Kobe or LBJ in 2007-2008 season?

[Matthew]

You don't think providing good help defense, swinging the ball or setting off the ball screens help your teammates?

[benji]

That may help your teammates, but has nothing to do with offensive possessions.

[BIG GREEN]

Yep, i'm aLebron fanboy but for good reason. There's a reason why I didn't want to compare past seasons cause i knew it would be an arguement rather than discussion. So if everyone doesn't mind...lets focus on the current season.

I wish people would stop talking about what kobe could do stats wise....and talk about what he IS doing. Fact....he's loosing to Lebron in most categories especially the turnovers and assists. Those two pretty much proves who's more of a help to their team.

Yes, kobe is a better offensive player...but i question someone's basketball IQ that would rather a player who scores 2 points more per game but shoots a lower percentage...2 less assists and 2 less rebounds. However...with that said...who has a higher PPG between the two again?

[J@3]

I wish people would stop talking about what kobe could do stats wise....and talk about what he IS doing. Fact....he's loosing to Lebron in most categories especially the turnovers and assists. Those two pretty much proves who's more of a help to their team.

Then why make a thread asking the question if you already knew the answer

[BIG GREEN]

I don't KNOW the answer....I have an strong opinion that I wanted to debate. That's something I like doing because of my passion for the sport.

[BiGrEd819]

lebron himself referred to kobe as the best player in the league numerous times before in front of the television. was he being modest? maybe maybe not. I love lebron, his game, and his talent; however, at this moment, kobe is much better carrying his team to a win. honestly its not even fair how people compare those 2. lebron's game consist of him doing a lil bit of everything. anyone who played organized form of basketball will know every position has a certain role to fulfill.

there are still a couple of things that lebron needs to improve on. and for those who are lebron fanboys claiming he is better than kobe; he will be better, just not right now.

[benji]

That post was incredible.

I mean that, well, I can't explain it.

I'll just use this.

[BIG GREEN]

It's the most popular argument..."he's better because he just is..."

[Deathbringer]

kobe is doing a lebron and lebron is doing a kobe

[Matt]

To me, it's still Kobe because of....

1. his desire to win
2. still the best player to have take a last second shot no matter how difficult
3. far superior defender

Kobe isn't the most gifted player relative to other guys, but he's the hardest worker for sure and that's what makes him #1.

[benji]

I don't think I even understand internet punditry anymore.

Actually, I'm sure nostalga is blocking out the past and nobody was required to make even remotely defensible statements back then either.

[Sauru]

without sitting here and going into all the numbers i would take lebron. i personally believe kobe is the best individual talent in the nba right now, i would take lebron on me team this season before i would take kobe

[benji]

Kobe isn't the most gifted player

kobe is the best individual talent

Debate plz.

[tommi]

Lebron is a much better all around performer than Kobe. He fills up the entire stat sheet. Not just one column. Kobe is still more clutch, but I'd rather have a guy like Lebron who has proven to be an unselfish superstar who can get it done in on the boards, in the assist column, and on the scoreboard.

I don't know, Kobe seems pretty unselfish too. LeBron currently is in the situation that Kobe has been the past two years which is, carrying the team by himself. Kobe had a tougher task though being in the West. I think curently LeBron is better offensively, but then again, The Lakers have been blowing away opponents that he sits most of the 4th quarter, thus, plays less minutes than LeBron, if he had been playing more minutes right now, i think their stats would be identical. There is one thing that separates them though, defense, Kobe has always been a great shut down defender. So uhh, LeBron has been Cool but, I still wouldn't say he's better all-around than Kobe.

[tommi]

To me, it's still Kobe because of....

1. his desire to win
2. still the best player to have take a last second shot no matter how difficult
3. far superior defender

Kobe isn't the most gifted player relative to other guys, but he's the hardest worker for sure and that's what makes him #1.

+1

Phil Jackson and Tex Winter said it, he works harder than Michael Jordan.

And ryes, Kobe, unlike LeBron wasn't a superstar when he entered the League ,he wasn't pampered like a little baby like LeBron, but he has damn sure worked his way to his supestar status. LeBron is no doubt physically gifted which makes it quite easy for him to have his way on the court. But when it comes to will, persistence, work ethic and overcoming adversity Kobe definitely is #1.

[The X]

To me, it's still Kobe because of....

1. his desire to win
2. still the best player to have take a last second shot no matter how difficult
3. far superior defender

Kobe isn't the most gifted player relative to other guys, but he's the hardest worker for sure and that's what makes him #1.

+1

Phil Jackson and Tex Winter said it, he works harder than Michael Jordan.

