Rebirth of the center?

[shadowgrin]

I base it on my biased opinion of watching their games. It's better for me that way.

[grusom]

So are you guys going on what other people say about Wilt or have you actually seen his physical and athletic abilities? Because from what I understand, people thought he was a freak because no one at that time could do what he did. I believe Dwight is probably at least as physically and athletically gifted as the great man.

Take a look at these quotes from his wikipedia article:

"In his early years, Chamberlain was an avid track and field athlete, posting statistics of a decathlete. As a youth, he high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches, ran the 440 yards in 49.0 seconds and the 880 yards in 1:58.3, put the shot 53 feet, 4 inches, and broad jumped 22 feet."

"He ran the 100-yard dash in 10.9 seconds, threw the shotput 56 feet, triple jumped more than 50 feet, and won the high jump in the Big Eight track and field championships three straight years.[10] Another of Wilt's feats while at KU was to record a 550-pound bench press."

[Silas]

The 440 is slightly longer than the 400m, so running the 440 in 49.0 would put you in around low 48, and running the 400m in low 48 would place you high in state in almost every state in High School Track, and would win most lower classifications. Take the state of Washington's 4A 400m winning time in state last year, 48.67. Washington is one of the better track and field states in the country. If wilt could run a 49.0 440 he could compete for the 400m. And a time of 48.67 would give you the chance to run division 1 at many schools.

And that's just one of the mentioned above events. His 880 time would place him well in state, as well as the others he competed in.

The man was much more athletic than many of the top athletes in the NBA today.

[Indy]

OK, I didn't do a good job really clarifying what I meant. In the last 20 years we have had 3 different types of big men in the league. Above the rim guys like Dwight, Amare, Kenyon Martin (with New Jersey), jumpshooting bigs like Dirk, Brad Miller, Okur and Close to the basket dominant centers. David Robinson is the only one I would back down on as far as the above the rim stuff went. I forgot what a monster he was early in his career because he was so successful playing a steady anchor role with San Antonio later in his career. He was able to venture in to the above the rim category, while Hakeem and Patrick Ewing ventured into the midrange and were good shooters out to 19-20 feet.

Dwight Howard began as a strictly above the rim player that relied on atheticism. He is starting to show signs of being a real Center this season which is why I say he has the potential to really lift his game to a level the dominant Centers of the 90s couldn't.

[benji]

OK, I didn't do a good job really clarifying what I meant. In the last 20 years we have had 3 different types of big men in the league

That is a entirely different argument than:

Hakeem, Kareem, David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, guys like that who were great centers of the past were not athletic.

benji if you truely think those guys are the athletic specimen that Dwight Howard is, you didn't watch them enough, or you haven't watched Dwight enough.

Or the other one, which I completely rejected mentally and just now am realizing exists:

but in 3-4 years [Amare Stoudemire and Dwight Howard] are going to be the unquestioned greatest big men to ever play the game

You never said anything about styles of players, you directly stated those players are not athletic. Then when challenged on the point with videos, you told the challenger "lol, watch more basketball plz". You're not backing down on David Robinson, you're backing out of the entire argument you made.

[Indy]

Obviously everybody who plays in the NBA is athletic. I already said I did not do a good job getting across the point I was trying to get across originally. I used the word athletic, when I should have described it as playing above the rim.

I originally should have said that Dwight and Amare get more easy points because of their leaping ability in a game then Hakeem, David, Patrick or guys like that ever did. If they continue to improve their post games and fundamentals to a level that is even anywhere near where the guys of the 90s were, then they could put up numbers that would have them in the greatest of all time category.

And I did not watch those videos, I don't have to. I grew up watching those guys play all the time, I know how they played and you know as well as I or anybody else that they worked harder for their points then Dwight and Amare do.

But if you want to use videos as evidence, this is vintage Hakeem right here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRG ... re=related He dominated with his footwork at ballfakes, that was his forte.

[benji]

No, I don't. I have no idea how hard they worked, only they do. Wilt and Kareem often scored "effortlessly" in their youth. Even in the years you "grew up watching", Hakeem and Robinson displayed segments of dominant scoring capabilities with little "effort". (What about an Artis Gilmore? Shooting 70%?) I don't see how Dwight and Amare can be on the verge of surpassing Wilt and Kareem in the middle, even Shaq, just because they dunk a lot. Yao's been dominating for three years and few not from East Asia have been talking about him as the best big man in history.

