It's time again... 2007/2008 MVP Candidates

[benji]

The only argument anyone has made for Kobe is that he's playing worse this season, so he must be the MVP.

[dada]

Fair enough. Surprised you'd take such a simplistic standpoint to be honest.

[benji]

I haven't taken that standpoint. I don't think someone playing worse, and then buying into stupid media memes that the only reason the Lakers have improved is that Kobe is playing "less selfish" (despite taking as many shots and taking them earlier in the shot clock than last season) as evidenced by his lower stats (coming from...less assists and lower free throw shooting percentage) is reason to give someone a MVP award.

[dada]

I haven't taken that standpoint. I don't think someone playing worse, and then buying into stupid media memes that the only reason the Lakers have improved is that Kobe is playing "less selfish" (despite taking as many shots and taking them earlier in the shot clock than last season) as evidenced by his lower stats (coming from...less assists and lower free throw shooting percentage) is reason to give someone a MVP award.

Even I would admit that Kobe being less selfish is not the only reason LA has been playing better this season and though I will admit I wont go back and read every single post I will say that I highly doubt anyone has said anything down those lines.

Keyword: only

However, he has definitely played a large part wont you admit?

[benji]

How has he played less "selfish"? He is taking the same amount of shots and doing it earlier in the shot clock. His assists are down and turnovers are up. (In 2004-05, Kobe used fewer possessions and had more assists than this year...yet the Lakers were 34-48.)

The rest of the team is playing better. The team is better because it had a second All-Star calibur player for 35 games, and will end the season with possibly three All-Star calibur players. The team is better because the rotation finally has good players in it, the addition of Ariza (22), the continued development of Turiaf (25), Farmar (21) and Vujacic (23), and whatever rejuvination fluke has Fisher having the best year of his career.

It is not like Kobe just flipped some switch and they all suddenly got better. He's doing the same thing he's always done, there's just better players around him again. When you have good players (and two All-Stars) you win. When you win, everyone gets happier.

And the media likes to blame it all on the "star" so they can repeat the same simple narrative for six months. Just like they had spent the last few years blaming Kobe for being "selfish", when in reality the team was just shitty.

[cyanide]

benji has irrefutable evidence. GAME OVER.

Edit: Although, I admit that stats isn't everything. If Kobe made a pass to a player who made an assist, Kobe doesn't claim that assist. As for Kobe shooting more this season, it is also possible that there are more total shots, or more possessions going to Kobe. Of course, once benji reveals that is not the case, then I fail.

[dada]

How has he played less "selfish"? He is taking the same amount of shots and doing it earlier in the shot clock. His assists are down and turnovers are up.

The rest of the team is playing better. The team is better because it had a second All-Star calibur player for 35 games, and will end the season with possibly three All-Star calibur players. The team is better because the rotation finally has good players in it, the addition of Ariza (22), the continued development of Turiaf (25), Farmar (21) and Vujacic (23), and whatever rejuvination fluke has Fisher having the best year of his career.

It is not like Kobe just flipped some switch and they all suddenly got better. He's doing the same thing he's always done, there's just better players around him again. When you have good players (and two All-Stars) you win. When you win, everyone gets happier.

And the media likes to blame it all on the "star" so they can repeat the same simple narrative for six months.

Are there you go still running down that road.

Honestly, I'm chuckling a bit to myself presently because I find it hard to believe that anyone who actually watches Lakers games(which I believe you do as you wouldnt defend a claim without doing so) would so vehemently argue to not see him playing less selfish, not see him looking for and trusting his teammates alot more, not see him picking his spots alot better, not see him more as an accepted leader(finally) of such a young and exciting squad(more my view) and then belittle his contributions to their success in such a manner. On another note I do understand this is a view that wont change during our conversation so I'll refrain from barking up your tree.

[benji]

I'm chuckling a bit to myself presently because I find it hard to believe that anyone who actually watches Lakers games(which I believe you do as you wouldnt defend a claim without doing so) would so vehemently argue to not see him playing less selfish, not see him looking for and trusting his teammates alot more

Who cares what anyone "sees"?

Kobe Bryant is taking the same amount of shots and taking those shots earlier in the shot clock, assisting on fewer of the Lakers' baskets, and turning it over more. We can claim all we want he is playing "less selfishly", but the results are pretty much exactly the same as when he was "selfish" last season. (Not to mention 2004-05, 16% more assists and fewer possessions...yet he was "selfish" because they went 34-48.)

