Just to make my fellow 30-something NBA fans feel old...

[Andrew]

It depends what you mean by "problem". I'd consider flopping and certain inconsistencies/weirdness with the rules to be more objectively problematic, but in terms of the style of play I find most entertaining, I'm not a big fan of extended three-point shootouts, and miss some of the battles in the paint we saw in the past.

[big-shot-ROB]

I don't know how many of you are into soccer. This year died on of the most iconic and revolutionary player and coach of all-time: Johan Cruyff. Cruyff was revolutionary in a way he was the first one who thought some simple soccer facts were really efficient.

One of his most iconic quotes defines FCBarcelona today and was a simple thing nobody had ever thought about: If you have the ball, the other team doesn't, consequetly, they can't score.

I am explaining this because the NBA is turning into this today. 3 is bigger than 2, right? So if a team hits a lots of 3, will have the advantatge over the opponent. This is evolution of basketball, and I am pleased with it. It is easy we fall into nostalgia, and we consider the eras that occured during our childhood or our youth ages (15-30) the best ones, but I feel today NBA players are better than previous ones. And is because evolution occurs this way, everything gets better because it has a past and a base to build over, bigger the base, better the improvement.

Shooting is a nearly necessary ability in today's NBA. Defense has get more complex and now you actually have to have technique and high IQ to not commit fouls. Zone defense improves team defenses and forces offensive players to read better the floor, look for teammates and understand better the defense they're facing.

Current players have their flaws obviously: fame and glamour have gained a strong role in today's NBA, this resulting in some loss of: competition, effort, offense over defense and self-discipline.

Rules have obviously helped get the sport better ability-wise. Hand-checking, vertical rule and more force players to learn how to play proper defense without being dirty. I like T's and fines for floppers and taunters, though I'd like to see them get more strict when it comes to flopping fines.

I don't like T's for trashtalking. Taunting comes from self-ego and emotion, which is a sign of no respect for opponents, something that should totally be erased from sports competition. Trashtalking requires mental thoughness, both from the trashtalker and the reciever. Occurs during the game and doesn't come from self-ego.

What I feel is wrong with the NBA right now is that they have tried to erase dirtiness from the league that hard, they have removed thoughness and competition along thw way.

[Andrew]

I wouldn't say that today's players are necessarily better. I think that the greats from recent eras are certainly comparable to the greats of the past, and in some cases at least can be mentioned in the same breath, but to suggest they're definitely superior does venture into "newer is always better" territory, which isn't automatically the case.

We can certainly fall victim to nostalgia and that does admittedly drive a lot of arguments, but at the same time we're also so aware of that these days that sometimes we downplay things from the past, under the idea that "Oh it wasn't that good, it's just nostalgia and the fact it's been around for ages/happened a long time ago." By that logic, you could say that Justin Bieber's music is better than The Beatles.



There does seem to be this notion that the 80s and 90s were somehow a Dark Age in the NBA, and I think part of it is a backlash to how often it's held in high regard as a Golden Era. It's funny because it kind of gets this from proponents of both earlier and later eras. A lot of the criticisms that advocates for earlier eras made about the 80s and 90s are dismissed as "bitterness" and "hating" when they're made about today's game. Likewise, the same kind of arguments that are made in favour of today's league were dismissed when used to defend the 80s and 90s against criticism in comparisons to previous eras. As I said, there seems to be a big backlash against the 80s and 90s, to the point where it can't win.

A perfect example of this would be a comparison I once saw regarding Jerry West and Michael Jordan. It was suggested that West's accomplishments - particularly his scoring - were more impressive because he didn't have a three-point line to work with. Now you have players being called superior to the 80s and 90s counterparts because of their usage of the three-point line, which is in complete contrast to the previous argument! In other words, the players of the 80s and 90s are supposedly inferior to the earlier eras because they had a three-point line to work with, but somehow also inferior to today's players who use the three-point line even more than they do.

I do think there are a lot of great things about today's game, and we need to be careful about not giving them their due because of our reverence for previous eras. At the same time, we also need to be careful when putting things in historical context, and declaring what's new to be an improvement, and what's current to be the best.