Dwight currently is such a good offensive player because he gets a lot of assisted dunks and offensive rebounds, the rest of his scoring is unspectacular. Amare gets more than half his scoring from jump shots and throws down dunks at about the same rate as Eddy Curry.

Not that being "above the rim" players even means anything related to the quality of a player. Kareem and Wilt didn't dunk out of principle, both could've easily been "above the rim" players. Robinson and Hakeem also weren't "dunk on you" guys like Amare and Howard are, they preferred to finesse their scores as children of the 70s did. It is a different mentality type, which does not describe a "quality" of a player, merely a style.

I guess I don't see the evidence for the claim that Dwight and Amare are scoring easier than any big man in the history of the sport, and therefore they are destined to become the two greatest players to ever play.

EDIT:

But if you want to use videos as evidence, this is vintage Hakeem right here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRG ... re=related

Vintage? He's 32!

[Indy]

For the most part I think you are correct. I don't actually think Dwight and Amare are on the cusp of being 2 of the greatest players ever. I am trying to go out on a limb to stir up some discussion, but I do think that some of what I've said does make sense (probably not most of it though.) I think that Dwight and Amare are 2 examples of players we've never really seen before. The bread and butter plays for those 2 guys are more un-defendable then anything that anyone else that size has ever brought to the table. Of course Robinson and Hakeem could dunk on guys, but they certainly couldn't pull down lobs that almost reach the top of the backboard and throw them down. Dwight and Amare have brought a new style of play to the Center position. If they continue to improve fundamentally they will be in the conversation with the others.

[Silas]

More undefendable than Kareem's skyhook or Shaq backing someone down in the lane? To this day many post players still think Shaq is harder to defend than Amare or Dwight Howard.

If that is more undefendable than anything a man that size has ever brought to the game, then how come they never have averaged over 30ppg like Wilt did for his entire career?

[---]

I thought what Indy was trying to say was that because Dwight already has freakish athleticism, is as great a "vertical athlete" (I just made that up) for a big as there's ever been, if he ever developed the actual skill on top of his physical gifts he could be, or surpass, the level of those 90's centers he mentioned.

On the topic of Wilt, what a fucking freak. Insane.

[cheater1034]

Big Z is averaging a double double

[Axel]

From what I have read and seen through clips (since I wasn't an NBA fan, and was much too young at the time), Hakeem Olajuwon is the most fundamentally sound center of all time. I've never seen anyone exhibit such great footwork (not even Tim Duncan). Great defensive player as well, leading the NBA in blocks since it was recorded as a stat.

Anyone else agree? I wish I was privledged enough to have watched some of these guys play.

[cyanide]

A young Hakeem was the Stoudemire/Amare at the time. Goddamn, they don't show enough footage, but Hakeem was a frequent flyer when Sampson was still around.

I agree with you, Axel, Hakeem had outstanding fundamentals. Outstanding.

[shadowgrin]

A young Hakeem was the Stoudemire/Amare at the time

Quit smoking them funny cigarettes cyanide.

[grusom]

I don't think there's any point arguing that Dwight Howard jumps higher than Hakeem and the Admiral, but can you name ane 7 foot centers besides Howard who is more athletic than any of them?

I still consider Amare a PF, and in terms of strength he is no where near Hakeem and Robinson.

[shadowgrin]

A young Shaq.

[grusom]

A young Shaq.

Point taken.

I was actually thinking of the NBA today though.

The only one I can think of is Tyson Chandler, and again, he isn't half as strong as any of them. If Oden come back at full strength he could be another possibility.

[shadowgrin]

Oden can't jump as high as Dwight. Stronger, maybe.

[grusom]

Oden can't jump as high as Dwight. Stronger, maybe.

I wouldn't limit the measurement of someones athleticism to his jumping ability. Speed, quickness, strength and stamina also count. Besides, if you read me post again you'll see I wasn't saying that Oden (or Chandler) could jump as high as Howard, but that they were the only ones I could think of who compared to Olajuwon and Robinson in terms of overall athletic ability.

The only 7 footers I can think of who has the same overall athletic ability as Howard is Chamberlain and as you said, a young Shaq (his superior strength would compensate for his inferior jumping ability).