How is "trusting his teammates a lot more" a reason for him to be MVP? Or to prove he's suddenly "less selfish"? Of course he would trust them more, they are actually good teammates for a change. This does not mean he has made them into these good players, nor does this mean he is being "less selfish".

and then belittle his contributions to their success in such a manner

How am I belittling his contribution to their success? Did I not mention he's an All-Star calibur player? Without him, the Lakers would not be a Western contender. But it is completely laughable to claim Kobe somehow made his younger teammates improve (you know, like 100% of all young players) and that without him they would left to the NBDL, or that because the team is playing better (despite him doing the same things as last year) he's suddenly "less selfish" and therefore the MVP.

As for Kobe shooting more this season, it is also possible that there are more total shots, or more possessions going to Kobe.

I was using shots per 36 min, but I did check, Kobe's gone from 33.6% of the Lakers FGA's, to 32.7%. However he's gone from 25.6% of the Lakers turnovers to 27.9%. So he is missing a field goal attempt with an extra turnover.

Of course, this "less selfish" bullshit is just because we've spent three years where the meme was "Kobe is selfish, that is why the Lakers are not good" instead of again looking at the remainder of the team.

The Lakers were a 48 win team in 2005-06, Kobe used 38.8% of the Lakers possessions. A record. (Assisted on 24.2% of Lakers' baskets.) In 2004-05, Kobe used 31.7% (assisting on 28.5%), and they were a 33 win team. This year, he's using 32.7% (assisting on 24.6%), and they're on a 57 win pace. For some reason Kobe's "selfishness" doesn't seem to correlate with how well the Lakers do despite the meme.

[dada]

I'm chuckling a bit to myself presently because I find it hard to believe that anyone who actually watches Lakers games(which I believe you do as you wouldnt defend a claim without doing so) would so vehemently argue to not see him playing less selfish, not see him looking for and trusting his teammates alot more

Who cares what anyone "sees"?

Kobe Bryant is taking the same amount of shots and taking those shots earlier in the shot clock, assisting on fewer of the Lakers' baskets, and turning it over more. We can claim all we want he is playing "less selfishly", but the results are pretty much exactly the same as when he was "selfish" last season. (Not to mention 2004-05, 16% more assists and fewer possessions...yet he was "selfish" because they went 34-48.)

How is "trusting his teammates a lot more" a reason for him to be MVP? Or to prove he's suddenly "less selfish"? Of course he would trust them more, they are actually good teammates for a change. This does not mean he has made them into these good players, nor does this mean he is being "less selfish".

and then belittle his contributions to their success in such a manner

How am I belittling his contribution to their success? Did I not mention he's an All-Star calibur player? Without him, the Lakers would not be a Western contender. But it is completely laughable to claim Kobe somehow made his younger teammates improve (you know, like 100% of all young players) and that without him they would left to the NBDL, or that because the team is playing better (despite him doing the same things as last year) he's suddenly "less selfish" and therefore the MVP.

Two things I take from this:

1. Youve seen more Laker boxscores than games the past few years.
2. Your quoting my comments to reply but obviously not responding solely to me as I have no idea where your getting some of this stuff from.

[benji]

One thing I take from your responses:
1. You have no argument or evidence to support one, so you throw things at the person instead of the argument.

You said,

Theres really no need for me to write an article about why I feel he should win it as I'm sure I'll just be repeating alto of whats already been said

Therefore, I must assume you are ascribing to the various reasons given for a Kobe MVP. Unless, my original interpretation was most accurate: You're a Laker fan, therefore Kobe is MVP.

[Jackal]

You're a Laker fan, therefore Kobe is MVP.

Works for me.

[dada]

One thing I take from your responses:
1. You have no argument or evidence to support one, so you throw things at the person instead of the argument.

You said,

Theres really no need for me to write an article about why I feel he should win it as I'm sure I'll just be repeating alto of whats already been said

Therefore, I must assume you are ascribing to the various reasons given for a Kobe MVP. Unless, my original interpretation was most accurate: You're a Laker fan, therefore Kobe is MVP.

1. Says the man who doesnt take the time to watch their games.


I see where your taking this conversation and its a pity as it was interesting to a certain extent. Yes I said that but while I expressed my unwillingness to be repetitive you surely took the weak route of assuming I subscribe to every fantastical pro-Kobe view taken. Seriously, thats..uumm.. kinda special.

Watch some games and have a good one mate.

[benji]

More personal "attacks" instead of actual discussion and debate. Little surprise there from the "best posters" on this forum.

You said you didn't want to repeat what was already said for the Kobe for MVP argument. Why wouldn't you, unless you agreed with it? If you didn't, why wouldn't you make your own case for Kobe as MVP and not say "it's already been said"? You're pratically reaching a JT_55 level of cognitive display.

