Oddly enough many people do. Lakers in 6

[The X]

benji, excellent post regarding the never ending Kobe vs. Jordan debate. I thought that was a great read, so good that I have to tell you.

This part was especially fantastic.

If we're honest, the only player who has ever come close to Jordan, since Jordan (technically during Jordan) was Tracy McGrady. His 2002-03 season is a carbon copy of how Jordan achieved his late career greatness outside of the more threes, less mid-range direction.

Not a lot of people realise how good McGrady's 02-03 season was. One could argue that Kobe's 35.4 ppg season was better, but like you said, it was because "he jacked shots at the greatest rate in history".


As for the Lakers - Celtics series, I'm going to say Celtics in 6 or 7 just because I hate the Lakers.

I don't think many people would argue that. There's a reason he didn't come close to winning MVP that season.

As for T-Mac, yes it was a career year but I guess people forget because he flamed out in 1st Round like every other season. That's the thing about memories, they fade over time & that's why people think Kobe & Lebron are comparable to MJ, Magic & Bird when it's currently not even close.

[rise]

This series could really go any way. I chose Celtics in 7 because I want them to win and I want a nice long series with real competition that actually goes the way I want it to go. (For a Bobcats fan that usually doesn't happen, but whatever who cares? ) Even though the Celtics don't have anybody the caliber of Kobe, but overall they have better players.
The players that will really make a difference in this series:
CELTICS:
KG, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo
LAKERS:
Kobe, Artest, Pau Gasol, Derek Fisher
Other than them, I don't see anybody making a really big difference in this series. I see Ray Allen knocking down tons of 3s and Rondo doing lots of passing and playmaking for the Celtics. Kobe and Gasol will make getting the series a lot harder for the Celtics with Kobe scoring above 30 points a game and Pau Gasol being... Pau Gasol. Artest will make some buzzer-beaters-I'm not going to deny it, he's great but the Celtics really need to hold him down. But we also know Sasha Vujacic's plan: all of us who watched/saw highlights of the Lakers' last game against Phoenix. Shoved his arm into Goran Dragic's jaw so hard he went flying toward the ground.
I'm going to enjoy/hate watching this series.

[benji]

I don't think many people would argue that. There's a reason he didn't come close to winning MVP that season.

If we're talking about Kobe in 2005-06 I'd argue he should have won instead of Nash repeating.

And Kobe's year wasn't better or closer to Jordan than McGrady's. But it was the closest Kobe has ever come. It's more like Vince Carter's 2000-01.

[Alpha_]

BEAT L.A.!!! Celtics in game 6

[George7]

Celtics in 7 for me!
I hate the Celtics,but i hate the Lakers more,so BEAT LA!!

Voted "Should have been Suns/Magic"

[Andrew]

Voted "Should have been Suns/Magic"

It's proving to be a popular choice in the poll, tied with "Lakers in 6" as of this post.

[IcemanOutlaw]

Voted "Should have been Suns/Magic"

It's proving to be a popular choice in the poll, tied with "Lakers in 6" as of this post.

it means that Lakers vs Celtics is a boring Finals (coz they all have championship rings)

voted for Suns vs Magics though.

[Bruce]

As always the Lakers are volatile bunch. It is really hard to call. Whether Artest will keep playing like he is doing now, Bynum shows a little bit more like his former self. Fisher can at least keep Rondo at a certain level of play. Or Boston's big 3 shows up better than they did in the previous 3 series, Perkins takes care that he does not pick up that 7th technical foul. And then Boston with their wild card in Nate Robinson. Though I think Doc Rivers was mostly just jacking off Nate when he said Nate was big for them in the east championship awarding ceremony, LA really has troubles guarding quick guards.

I think both teams has what it takes to edge out the other, and that it will all be up to the coaches, and how well they play their team.

[Alpha_]

Voted "Should have been Suns/Magic"

oh yeah.. I'm hoping for that but errrr they're both eliminated..

[rise]

I was actually going for a Suns/Celtics final, but no, the Lakers had to win AGAIN. The Celtics are probably the better team, but the Lakers are tenacious as hell, so I went Celts in 7.

[Alpha_]

[Axel The Great]

Fisher can at least keep Rondo at a certain level of play.

What makes you say that? Derek Fisher was abused by Russell Westbrook in the first round. Rondo, a more experienced player, will rape the shit out of Derek Fisher in this series.