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[Wall St. Peon]

Yeah, Rens, I'm going to...I said I was going to ignore him, and I am...

Pierce, I suggest you open your mind a bit...not everyone is racist and not everyone is trying to put everyone in the same category...reread what I said, take a deep breath, and open your mind.

Sorry for detracting from your mock draft post.

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

I didn't suggest everyone was a racist, I suggest you are "Enahs Live".

I never was destracted nor was my vision blurred, I was on point and remain there.

If you boys want to leave it alone, I would think you should, considering all that was said.

[Wall St. Peon]

I didn't suggest everyone was a racist, I suggest you are "Enahs Live".

The only race I don't like are Smurfs....and that's because they're short, blue, and they keep screwing my dog...

Now, what does that statement have to do with your statement, besides the racism facet? Ooo, I know...they're both figments your imagination...

I'm out like the fat kid in dodge ball...

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

Enahs Live

American professionals - mostly African-Americans - are quicker and more athletic than the majority of foreigners. The focuses in America are totally different: how how you can jump, how fast you can run, how sick your cross over is, how many threes you can make, etc....stuff for the high light reel. Europeans learn how to take shots off screens, set screens, run motion offenses, make good passes (name a European who's a bad passer...I can name a bunch that are great passers), and so on; they learn the fundamentals.

This a racist and baseless statement, black players lack fundamentals, yet they still focus on jumping, running fast, dunking, crossovers and making the highlight reels. This is what your saying right?

I really wonder what Ray Allen would say to this.

[Wall St. Peon]

I said the focus in America, meaning nearly all Americas...the general focus...that encompasses all races...I just said most of the players in the NBA are African-Americans...they are..it's a fact...

I'm good friends with quite a few members of the Iowa State football team and a couple guys off the basketball team....guess what? They're black....

Drop it...

[Rens]

paul_pierce, obviously you don't know the difference between showing a fact that's near stereotyping, but still a fact (MOST young American players ARE behind in the fundamentals department compared to their European counterparts), and racism.

Racism is stereotyping in a wrong way.
Stereotyping is not by default racism.

A lot of times, stereotypes are actually true, racist stereotypes aren't, or they wouldn't be racism. If they weren't racist stereotypes, it would mean they are true.

[Matt]

Garnett and Duncan are what Milicic thinks he is or will be, that I gotta see.

i don't think Milicic ever said that

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

Even though you are now dancing around what you said, you still said it.

The oldest way to escape: My friend here is black.

Big deal.

I will now drop it, but I understand everything that was said, you are not the only one who says this, it's widely believed myth.

Ray Allen is an example of a fundamental jumpshooter, an athlete and intelligent player. I don't believe in Europe that the fundamentals are taught any differently than at Duke or Mt. St. Mary's High School.

Dan Gadzuric wrote:

A lot of times, stereotypes are actually true, racist stereotypes aren't, or they wouldn't be racism. If they weren't racist stereotypes, it would mean they are true.

Come again??

[Wall St. Peon]

The thing is that it wasn't a racist comment and I have a ton of friends that are black...if I was truly racist, would I have a single thing to do with anyone like yohance or stevie hicks or hiawatha rutland or cephus johns or brandon brown or tim barnes? I mean, seriously, you're reading way into everything...

Stereotypes are stereotypes because a great number of people are that way...not everyone, but a great deal, so people stereotype someone based on that quality because of the majority...you know, like white guys can't dance, that sort of thing...

One last time: the focus of the majority of American basketball players isn't fundamentals, it's getting on the highlight real and doing cool stuff. Why do you think And 1 Mix Tapes are so popular now but streetball was an underground thing 10 years ago? Now it's mainstream...

Europeans are more coachable...there's been many articles written about young athletes and coaching...many American parents of good athletes tell their kids they don't have to listen to the coach and stuff like that. If a player is told they're good by everyone, then they're less likely to listen to one person telling them where they need to improve...

Apparently when I say 'American' though, you automatically assume I'm talking about African-Americans, like white basketball players don't exist in the US...isn't that racism as well? It DOES work both ways, buddy...

[benji]

Garnett and Duncan are what Milicic thinks he is or will be, that I gotta see.

i don't think Milicic ever said that

"I don't want to compare my game to anyone, but I respect (Kevin) Garnett and (Tim) Duncan." - Darko Milicic

According to Will Robinson it is the speed, quickness and ball handling ability of a guard but being 7 foot tall is how he is compared to KG and Duncan.

Bagaric, Dalibor
Medvedenko, Stanislav
Potapenko, Vitaly
Rebraca, Zeljk
Trybanski, Cezary
Tskitishvili, Nikoloz

Bagaric is an average passer for a big man and had improved this year...
Medvedenko is a low-to-average passer for a power forward, but has good ball handling...
Potapenko is inbetween them...
Zelly is pretty poor...BUT...he's also a black hole so I don't think his passing ability is really seen...
Tybanski is pretty bad...
Skita is actually quite good...he's great for a PF, and above-average for a SF...

saying American players are quicker and more athletic than foreigners isn't racist...American isn't a race and foreigner isn't a race...

to be honest I stopped reading after Shane started posting a lot...so my heartfelt apologies if I repeat anyone...contact me on MSN, i'll give you an e-hug...

European players (since that's the location of the major foreign leagues, Asia and Oceania have theirs but they don't produce the gross of non-American born players) are generally more polished in terms of basketball fundamentals while American players are generally more polished in the flash and athleticism.