And ryes, Kobe, unlike LeBron wasn't a superstar when he entered the League ,he wasn't pampered like a little baby like LeBron, but he has damn sure worked his way to his superstar status. LeBron is no doubt physically gifted which makes it quite easy for him to have his way on the court. But when it comes to will, persistence, work ethic and overcoming adversity Kobe definitely is #1.

I wouldn't say Lebron was pampered....he had the weight of expectation on his shoulders....Lebron was NBA ready skill-wise & body wise when he entered the league, Kobe wasn't, he was more superstar potential....

I wouldn't say that Lebron being physically gifted makes it "quite easy" for him....it is the toughest basketball league in the World....he faces the other team's best defenders every game, & he like all stars, will take his beatings....

it doesn't matter how talented & physically gifted someone is, it still would've taken tremendous amount of time & effort to get to his level....

for every Lebron, there is a Korleone Young, a Tim Thomas, an Eddie Griffin, even an OJ Mayo....

[tommi]

I wouldn't say Lebron was pampered....he had the weight of expectation on his shoulders

.



There goes my point then, his weight of expectations basically made him a superstar, being drafted #1 overall by a team with the worst record, and that team got rid of it's leading scorer (Ricky Davis) to build the team around LeBron. LeBron's team was basically set up for him. Kobe on the other hand was drafted #13 and was traded right after he was drafted, he wasn't the best player on his team, he wasn't superstar right away. But to start out like that and then reach his current level, that explains my point as to why he works harder than everyone else, including Michael Jordan.

[BIG GREEN]

None of this has anything to do with who the best player this season is. If I "desired" to win basketball games more than kobe and did 2000 push ups and jumpshots a day...then that would make me a better player than kobe wouldn't it? Actual performance on the basketball court has nothing to do with it according to you guys.

What exactly makes you guys so sure that kobe "desires" winning more than Lebron? Because he complains in the media? Once again, I must remind you guys that this discussion focuses on this season. I haven't seen kobe do anything this season on an individual standpoint so far that proves any of this. Since i've made this topic I saw Lebron single handedly bring the cavaliers back from a 20 point deficit by scoring 24 points in the fourth quarter. After that i saw him take the last second shot to send another game into double overtime where he made the final assist to damon jones for a winning 3 pointer. He had 31 points, a career high 19 rebounds, 8 assists, 4 blocks and 3 steals in that game. If thats not reprisentative of "desire" and "clutch"....i dunno what is.


I watch every single laker and cavs game I can....and i'm willing to bet thats not the same with alot of you...so you're probably making comments on past seasons. Yes...last second shots are good...but you're gonna select a player based on who could take a last second shot...when it only comes to that maybe 2 or 3 games in a season?

EDIT: Suprise Suprise....look who leads the league in fourth quarter points.

http://www.ohio.com/sports/cavs/13760652.html

I direct you to the bottom paragraphs of the article.

[tommi]

None of this has anything to do with who the best player this season is. If I "desired" to win basketball games more than kobe and did 2000 push ups and jumpshots a day...then that would make me a better player than kobe wouldn't it? Actual performance on the basketball court has nothing to do with it according to you guys.

What exactly makes you guys so sure that kobe "desires" winning more than Lebron? Because he complains in the media? Once again, I must remind you guys that this discussion focuses on this season. I haven't seen kobe do anything this season on an individual standpoint so far that proves any of this. Since i've made this topic I saw Lebron single handedly bring the cavaliers back from a 20 point deficit by scoring 24 points in the fourth quarter. After that i saw him take the last second shot to send another game into double overtime where he made the final assist to damon jones for a winning 3 pointer. He had 31 points, a career high 19 rebounds, 8 assists, 4 blocks and 3 steals in that game. If thats not reprisentative of "desire" and "clutch"....i dunno what is.


I watch every single laker and cavs game I can....and i'm willing to bet thats not the same with alot of you...so you're probably making comments on past seasons. Yes...last second shots are good...but you're gonna select a player based on who could take a last second shot...when it only comes to that maybe 2 or 3 games in a season?

But you have seen Kobe do something on an individual standpoint 2 years ago right? Why is that? The Lakers were a mediocre team. Which is what the Cavs are now. Kobe's teammates have stepped up bigtime,they have a better PG. They have an improved C and backup PG. result? They blow most of their opponents out. Kobe sits out most of the 4th quarter, end of story.

