Bad Coaches

[benji]

How about we change things up, and actually put the burden on other posters to make an argument regarding their position and attempt to defend the point that the Hawks players are elite players who together form a team that wins?

[Riot]

I'd take Flip Saunders back anyday of the week. I miss Flip and I think he is still one of the best coaches in the league. Since he has left we've been stuck with an idiot (McHale), a guy in over his head (Casey) and Mr. Clueless (Wittman). I still have faith in Wittman and I think he can be a decent coach in this league but I don't think he will ever coach in the NBA Finals.

[Klayface]

I don't think there is such thing as a "bad" coach. It's not as if teams are hiring guys who call the ball a puck and think the field isn't brown enough. You have to seperate between actual player contribution and coaches contributions to a win or a loss. Look at Doc Rivers, he was torn apart anually and now that he has KG/Pierce/Allen they are suddenly the best team in the league.

Same thing with Sam Mitchell. He was never considered a good coach until Toronto got really good.

However, some coaches really do suck. Flip Saunders is awful, and Isiah is pathetic.

Didn't Doc win coach of the year with an Orlando team that should have won like 10 games, and lead them to the playoffs?

And Sam Mitchell? The guy coachs the Raptors, the only team in Canada because the other team had to leave due to nobody wanting to play in Canda. The first couple of years he had to deal with players who didn't even want to be there, or even cared about winning. When new GM's take over they usually axe the coach thats already there and get "their" guy. Why do you think Sams still there? The dude is bad ass.

[Andrew]

Rivers did win COY in 2000 with the Magic but they fell a couple of games short of the Playoffs despite finishing with a .500 record.

[Klayface]

Ahh, the good ol' days when the East wasn't THAT bad.

[Lamrock]

Ahh, the good ol' days when the East wasn't THAT bad.

Says the guy with Stephon Marbury and Knicks-era Steve Francis in his signature.

[Klayface]

Notice the big word behind them?

That would be refering to the Knicks franchise.

[Bruce]

After Jeff Van Gundy left and Isiah took over and Layden was fired and Spree was out, I thought the Knicks couldn't get any worse. Isiah, Starbury, Francis and Randolph proved me wrong.

[Klayface]

JVG saw the train wreck coming and bailed out before it got worse, very smart move on his part.

But anyway, I really think Pat Riley should just give up coaching. The league is much different than what it was 20 years ago. The level of atheltisism is at a much higher level, to say the least. Like the saying goes, you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

I mean, remember a few years back when Riley gave up on the team and made Stan Van Gundy the coach? They had less than 10 wins at that point, and at the end of the season they were in the playoffs.

[Laxation]

I'd take Flip Saunders back anyday of the week. I miss Flip and I think he is still one of the best coaches in the league. Since he has left we've been stuck with an idiot (McHale), a guy in over his head (Casey) and Mr. Clueless (Wittman). I still have faith in Wittman and I think he can be a decent coach in this league but I don't think he will ever coach in the NBA Finals.

True, you could do worse than Saunders, but Saunders just isnt a good enough coach to win the lot. Not making in game adjustments will get you raped.

[Jeffx]

Isiah Thomas
Isiah Thomas
and Isiah Thomas

'nuff said. And Isiah keeps setting the bar lower & lower. He actually said(at a recent press conference) that Eddy Curry's conditioning isn't an issue. He did it with a straight face, too.

No set plays(just give a guy the ball and let him dribble for 15 seconds), no defense, no basketball I.Q., poor spacing. But Isiah thinks the team is 'making progress'. They're f-cking worse than last year!!!!!!!

If Brain-Dead Dolan doesn't fire him after this woeful season, I'm done with the Knicks until a new regime comes in.

[Andrew]

The odd thing about Isiah is that he was a great point guard and a smart player, who played on two championship teams, so you'd think he'd have a better idea of how to succeed in the NBA based on his own experience.

[benji]

Doesn't that assume great players or being on great teams means you know the game of basketball well enough to perform executive duties?

[Andrew]

I'm not saying that it guarantees great players will make great executives, but when they've been part of a winning team for several years and have a couple of championships to their name, they'd have some awareness or understanding of what kind of team is best equipped to seriously compete for the championship; I'd suggest Joe Dumars as an example of that. Obviously, it's not always the case and Isiah isn't the only one in that category.

Or perhaps if that's expecting too much of former greats, perhaps it would be safer to assume they would adopt a similar approach to the game as a coach or executive as they did as players or try to implement a system or build a roster with some familiarity or link to the teams they once played for. Today's Knicks certainly don't resemble the Pistons teams Isiah played for in personnel or philosophy.

[benji]

I don't know if Joe Dumars is an example. How can we know he wasn't always qualified to be a quality NBA executive and even if he had no NBA talent still would've assembled a premier team in his conference?

If anything, the number of successful NBA to front office transitions is likely skewed because former NBAers have years of natural networking. Of course, this backfires with your Magic Johnsons or Isiah Thomas. (Not that anyone should've expected any less from Thomas, it's not like he's ever shown he has any clue how to be an executive, he did bankrupt the CBA as one of his many executive disasters. I'd argue the only reason he continues to get hired in the first place is merely because he's a former NBA star.)