I'm not "taking this conversation" anywhere. You're the one that refuses to actually debate anything. I questioned the "Kobe is less selfish" meme, which is the entire justification anyone has given for his MVP status. I made my argument, I provided my evidence.

All you did was say "there you go again", "watch the games" and effectively "if you don't see it, you're blind". While making claims about me, and talking about how you're chuckling. That's not an argument. That's a bullshit copout because you don't have one of your own.

[BIG GREEN]

One thing I take from your responses:
1. You have no argument or evidence to support one, so you throw things at the person instead of the argument.

You said,

Theres really no need for me to write an article about why I feel he should win it as I'm sure I'll just be repeating alto of whats already been said

Therefore, I must assume you are ascribing to the various reasons given for a Kobe MVP. Unless, my original interpretation was most accurate: You're a Laker fan, therefore Kobe is MVP.

1. Says the man who doesnt take the time to watch their games.


I see where your taking this conversation and its a pity as it was interesting to a certain extent. Yes I said that but while I expressed my unwillingness to be repetitive you surely took the weak route of assuming I subscribe to every fantastical pro-Kobe view taken. Seriously, thats..uumm.. kinda special.

Watch some games and have a good one mate.

You refuse to back up to any of your claims for MVP with facts and continue to dodge by making it seem like a fact that Ben hasn't watched any laker games. That's weak.(n)

The fact is...you can't say global warming isn't real because the earth "looks" fine and anyone can "see" it. Facts are facts and to blindly claim that kobe is less selfish this season is ludicrous.

[Sauru]

So yeah, Kobe for MVP in my book.

Nowhere did you explain why...other than being a Laker fan?

Notice how Sauru outlined his procedure for choosing a player.

Oh please, recycling whats said every year when the MVP argument comes up really doesnt deserve that much praise. Theres really no need for me to write an article about why I feel he should win it as I'm sure I'll just be repeating alto of whats already been said. I apologize if I didnt break it down how you like it.

i dont recycle anything, thats my opinion on what a mvp should be, and if you consider it recycled then maybe its a good opinion if others feel the same way.

[Andrew]

Compared to what year? And how so?

Shooting worse, assisting less, and having more turnovers, while taking the same amount of shots as last year grants his teammates a greater opportunity and facilitates their growth?

He's attempting a couple fewer field goals per game but I didn't take his reduced minutes into account, that's my mistake. Of course, even if the "Kobe is playing unselfishly" argument is a complete fabrication of the media, that would still make him a frontrunner given it's the media who votes on the award.

[BIG GREEN]

As long as its not steve fucking nash or another player of similar calibur who just happens to be getting it just because his team has a good winning % i'll be happy

[benji]

As long as its not steve fucking nash or another player of similar calibur who just happens to be getting it just because his team has a good winning % i'll be happy

That's how Kobe would win it...by "making his teammates better" and the Lakers winning games.

Of course, even if the "Kobe is playing unselfishly" argument is a complete fabrication of the media, that would still make him a frontrunner given it's the media who votes on the award.

Who cares what the media thinks...If I want to read the MSM's take I can go read the MSM.

Who do you think deserves it? What are your opinions on the subject? (Since apparently the original post contained none of your own opinions and were simply a synthesis of media opinions?)

[Andrew]

Who cares what the media thinks...If I want to read the MSM's take I can go read the MSM.

I realise that, I merely suggested that right or wrong, the fact the media holds that point of view would make him a frontrunner for the award, deserving or not. Obviously, my original post lacked some research and as I said, I did not take into account that Kobe is playing fewer minutes when I glanced at his season stats.

Who do you think deserves it? What are your opinions on the subject?

For me, either Kevin Garnett or LeBron James would seem to be the top choices. On one hand I'd give it to KG because of the Celtics' record (along with the fact he fulfils the criteria that Sauru posted, which I tend to agree with) but at the same time it's difficult to go past LeBron because he's posting some great numbers and the team's record without him demonstrates his importance to their success, which does compensate for the Cavs having an inferior record in my book.

I'm divided because I don't think a player should be disqualified just because he has star teammates because that's been the case for most of the past MVPs, from Russell to Bird and Magic to Jordan, but at the same time I consider the Cavs being seven games above .500 (and likely would be better if LeBron hadn't missed six games earlier this season) behind LeBron averaging around 30, 8 and 7 and getting the job done in the clutch impressive as well.

I lean towards LeBron though because the Celtics have won games without KG, which is not to say he isn't the most valuable player on that team but so far the Cavs haven't won a game without LeBron in the lineup and I'd give him the nod in the stats department as well. So my pick would have to be LeBron though it's close for me because of the Celtics' record and KG also meeting the criteria.