I touched on this in another thread, but watching MJ's 63 point game against the Celtics a couple of months ago, I was struck by how the commentators were marvelling at his performance, but not getting ahead of themselves in lauding it as The Greatest Performance Ever. As time has gone on, there's been this habit of trying to hype up every big game a current player has as one of the best performances in history, even before the final buzzer sounds. There's no patience, no waiting to put it in historical context, no hesitation about the use of hyperbole. There's a sense of "this is the best because it's happening now", logic that's just as faulty as "this is the best because it happened a long time ago". I'd argue that the former is actually worse, because at least the latter has had time to be put into appropriate historical context, and thoroughly analysed.

I would like to see some toughness back in the league; real toughness, not what passes for toughness with guys like Draymond Green and Matt Barnes. I'd definitely like to see more competitiveness in the All-Star game again, mixed with the showmanship and playground atmosphere it's also long been known for. I'd like to see some of the great post play of previous eras return, and certain rules ironed out. But I also think that we see some great basketball these days, and that on top of being extremely talented at the sport, today's players know how to put on a show. The game has evolved, and it hasn't all been bad. Some things I like better than others, some things from previous eras I definitely miss. But while we're dusting off things from the 90s, I would have to say that to this day...

[big-shot-ROB]

I touched on this in another thread, but watching MJ's 63 point game against the Celtics a couple of months ago, I was struck by how the commentators were marvelling at his performance, but not getting ahead of themselves in lauding it as The Greatest Performance Ever. As time has gone on, there's been this habit of trying to hype up every big game a current player has as one of the best performances in history, even before the final buzzer sounds. There's no patience, no waiting to put it in historical context, no hesitation about the use of hyperbole. There's a sense of "this is the best because it's happening now", logic that's just as faulty as "this is the best because it happened a long time ago". I'd argue that the former is actually worse, because at least the latter has had time to be put into appropriate historical context, and thoroughly analysed.

Totally agree with this. There seems to be a rush to compare current players to past ones, predicting who will make the Hall of Fame even if they are just rookies. I think the overhype problem is clearly seen with prospects who are not even in college, who play in highschool.

[Andrew]

I think that's something that originally took a little away from LeBron James' mystique upon entering the league. Obviously he's an all-time great, and his legacy in the NBA has lived up to the hype (and then some). However, he was getting national (and international) recognition before he was even eligible for the Draft, well on his way to becoming a household name when he was still attending classes in high school. We knew all about him well before he entered the league; he was expected to be a big deal from a young age, and then he was.

Of course, not only does it sometimes feel forced in terms of creating new stars, it's also setting some players up to fail. Not every promising young player can be LeBron James, and the bar can be set way too high.

[Sauru]

It depends what you mean by "problem". I'd consider flopping and certain inconsistencies/weirdness with the rules to be more objectively problematic, but in terms of the style of play I find most entertaining, I'm not a big fan of extended three-point shootouts, and miss some of the battles in the paint we saw in the past.

thats pretty much what i was getting at. the flopping and even worse imo is the offensive player jumping into the defender and being sent to the line. i was watching old videos of bird last night and thinking how different the game was called back then. i get the flopping to draw a call and i get that its hard to call it as a ref but its pretty easy to see a player who jumps into another. the league puts too much emphasis on the offense now.

also in the past if green was kicking people in the balls there would have been a fight but since they have cracked down on fighting so much he can pretty much freely kick whoever he wants whenever.

as for the actual game play? yeah i miss the big man game also but its not even in my top 5 problems with the league, maybe not top ten

[Andrew]

Yeah, I'm not in favour of brawls and outright dirty play, but I can't imagine Green getting away with nutshots in a league where guys like Charles Oakley were playing. "Messages" would be sent.

[Patr1ck]

Pierce is retiring at the end of the season, and reportedly will sign a one day deal with Boston so that he can retire a Celtic. I expect that Dirk and Vince will end up being the last two players from the 90s in the league.

Anyone remember who the last player from the 80s was? I have a feeling it was Cliff Robinson.

You are right, according to the 89 draft. I thought it might have been Shawn Kemp since he made comeback attempts, but they never happened.

[Leander]

There are things I like about today's game, but I do get a bit weary of the impromptu three-point contests at times, and miss the strong post play of previous eras. We might see it come back though, with players like Karl-Anthony Towns, Joel Embiid, and of course DeMarcus Cousins.

Why did the 76ers pick Embiid as they already picked Okafor last season?
EDIT Just read he was drafted by the 76s some years ago but missed all previous seasons with an injury....so Okafor was drafted with Embiid already on the team (but injured).