[Andrew]

We can't know that for sure but what we do know is that Dumars was a star player on one of the premier teams of the 80s that won two championships. I think it can be at least suggested that there's some link between that and his success in the front office, if only because the experience somehow influenced him when he put his business savvy to use with the Pistons.

[Bruce]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/st ... ons/080310

What this article says about Isiah Thomas is really hilarious. Suddenly, MJ picking Kwame Brown at 1 does not look all that bad. Right now, I can't come up with a name that can top Thomas' blunders as GM.

he did bankrupt the CBA as one of his many executive disasters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continenta ... ssociation

And on wikipedia, they have a blow-by-blow account of how Isiah screwed the CBA over, in true Detroit fashion.

[Jeffx]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/080310

What this article says about Isiah Thomas is really hilarious. Suddenly, MJ picking Kwame Brown at 1 does not look all that bad. Right now, I can't come up with a name that can top Thomas' blunders as GM.


[quote=benji]he did bankrupt the CBA as one of his many executive disasters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continenta ... ssociation

And on wikipedia, they have a blow-by-blow account of how Isiah screwed the CBA over, in true Detroit fashion. [/quote]

And in spite of Isiah's lousy track record, Dolan gave him the GM job anyway. That shows you who the real culprit is, because NY sucked under Layden too. This franchise is dead as long as Jim Dolan is alive.

[Abctest123]

The only thing I will say for Isiah is that he's got a decent eye for talent in scouting and drafting guys. Don't have the source, but I remember I read somewhere proving that point of decent picks he made. Then again, this thread is about coaches, and Isiah as a coah...heh, I won't go there .

[Bruce]

The only thing I will say for Isiah is that he's got a decent eye for talent in scouting and drafting guys. Don't have the source, but I remember I read somewhere proving that point of decent picks he made. Then again, this thread is about coaches, and Isiah as a coah...heh, I won't go there .

Wilson chandler and Renaldo Balkman??? Decent eye???

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/renaldo_balkman/
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/wilson_chandler/

2006 NBA Draft

20 - Renaldo Balkman (SF)
21 - Rajon Rondo (PG)
22 - Marcus Williams (PG)
23 - Josh Boone (F/C)
.
.

I think there would be a lot more NBL call ups that would play better that these two. I think if they fire Thomas now, the franchise would only be screwed until after next season. Thomas as a GM has been a blessing... to all other teams.

[Andrew]

What this article says about Isiah Thomas is really hilarious. Suddenly, MJ picking Kwame Brown at 1 does not look all that bad. Right now, I can't come up with a name that can top Thomas' blunders as GM.

If there's a saving grace to Michael Jordan's tenure in the Wizards' front office, it's that it didn't doom the franchise for years to come since the moves that shed declining players with huge contracts were helpful in the long run. Even if his moves weren't brilliant, the new regime had something to work with; if Isiah Thomas was fired tomorrow, whoever took over would have their work cut out for them to say the least.

[Abctest123]

Wilson chandler and Renaldo Balkman??? Decent eye???

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/renaldo_balkman/
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/wilson_chandler/

2006 NBA Draft

20 - Renaldo Balkman (SF)
21 - Rajon Rondo (PG)
22 - Marcus Williams (PG)
23 - Josh Boone (F/C)
.
.

I think there would be a lot more NBL call ups that would play better that these two. I think if they fire Thomas now, the franchise would only be screwed until after next season. Thomas as a GM has been a blessing... to all other teams.

With the Raptors:
1995: Damon Stoudamire
1996: Marcus Camby
1997: Tracy McGrady

With the Knicks:
2004: Trevor Ariza
2005: David Lee
2006: Renaldo Balkman

Those 3 picks for the Raptors were the three years he was with the team as GM (he left the team in early 1998, wasn't responsible for the Jamison-Carter trade). The two Knicks picks I chose to name were late first rounders. Quite a find to get David Lee with the final pick of the first round, while Renaldo Balkman has been a good hustle player for them. Yes, Balkman pales in comparison to some of the guys drafted after him, but for late first rounders, it's a hit or miss thing. By then, you aren't looking for a star player. Trevor Ariza was drafted in the second round and he's atleast a servicable player, though not with the Knicks.

[Indy]

I don't really see how he "pales in comparison" to the guys drafted after him. Rondo is a decent player who is benifiting from playing with three all-stars. Imagine the outrage if the Knicks had taken another guard at that time too. Marcus Williams hasn't done anything, and I'll take Balkman over Josh Boone every day of the week.

Its too early to judge on Chandler, but to suggest Isiah hasn't drafted well is ignorant.

[J@3]

I'll take Balkman over Josh Boone every day of the week.

Why?

[Mayerhendrix]

I've never been a fan of Pat Riley or Larry Brown. Riley's an opportunist who steps in when he sees a good situation and ditches when he gets into a bad one. Larry Brown has had his moments, but the man's attitude in some cases has just fucked up entire teams.