[dada]

So yeah, Kobe for MVP in my book.

Nowhere did you explain why...other than being a Laker fan?

Notice how Sauru outlined his procedure for choosing a player.

Oh please, recycling whats said every year when the MVP argument comes up really doesnt deserve that much praise. Theres really no need for me to write an article about why I feel he should win it as I'm sure I'll just be repeating alto of whats already been said. I apologize if I didnt break it down how you like it.

i dont recycle anything, thats my opinion on what a mvp should be, and if

you consider it recycled then maybe its a good opinion if others feel the same way.

In reflection the comment seems somewhat offensive but it really wasnt intended as any sort of personal attack. The fact of the matter is every year the same thing is said and I was just stating that observation. Not necessarily the case that I think you are just copying someone else's words but I just found it amusing benji (?) would bring it up and if it were some sort of revolutionary standard the world has yet to be introduced to( of course I am exaggerating a bit). I apologize.

One thing I take from your responses:
1. You have no argument or evidence to support one, so you throw things at the person instead of the argument.

You said,

Theres really no need for me to write an article about why I feel he should win it as I'm sure I'll just be repeating alto of whats already been said

Therefore, I must assume you are ascribing to the various reasons given for a Kobe MVP. Unless, my original interpretation was most accurate: You're a Laker fan, therefore Kobe is MVP.

1. Says the man who doesnt take the time to watch their games.


I see where your taking this conversation and its a pity as it was interesting to a certain extent. Yes I said that but while I expressed my unwillingness to be repetitive you surely took the weak route of assuming I subscribe to every fantastical pro-Kobe view taken. Seriously, thats..uumm.. kinda special.

Watch some games and have a good one mate.

You refuse to back up to any of your claims for MVP with facts and continue to dodge by making it seem like a fact that Ben hasn't watched any laker games. That's weak.(n)

The fact is...you can't say global warming isn't real because the earth "looks" fine and anyone can "see" it. Facts are facts and to blindly claim that kobe is less selfish this season is ludicrous.

The incredible green one I see. Kinda off-subject but I just pictured you looking away and turning down your cap to accentuate your coolness after that thumbs down.

Statistics alone dont determine the quality of any player. Sorry. The same way I'm not providing statistical evidence to back up my claims is just as lacking as commenting on one's play without actually seeing them play (the odd game in a blue moon isnt enough).

Kobe Bryant back in the day I will admit used to be a black hole at times in my eyes. He held the ball too long and while he still got his assists it was still somewhat sour to some that he'd take the fadeaway over 3 players with playing lining up at the the arc begging for a pass. Of course I didnt mind much because he's Kobe Bryant. The observations I am discussing are based on years of watching Laker games and I was attempting to note something that does not show up in the statistical column but of course fans will always throw figures out there so its pointless to continue such a conversation with someone not watching games. The thing with statistics is that if all players were made equal they wouldnt put up the same numbers no matter what the system they are employed in. The triangle in LA is set up in a way that many times the guy who gets that assist isnt necessarily the most responsible for making the play happen. This applies to Kobe Bryant as well. I think Derek Fisher(who is having a great year shooting the ball) made a very interesting comment on Kobe Bryants play this year. He commented on the fact that all he has to train on these days are his spot up jump shots because Kobe Bryant attracts so much attention that the ball always works its way around to him with acres of room. Of course this isnt a direct quote as I was listening to an interview but thats pretty much a fair summary of my interpretation of his comments. In years past there was just no ball working its way anywhere.

Anyways, I'd love to have a long/agressive/emotional/personal etc etc chit chat about all this with you lot but at the rate I post on this forum and my unwillingness to spend hours responding back and forth with in-depth statistical evidence to prove my claim I doubt this could happen at a pace satisfactory to you lot. That said, I'll nod my head in both of your directions, move along and continue to browse through the other interesting topics on this forum.

[LakersRule24]

If MVP=Best player, it goes to Lebron.

If MVP=Best player on the best team the way it has been for the past decade, it goes to Kobe. Who would've thought that the Lakers would have gone this far after the dreadful offseason?

[Sauru]

kobe is not on the best team though so why would he get it?

[BIG GREEN]

Because the message was posted by a guy named "LakersRule24" and that logic alone is enough for someone like him.

[Drex]

If MVP=Best player on the best team the way it has been for the past decade, it goes to Kobe.

You're killing Chris Paul anytime soon?

[BIG GREEN]

If steve nash wins it again just because he's on the team with the best record and he's their best player then i'm done with nba basketball.