I think LeBron is better OFFENSIVELY this season but to be fair, Kobe had almost the same if not better numbers the past two years when he was in a mediocre team. You wanna talk about individual performances, fine how about, being down by as much as 18 in a game, Kobe scores 55 in the 2nd half, and they won by 16(you probably know how many points he scored right?) and before that , scoring 50+ for 3 or 4 games in a row. That looks like desire to me too, given that no one was even expecting his team to be in the playoffs,since he plays in the more difficult conference.

Also, I take in to account defense, in which Kobe is clearly better. having more blocks or steals is good but if you are able shut down the best player in an opposing team like Kobe , that's more impressive.

If Kobe's team(a.k.a. The Lakers ) has the same or a worse record as LeBron's team(a.k.a. The Cavs ) with both having the same numbers they currently have,then I would easily say LeBron is better this year. I understand where you're coming from and I respect it, but I think you're being unfair to Kobe since he is now in a different situation as LeBron is. They are winning a lot more and we shouldn't punish him for that.

[BIG GREEN]

If you're going to continue talking about what kobe did years ago...and continue talking about who has a better team then I won't acknowledge your posts. Nothing personal but you obviously are missing the point of this thread. When making claims, it adds to your credibility to site situations or statistics to back it up...THIS SEASON.

Also, I take in to account defense, in which Kobe is clearly better

When and how is this clear...THIS SEASON? Just like kobe...Lebron has also requested to guard the best player on the opposite team. The cavaliers have a much better record when he plays as opposed to when he was out for 6 games...which accounts for thier record. Since Lebron has been back? They have gone with only 3 losses. Defense is one ability...what about his ability to rebound and to set up his teammates with assists....THIS SEASON?

Debating 101...this is how someone makes a claim then backs it up http://www.nba.com/games/20071220/LALCLE/boxscore.html
Keep in mind that they guarded each other in that game.

this is from a recap of that game..

The two superstars wanted to guard each other in the final moments: Kobe on LeBron. LeBron on Kobe.

It had to end like that.

"I didn't even ask,'' James said. "I just told Sasha (Pavlovic) to go somewhere else.''

James scored 33 points and shut out Bryant when the NBA's top two scorers went one-on-one in the final 2:23 and the Cleveland Cavaliers bounced back from a dismal loss with a 94-90 victory over the Los Angeles Lakers on Thursday night.

I won't be responding to your posts on this topic again my friend.

[j.23]

yohance, how much do we take into account overall team success in judging whether player a is better than player b?

[BIG GREEN]

I don't remember Micheal Jordan, Bill Russell, Kareem..etc...none of them having a dip in stats when their respective teams started winning tons and tons of games and championships. Using the excuse that he has a good team is testiment to his lack of leadership. All that tells me is that..his team has to be shit for him to perform the best.

If he has to score less because he has to share the ball then his rebounding and assisting should be higher to compensate. Instead...all i see is him scoring less points and shooting a worse percentage...with everything else remaining the same.

[J@3]

I don't remember Micheal Jordan, Bill Russell, Kareem..etc...none of them having a dip in stats when their respective teams started winning tons and tons of games and championships.

Hmm? Jordan did, he averaged roughly 35 ppg in the four seasons including a 37ppg one before the first three-peat, during it his scoring went down to around 31... so a difference of -4 give or take. His assists went up significantly during the three-peat too, which would suggest he became more of a "team" player at the expense of his own individual scoring. The difference in scoring this year compared to last year for Kobe is currently -4 aswell. I'd look up the other guys you mentioned but I can't be bothered.

[BIG GREEN]

I don't remember Micheal Jordan, Bill Russell, Kareem..etc...none of them having a dip in stats when their respective teams started winning tons and tons of games and championships.

Hmm? Jordan did, he averaged roughly 35 ppg in the four seasons including a 37ppg one before the first three-peat, during it his scoring went down to around 31... so a difference of -4 give or take. His assists went up significantly during the three-peat too, which would suggest he became more of a "team" player at the expense of his own individual scoring. The difference in scoring this year compared to last year for Kobe is currently -4 aswell. I'd look up the other guys you mentioned but I can't be bothered.

Now this is how you debate gents...backing up your claims with proof.
I took special notice that you said Jordan's assists went up when his scoring went down.....compensation. However how about our friend kobe?

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_brya ... stats.html

...wow look...i'm suprised..he's averaging .3 less assists pergame so far this season. It isn't much..but it helps to prove my point.

[J@3]

...wow look...i'm suprised..he's averaging .3 less assists pergame so far this season. It isn't much..but it helps to prove my point.

Not really. Kobe's minutes are down by 4mpg, he's averaging 5.5 assists per/40 this season compared to 5.3 last season. His usage rate is also down on last season, but his assist ratio is actually higher this season than last.