[mp3]

They actually drafted Noel the year before listed as a center who they knew would miss time then the next year drafted Embiid also knowing he would miss time then took Okafor.

3 centers in 3 years.

[NovU]

And guess what. Looks like Nowitzki is being shut down indefinitely. 90s disappearing fast.

[Andrew]

It's a shame, he's been relatively healthy for most of his career.

[air gordon]

IAs time has gone on, there's been this habit of trying to hype up every big game a current player has as one of the best performances in history, even before the final buzzer sounds. There's no patience, no waiting to put it in historical context, no hesitation about the use of hyperbole. There's a sense of "this is the best because it's happening now"

this was a well thought out post but who is saying these hyperbolic comments? off the top of my head i don't think we hear anything ridiculous like that since bill walton left the color commentating gig for NBC/(abc too??). and i don't even think he was serious.

I would like to see some toughness back in the league; real toughness, not what passes for toughness with guys like Draymond Green and Matt Barnes.

i think Green has some issues but these guys are loud mouthed and are instigators. Opponents hate playing against Barnes but a lot of his former teammates praise him as being a great teammate.

blame it on the players ridiculously high contracts. the owners and the league want to protect their investments err i mean stars.

[Andrew]

Aside from fans getting carried away, ESPN tends to be an offender in that regard. Although, Jeff Van Gundy tends to be the voice of reason for the network.

[air gordon]

lol who cares about what the fans say. everyone has a broadcasted opinion now with social media.

are you referring to ESPN/ABC commentators/color guys for the games?

aside from the nba tip off/pregame show and the game broadcasts, i don't watch ESPN.

[Andrew]

For sure, everyone's entitled to their take, and the rest of us can certainly take it or leave it. It's just interesting that it seems to be a more common attitude these days. I think the media definitely perpetuates it, but like I said, we've also become very aware of the nostalgia filter, and cautious about holding things in high esteem just because they're older and/or we grew up with them, to the point where we forget that some things were that good. It's also easy to get caught up in the moment.

As far as ESPN is concerned, you do hear some of it during games. Some of their writers and analysts definitely subscribe to the idea that if you don't think what's happening now is the Greatest Thing Ever, you're bitter, blinded by nostalgia, and living in the past. J.A. Adande seems to fall back on that argument a bit.

[Bruce]

what makes me feel old, is that basketball players younger than me are retiring.

[Andrew]

I'm still a few of years away from that, though technically speaking there has been Greg Oden, who's four years younger than me. But that's a special case.

[air gordon]

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Fair enough. I don't pay attention to the booyah network anymore and ignore social media so I guess I'm missing out for better or worse. I will tune into Zach Lowe podcast though

The historic season GSW had last year was very enjoyable not listening or reading any hype/hater material.

Reminded me of watching ljames first nba game at a bar. There was no volume so all you saw was the game action. It was awesome watching the then young athletic freak running on the break and exploding at the basket

[Andrew]

Interesting, I imagine that would make a difference. Perhaps I should watch more games with the sound muted!

[Jeffx]

Yeah, I'm not in favour of brawls and outright dirty play, but I can't imagine Green getting away with nutshots in a league where guys like Charles Oakley were playing. "Messages" would be sent.

Forget Oakley, imagine what would have happened when cats like Wes Unseld, Willis Reed, Dave Cowens, Paul Silas & Maurice Lucas were playing?

[Andrew]

I imagine it'd be even rougher in that era!

Speaking of 90s nostalgia, though...

phpBB [video]

[Dee4Three]

I imagine it'd be even rougher in that era!

Speaking of 90s nostalgia, though...

phpBB [video]

That will forever make me thing of NBA Live 2000 (With Tim Duncan on the cover) for the PC, it was on the soundtrack. I played so much of that game on my crappy little monitor. It was so fun.

Still one of the best NBA Live games ever.

[Andrew]

Agreed on all counts. NBA Live 2000 actually had the original song, but it would've been cool if they had the NBA mix. Speaking of NBA rap songs, here's another one from the closing credits of Al-New Dazzling Dunks & Basketball Bloopers.

phpBB [video]

[j.23]

Who would've thought after all this time Vince Carter would still be playing. I remember a lot of people thought he would be toast after his fallout with Toronto. Glad he's happy and content with where he is now at this point in his career. Old man still has some hops too.