I believe the reason for this is two-fold. One, in Europe there generally aren't rules limiting the number of hours coaches can spend with their players, thus allowing more time for teaching. They also concentrate on the fundamentals because that is how they win, by actually out-shooting their opponents. There also appears to be a team concept that is lost in the United States.

Here, in the United States, the good players fly all over the country playing with different players, transferring to certain schools, doing the AAU thing, etc. They aren't spending time in a gym developing their game. If they're really talented and famous like a LeBron James they have even less time to just plain work on their games. Add in the High Skewl rules and they don't get the teaching. Thus they can't shoot.

Which is why the deadly offensive teams employ foreigners. They can shoot the lights out.

You state 7.36% of the NBA did not come from the Americas (thus why you left out Ginobili and Hilario) and that there are seven stars. I don't believe any of them attended an American university.

Now, how many high skewl stars are there? Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Jermaine O'Neal, Amare Stoudemire...and...Rashard Lewis?

Then you have a few hanging around on rookie deals, or still developing. But you don't have 7.36% of the league from high skewl...

I don't believe you can compare once they go to an American university. Since the majority of the foreigners are coming over around high skewl age.

I see it as the new trend. The late 80s really introduced drafting the underclass. The late 90s brought in the high skewler. Then around 2000 the foreigners (who trickled in during the 90s) started to blossom into more than role players (which most of them aside from Drazen, Kukoc...and that bum Dino Radja...had developed into) and could actually be superstars. Then as more and more successful players were found overseas, more teams had to send more scouting power there. Everyone knows about the 6-7, awesome dunker with mad handlez from Philly (who also appears in Miami, Chicago, LA, NY, etc. al.) but not everyone knows about that 7-2, sweet shooting big man from a tiny farm village in Romania until you bring him over. But by then, you've got the advantage.

Eventually it will all balance out because everyone will have their foreigners and their American-born players and they'll have to find their next "secret weapon"

Of course, that's when Don Nelson starts taking trips to Mars.

[air gordon]

i don't know if this is relevant to this topic.. but i would like to point out that arguably 3 of the top 5 players in the nba (kevin garnett, tracy mcgrady, and kobe bryant) came directly from high school to the nba

[Rens]

Had they gone to college, they probably would've turned out the same.

[air gordon]

Had they gone to college, they probably would've turned out the same.

please explain why

[paul_pierce_the_truth]

Europeans are more coachable...there's been many articles written about young athletes and coaching...many American parents of good athletes tell their kids they don't have to listen to the coach and stuff like that. If a player is told they're good by everyone, then they're less likely to listen to one person telling them where they need to improve...

Apparently when I say 'American' though, you automatically assume I'm talking about African-Americans, like white basketball players don't exist in the US...isn't that racism as well? It DOES work both ways, buddy...

Now you are backpeddling and ducking, you brought the "Afro-Americans" statement to this discussion, not just Americans, buddy!

American professionals - mostly African-Americans - are quicker and more athletic than the majority of foreigners. The focuses in America are totally different: how how you can jump, how fast you can run, how sick your cross over is, how many threes you can make, etc....stuff for the high light reel. Europeans learn how to take shots off screens, set screens, run motion offenses, make good passes (name a European who's a bad passer...I can name a bunch that are great passers), and so on; they learn the fundamentals.

You opened the door on this racism, not me, I never said anything about white players not exsisting in America, what are you talking about??
I focused on the above non-sense.

You can have as many black friends as you say you have, but still believe certain things, such as black players focus on making the highlight reels and do not focus on jumpshooting and fundamentals.

Now you are saying parents tell their kids not to listen to coaches in America, so now both the parents of these players and the players themselves are ignorant to the teachings of basketball, just wild stuff.

When is someone going to see how deep and how much this Enahs Live is guy is biting off here.

Name all your black friends, that is fine, obviously you have don't view blacks as coachable or interested learning fundamentals, coaches in America can not teach, nor do some parents expect or want their kids to listen and learn. This is just outragous.

The more people ignore this kind of talk, or even encourage it, the more this guy will say. But I guess I need some more warnings for my statements.

All I ever said was this:

Europeans have made very little impact on NBA basketball thus far, they are coming and I look forward to it. I also dismiss the myth that the Europeans are coached better, are better shooters, are learning from an ealier age under a better system. I also do not believe the focus of black players in America is off base, I don't care what you read or whatever, Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Caron Butler and players like this do work very hard on their all-around games, I believe LeBron James has worked on his jumpshot more than this guy says, he doesn't just go in the gym and see what dunk he can create next. It's absurd speculation.

The whole notion that these Yugoslavians among other European players are going through better system is non-sense, the proof is in the NBA, where are all these great shooters? Where are all these fundamentally gifted players? Where?

Ben wrote:

Then you have a few hanging around on rookie deals, or still developing. But you don't have 7.36% of the league from high skewl...

This discussion long turned from High School/European comparisons, to the afro-american (or american) vs. the European ways of viewing, teaching and playing basketball.

Last edited by paul_pierce_the_truth on Sun Jun 08, 2003 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

[TheBob]

Had they gone to college, they probably would've turned out the same.

please explain why

Because they're damn talented and have great work ethics?

[EGarrett]

afro-american

What year is this? 1960?

Lock this topic before people start choking on the feet in their mouths...

[Andrew]

I think locking is the way to go. For the record, I think this whole discussion has been a great misunderstanding filled with wild accusations. I feel sometimes we read too much into what other people are posting, and that we become too confrontational. I'm not punishing anyone, I'm not reprimanding anyone for what has transpired in this thread. I'm simply stopping it before it goes any further.

My apologies to thesport for locking a thread that was not intended to incite a flame.